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The Last Jedi SPOILER Thread

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This is a thread for discussing The Last Jedi and for discussing spoiler material- that way, spoilers won't infect the other threads.

 

Also, it probably wouldn't be a terrible idea to use the spoiler tags here, just in case.  You don't want to be the one to ruin it for someone, even if they accidentally clicked on in here.  

 

So just to be totally clear, if you're reading this thread, you will see spoilers.  You really can't complain if you continue at this point.

 

So, with that out of the way...

 

What did you guys think?  

 

Personally, I mostly really liked it, but the big complaint I have is how small the galaxy felt in it.

 

Need to attack a star destroyer?  Send in Pow alone, then send like 6 bombers and an A-Wing in later.

Need to send our heroes on a mission?  Just send two of them (one who literally just joined the Resistance after leaving the FO), with no martial backup.

Does the Resistance have a fleet?  Well, they have a capital ship, a frigate, and a transport...

By the end of the film, as far as I can tell the entire Resistance can fit aboard the Millennium Falcon.

 

I get what they were doing by trying to keep the Resistance as the underdogs, but I think the OT did this so much better.  Think the Death Star Run- we have a dozen or so fighters, and even see two squadrons go at the trench before Luke even gives it a try- idk if I even know the pilots' names, outside of their titles ("gold leader" etc).  Sure, eventually Luke is one of the few people left, but that's just because he's the last hope, not because he was the first and only hope. 

 

The second death star is also a good example.  The Rebels are still the underdogs, even though they have a larger fleet than they used to.  We see this not only in their numbers, but their variety.  The Empire has dozens of Star Destroyers and a bajillion TIEs.  Every thing is uniform, everything has its place, everything is manufactured.  The Rebels have a motley crew of all different types of ships and fighters, so we know they really had to scramble to get this fleet together.

 

At this point, it feels like Poe and Leia are two leaders without an army.  And for this reason, I think one big thing should be considered- we're probably not getting "First Order Assault" anytime soon.  4 Resistance soldiers would be a pretty noticeable departure at this point if they were on some other mission.  

 

Anyway, would love to hear your thoughts on this, and also if you think this movie also makes FOA unlikely.

 

Also, I have a theory about EPIX that I'll post later.

 

 

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I don't know how to do spoiler tags so

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I think this movie just covers less time than any other movie so far. It's maybe 1 day worth of events for the Resistance, so all the stuff with Rey is happening earlier and over a longer time period. So that makes everything seem smaller - they don't have time to travel to a bunch of different planets and include a bunch of new groups of people.

And I agree - the Resistance seems small because it is small. That's why they're trying to get help from all their allies across the galaxy, to form that ragtag fleet again, because they'll need it when they finally face down the First Order.

As for Poe facing down the Star Destroyer alone, they seem to comment on that in the movie - that it's foolhardy and, often, a needless risk. Maybe that was the plan he wanted to do, despite resistance from his commanding officers.

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I don't think I hated it as much as most people, but I did feel extremely disappointed. I felt like it completely collapsed halfway through the movie. It all started with the "light speed" tracking encounter and went downhill from there (among all of the story lines). Like I mean that time point in the movie. 

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Overall, I think most people are liking it.  And despite my critiques, I'd say it's at least in my top 4, if not higher.

 

As for the scale- I get the Resistance is small.  But that small?  It just seems too much to me.  Like, we have Holdo, Leia, and Poe all leading what effectively seems like it could be well less than 100 people.

 

 

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Didnt like it at all...

 

the luke stuff was the only good stuff for me, maybe because I only like OT.

BB-8 driving an at-st. no thanks.

pointless subplot with finn and rose.

Finn should have saved rose, shows that he likes her, and not just that she was gushing over him, that it was mutual.

why didn't purple haired lady, just tell Poe what they were doing with the smaller ships being undectable, it meant they would not have to have done that pointless casino mission.  pointless mission.. nothing came from it.

Admiral Ackbar should have been the purple haired lady. it would have been cool to see him butt heads with Poe. 

******* Porgs were annoying, one shot of them would have been fine.

Flying space leia was silly.

put a shirt on joke, and put you on hold joke were forced and fell flat

the running out of gas, stay out of cannons range plot, felt like they had written them selves out of ideas. the first order  should have had so many different strategies for that scenario. it was boring cutting back to there all the time.

still hate all the carried over ideas from the force awakens.

the first order should have been called the resistance and been smaller but strategic force, that disrupted the republic.

Edited by Spidey NZ

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I don't understand why it has been so hard for the First Order to scramble fighters immediately, in both of these movies. I also refuse to believe that "come back, we can't cover you" is an appropriate order to give after 3 TIEs manage to knock out the hanger AND the bridge all by themselves. Those Star Destroyers could have just dumped their stock of starfighters onto that sad looking Resistance fleet, roll credits.

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Cross posted from another forum. It's a couple posts mashed into one, apologies for the wall 'o text.

It was great. What they did with the lore, the universe, etc., I've never been more interested in what's going to come next. Some people are going to hate hate HATE parts of it though, which fills me with joy.

Kylo Ren continues to be great. He's perfectly written, cast, and acted. Just... MMM. SO well done. Rey too, but I feel like Kylo's character could easily be too over the top or not menacing, but Driver nails it. That line he had about Rey's lineage? "You're nothing... but not to me." PERFECT. That is the perfect line for that character, the perfect line for a dude trying to exert power over a woman coming into her own... just absolutely nailed it.

Possibly my favorite aspect of the movie was the fact that it's so GD STAR WARS while not being afraid to shed the baggage that often brings with it. Luke gets his lightsaber back? Chuck it. Who are Rey's parents? Scrubs. BEAUTIFUL. Rey and Kylo Force texting one another? That "you up" moment where he's got no shirt on? Just great. Yoda trolling Luke, while Obi-Wan and Anakin are nowhere to be seen? And it looks like they used the actual puppet??? Man. The casino stuff was good, nice to see a part of that universe that isn't just space pew or ice / forest battles.

That saber duel with Rey and Kylo working together was great. The last battle on Salty Hoth (fairly sure that's actually what it's called) was great. Such good combat in this one.

Poe is solid, Finn is solid, Rose is solid... almost everyone is just cruising, growing, and is generally well written.

And I cannot say enough about Luke. He's exactly what was needed to close his character arc. He gets to see everyone he cares about and says goodbye, and he goes out on just the perfect note.

The scene where we got to see how the First Order keeps their suits pressed cracked me up.

People are going to hate the Leia bait and switch. The theater was cracking up when she started flying back to the ship. This is the kind of stuff that "real" Star Wars nerds loathe, and I love to watch them loathe it. It was pretty goofy though. :P

I think the middle dragged a little too much, and the plan to turn the ship around and light speed jump it into Snoke's ship was oddly edited or something? It felt like the woman who stayed behind to pilot the ship took her sweet time to do that? Phasma and Snoke were a little disappointing, though the latter is in service of Kylo's awesomeness, so I can't complain too much. Did they even show how Finn got back up out of that pit Phasma knocked him into? That was weird.

Anyway... whew. I am surprised to some extent that the praise for the movie has been so high. I'd figure that the gags, Leia in spaaaaaaaace, the casino bit, and the pacing would get people to knock it a bit, but... shows you what I know.

Man. What a ride.

Also it's funny to me that people have cooled so much on TFA. It's not a perfect movie by any means, but it is exactly the movie that it needed to be. TLJ really drives this home. You just don't get this movie without that one setting it up more or less perfectly.

---- SECOND POST ----

After sleeping on it, some more thoughts.

I remember 10 minutes in being all, "oh people are going to hate the tone." And 45 minutes in being all, "man people are NEVER going to stop whining about that scene. EVER."  And then after the somewhat laggy and oddly paced middle... what a ride.

I play Star Wars Destiny somewhat competitively and X-Wing casually, and I know a ton of people that will HATE this movie. Hate what it means. Hate what it did. Hate what it implies. But I haven't been this excited about the main characters in the story since the Episode I casting revealed Anakin would be super young, which deflated my hype. There's just SO MUCH potential, even if MANY people who consider themselves big fans are going to feel that between TFA and TLJ the franchise is no longer "theirs." How on point that notion is given the themes of the movie.

So well done. I can't wait to see it again.

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Edit: thank you @Fightwookies

 

 

the space physics were atrocious in my opinion.  The falling laser shots, the loss of control and speed on the unfueled ships really just got my gander up.  And the whole plot line of "we don't have enough fuel" felt really cheap and shoddy.  

The whole rose/finn sublot felt so forced, poorly timed, and meaningless.  I really liked the character of rose and thought she was cool, but the story arc she was apart of trash.  

I used to think bb-8 was pretty bb-great, but now i'm showering him with bb- hate.  That droid's antics really rubbed me the wrong way with how "deus ex" they were.

Finn is a useless character. period.  He does nothing to help drive the story or affect the plot.   Events happen to him, not because of him.  He is a log along for the ride.

 

I loved the Luke/rey scenes, even if it felt more like mark hamill than luke skywalker.  I'm ok with that.  I liked how they tied it into the ship chase with the connection between rey and kylo.  The timing did seem off though.  

Phasma felt like another wasted opportunity AGAIN.  I'm not going to put her as dead though.  We saw that she has very special armor (including plot variety) and they will bring her back to probably fail AGAIN.

The whole conflict felt bad because all of the resistances hope rested on first order incompetence, which there was WAY to much of. 

They made the first order fleets appear massive while ultimately doing nothing.  The star destroyers were set pieces that did nothing for them.  the only ships that fired were the dreadnaught and snoke's ship.  I also hated the hyperspace tracking BS.  It felt bad, and made them resort to the fuel point. 

I'm ok with flying space leia surviving.  It looked like ****, and it would have been an easy way to kill leia off, but as someone that has been reading up on EU, i'm fine with that whole bit.  

I'm fine with kylo killing snoke.  Would it have been cool to know more about him?  Sure, but I feel like this helps push the story along. 

 

Did I find this movie entertaining?  Yes I did, and I enjoyed watching it, but I would not say it was a good movie because there are just too many holes in it.

Edited by MadFuhrer

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I don't know if I can link to it directly since a tiny amount of the language in it would be filtered out here... but I agree with Film Crit Hulk's take on the movie almost entirely and I'm sure it could be easily found with some light googling.

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I wish this movie was never made.

- Luke has been an inspiration and a legend for the past several decades. Disney Star Wars just flushed his legacy down the toilet. 

- Leia resurrecting herself from the dead and flying through space? WTF?

- Ray, Finn, and Rose - feel like byproducts of the Disney corporation. I could not connect with them at all.

- Kylo Ran is more annoying than needy than a terrifying villain like Vader.

- Snoke is not even a villain. Sitting in a sauna coat on a throne babbling about his power? Snoke is no Palpatine.

- The Force was sacred and philosophical phenomena in the original trilogy. Disney turned the force into a Wi-Fi hotspot. 

- Yoda was a teacher full of wisdom. The CGI Yoda that popped out of nowhere is more annoying than anything else.

- Overall, the whole movie seemed to me like a diarrhea combined with CGI.

The only new Star Wars that I really enjoyed was Rogue One. It feels like an actual Star Wars movie. Interesting ships, vehicles, worlds, and characters. Good humour and villains. 

Good thing we have Star Wars Imperial Assault and Star Wars rebellion to create our own proper stories. ?

 

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I watched it this afternoon.  From reading some of the comments here, it seems like some people will never be happy with a movie.  I dunno, I guess maybe I just don't know movie stuff very well, but I loved it!  I heard that someone said it was "the second-best Star Wars movie without Han Solo in it" (behind Rogue One obviously), and I agree.

I had no trouble with the Resistance fleet being so small, and with everyone being able to fit on the Millennium Falcon in the end.  I think that's kind of the point of the movie: they're almost completely wiped out, but they still have hope that they can spark the flames of a rebellion.

I enjoyed the mind-bridge interplay between Kylo and Rey, and it was a great moment when Snoke said that he was the one who orchestrated it.  

Kylo's betrayal of Snoke was excellent, plus the fight with the Royal Guards afterward.

I did think that the Battle-of-Hoth-repeat scene was a bit forced, though.  They could've done without the trenches and AT-ATs and Golan Turrets, IMHO.  There are many ways that an assault on a Rebel base can play out.

I loved how Luke toyed with Kylo to buy time for everyone to escape, and how Holdo turned her empty ship into a light-speed cruise missile.

Luke and R2's reunion was heartwarming, just like Luke and Chewie's was heartbreaking.

My biggest question now is (also heartbreaking), since Leia lived until the end of this movie, how will they show her in the next one?  I guess they'll have to do CGI; I hope it works out better than the CGI did in Rogue One.

Edited by thereisnotry

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7 hours ago, subtrendy said:

 

  Hide contents

 

 

Overall, I think most people are liking it.  And despite my critiques, I'd say it's at least in my top 4, if not higher.

 

As for the scale- I get the Resistance is small.  But that small?  It just seems too much to me.  Like, we have Holdo, Leia, and Poe all leading what effectively seems like it could be well less than 100 people.

 

 

 

 

That’s what makes it a Resistance as opposed to a Rebellion.

I had fun.  There were a lot of things that were easy to pick a part but the original movies could be given the same treatment.

We walked out and my girlfriend said “was it me, or did the whole Rey/Kylo mind-bridge thing feel like awkward online dating.”  I felt that summed it well.

I’m wondering if there gearing up for a Rey and Poe love story.  Only because when she introduced herself he responded with “I know.”

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1 hour ago, robertpolson said:

- Luke has been an inspiration and a legend for the past several decades. Disney Star Wars just flushed his legacy down the toilet.

Luke's legacy was handled perfectly. It is completely intact. Having the absolutely necessary deconstruction of what it means to be a Jedi, what it means to use the Force not only happen, but come from Luke's own mouth and actions was what the series needed. The Force, the galaxy... they're bigger than Luke, the Skywalkers, or the Jedi / Sith.

So, so, so much of what the franchise had become was mired in dynastic succession. It's old, it's boring, and it makes a GALAXY where allegedly anything can happen feel small.

I don't blame people for not liking what happened, but as someone who adores the franchise, and who adores the characters, but was tired of SO MUCH of the fiction be anchored by Anakin's descendants... I couldn't be happier.

And Hamill absolutely killed it. A tremendous performance.

1 hour ago, robertpolson said:

Snoke is not even a villain. Sitting in a sauna coat on a throne babbling about his power? Snoke is no Palpatine.

To expect Snoke to be the new Palpatine is to miss the point. Palpatine failed. Snoke failed. Kylo will fail. What is one of the most important differences between the Dark Side and the Light? This movie summed it up well... the best Jedi / Force users allow failure to be their teacher. The Sith / Dark users do not. Also... Palpatine spent a lot of time on a throne babbling about power. :P

2 hours ago, robertpolson said:

- The Force was sacred and philosophical phenomena in the original trilogy. Disney turned the force into a Wi-Fi hotspot. 

I have no idea how anyone could feel this way after TLJ. Literally everything Luke, Yoda, and Rey say about it is completely contrary to this.

2 hours ago, robertpolson said:

- Yoda was a teacher full of wisdom. The CGI Yoda that popped out of nowhere is more annoying than anything else.

I am pretty sure they used the Yoda puppet and not CGI.

2 hours ago, robertpolson said:

I wish this movie was never made.

This movie is exactly what the franchise needed.

2 hours ago, robertpolson said:

- Leia resurrecting herself from the dead and flying through space? WTF?

This WAS pretty goofy. :P

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I didn't hate the movie. But I was very, very disappointed. I felt that they had the seeds of some good ideas, but they squandered the potential and didn't really have much pay off in the short term to make up for it. A lot of the movie was straight up boring, and that's really bad for a SW movie. Having said that, there were some great moments, and it felt unpredictable for a SW movie...But overall they were moments in a much longer film, and unpredictable does not inherently make it good. On specific things:

The First Order vs the Resistance: I hated the whole lack of 'logistics' with the 'war'. The First Order apparently being able to conquer the galaxy in a matter of weeks with no explanation at all, and having all this super advanced technology that they got from no where. The Resistance consisting of three capital ships. The Resistance 'allies' who weren't defined in any way. The complete lack of any actual battle tactics or logic to set up the plot/'cool scenes' that weren't actually that cool. Overall the whole thing is just a **** mess that makes no sense, and it largely comes down to a lack of world building. Which is ****ing ridiculous for Star Wars.

The whole 'chase' plot: Ugh. Terrible. Stupid, plot holes, pointless. There was no sense of tension to it, no reason to care. Admiral Purple Hair butting heads with Poe was pointless because she had no reason to hide the information and it was done to cheaply draw out the story. The whole idea of sneaking on to Snoke's ship was dumb, the Casino planet side trip was awful (I could write a lot more about it, but yeah. Just garbage). Maz cameo would have been great it anyone gave a **** about Maz, shady thief guy ends up being shady thief guy (and somehow knows about the plan that none of the other characters knew about???). Also he wasn't Lando, screw you guys, Lando would have at least helped salvage that mess. Back to the chase, Admiral Purple Hair had to make a HEROIC SACRIFICE YOU SHOULD REALLY CARE ABOUT by staying on the ship....then spends the whole time looking out the window? Oh wait, she suddenly realizes after the plan fails and the First Order blows up half the remaining rebels that she can use the ship as a super space bullet. ****, you'd think maybe someone might have thought of using that earlier in the series (but hey, it did at least look REALLY freaking cool, I'll give them that).

Poe: Gets a win by being rash, but gets a lot of people killed. Then decides to do the exact same thing. But at the end he learns his lesson, and doesn't get everyone killed to win! Yay! Except....they would have just all died anyway if it wasn't for something he had no way of predicting, so they probably actually should have bet everything? I don't know. Somehow that makes him the leader now. Which is fine, but the way they got there was just very poorly done.

Humour: The movie actually had a lot more humour than I expected. A lot of it wasn't necessarily bad, but it didn't really feel like a Star Wars movie. Like Poe is apparently Tony Stark now, I want him to get an X-Wing that turns into power armour.

BB8: Okay, so he's R2 now. That's fine I guess. He's fine. BB9 is stone cold badass, maybe he can become the main villain.

Leia: I liked Leia well enough, not really surprising. I actually didn't mind the idea of her using the Force to save herself but (again) it was just done really shoddily. It should have been a quick thing, I can totally accept that Leia could have done some Force training, she's not the kind to leave an advantage like that off the table. But straight up being able to try through space and then it never being mentioned ever again? Stupid, stupid stupid. Also Carrie passing away unfortunately leaves them in a really bad position; with them saying they won't CGI Leia that pretty much leaves them killing her off screen or her being 'mysteriously absent'.

Finn and Rose: I really want to like Finn. He's charismatic, and he should fill a nice wild card in the series. But I just can't really give a **** about him. Rose was okay, but both of them being stuck in the worst parts of the movie really killed their potential as interesting characters.

Phasma: Just because people compare her to Boba Fett doesn't mean you have to give her the same level of screen time as Boba Fett. Sigh. I actually really enjoyed the fight scene with her, but it's about thirty seconds and that's it. I'm totally okay with her being dead, because they don't really need to mess it up a third time.

The last battle: Snore. SW has had a ton of amazing set piece battles, so you've got to do something special. Red stuff isn't enough. Honestly, this was just boring and felt ultimately pointless, not good for the film's climax. The main exception to this was the Falcon, because **** yeah Chewie and nostalgia and awesome. I was expecting Luke to show up in his X-Wing and bullseye the big stupid gun thing, and I'm kind of disappointed he didn't.

Chewie: Rrrrrrggggggggghhhhhh!

Porgs: I loved them. Cute as all ****, funny, but didn't actually take away from anything. I'm guessing most of the people who hate them went in to the film already hating them, and nothing would have changed their mind.

Rey: I don't hate Rey, and I think I liked her here more than TFA. But ultimately, she just feels too safe. I don't think there was ever any real tension of her being allowed to turn to the dark side, and ultimately that means nothing really happens with her story. I did like that she *wasn't* some established character's kid, that was a nice twist (considering this is SW).

Luke: I really liked Luke, although yeah - I think at least part of it was it felt like Hamill just being a cranky old man rather than Luke. But I enjoyed his characterization, I enjoyed his swagger, I enjoyed seeing what had happened and where it left him. But I can certainly understand why some people would hate it. And I really, really dislike them killing him off (or 'force ghosting' him), because I was pumped for him coming back in episode 9 and being a super badass (See you around, kid), and then NOPE, sorry suckers. Really put a downer on the end, and not the right kind of downer.

Yoda: So Yoda's Thor now. The staff is clearly Mjolnir in disguise. Seriously though, him showing up was a nice cameo but felt kind of silly; exactly what constraints are there on him as a force ghost, and why aren't there a bunch of them running around doing everything for everyone?

Kylo: Kylo gets a lot of flack, but I think he's a great character (he's just not the character a lot of people want). And they absolutely knocked it out of the park with him...until the end. He gets knocked out, Rey gets away without any kind of real resolution, and then he immediately goes back to being the whiny idiot that haters claim he is. Ugh. Way to **** it up. He really, really, really needed to evolve after killing Snoke if they wanted him to become the big bad; he didn't, and now there's no reason to give a **** about of him because it's almost inevitable we'll just get a rehash in Episode 9 until Rey beats him up again and he loses because he's the bad guy. Yaaaaay.

Snoke: Man, such a waste. I don't mind him dying; I do mind him dying with not even an attempt at giving him a backstory or making him anything more than Diet Palpatine. Silver lining: he definitely won the Pimp Lord of the Sith contest. I absolutely expected him resurrect like he was Dracula when we had the shot of his body, and I think with them failing to evolve Kylo that's the only way they could have salvaged it. And now, it's simply too late. Absolutely squandered potential.

And man, I think that's about enough.

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8 hours ago, thereisnotry said:
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I watched it this afternoon.  From reading some of the comments here, it seems like some people will never be happy with a movie.  I dunno, I guess maybe I just don't know movie stuff very well, but I loved it!  I heard that someone said it was "the second-best Star Wars movie without Han Solo in it" (behind Rogue One obviously), and I agree.

I had no trouble with the Resistance fleet being so small, and with everyone being able to fit on the Millennium Falcon in the end.  I think that's kind of the point of the movie: they're almost completely wiped out, but they still have hope that they can spark the flames of a rebellion.

I enjoyed the mind-bridge interplay between Kylo and Rey, and it was a great moment when Snoke said that he was the one who orchestrated it.  

Kylo's betrayal of Snoke was excellent, plus the fight with the Royal Guards afterward.

I did think that the Battle-of-Hoth-repeat scene was a bit forced, though.  They could've done without the trenches and AT-ATs and Golan Turrets, IMHO.  There are many ways that an assault on a Rebel base can play out.

I loved how Luke toyed with Kylo to buy time for everyone to escape, and how Holdo turned her empty ship into a light-speed cruise missile.

Luke and R2's reunion was heartwarming, just like Luke and Chewie's was heartbreaking.

My biggest question now is (also heartbreaking), since Leia lived until the end of this movie, how will they show her in the next one?  I guess they'll have to do CGI; I hope it works out better than the CGI did in Rogue One.

you pretty much summed up most of the best bits.  those ideas could have been stronger and streamlined.  you didnt mention Finn and rose plot, because it was pretty pointless. though Holdo should have been Ackbar.

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There were parts of it I didn’t like (many echo what’s been said already—the side plot that seemed pointless, the secret withheld by Holdo for no reason), but overall it’s at worst an 8.5/10 for me and I think I’ll grow to like it more (especially if E9 builds satisfyingly on what TLJ started). I really like the character arcs they cave us, love Kylo Ren, and thoroughly appreciated how they inverted all of the tropes from Empire. But I also love TFA, so I’m coming from a different place than some. 

-ryanjamal 

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Oh man. I just saw it today. I need to see it a second time, but I am highly suspect of anyone ranking this film anywhere near the OT. Idk where to rank it, to be honest. Some really great moments, but overall I feel...a massive letdown.  I think the sparkle of the awesome parts will be overshadowed by a plot so messy it makes you ask: Did Disney watch the prequels or just read the cliff notes?

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