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The Last Jedi SPOILER Thread

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I really liked it. I thought Hamill was great, every part he was in was well done. The highlights for me were the dialogue between him and YODA!! FRICKEN YODA!!! and him and Kylo Ren. The fight between the Praetorian Guards and Reylo was awesome.

I was very sad though when Ackbar met his demise, I get it, it was time.. but I was still sad. He was one of my favourite characters, RIP old friend. At least he got in some lines first. Fun fact, the ship they were on was called the Raddus.

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On 12/16/2017 at 8:29 AM, ryanjamal said:

There were parts of it I didn’t like (many echo what’s been said already—the side plot that seemed pointless, the secret withheld by Holdo for no reason), but overall it’s at worst an 8.5/10 for me and I think I’ll grow to like it more (especially if E9 builds satisfyingly on what TLJ started). I really like the character arcs they cave us, love Kylo Ren, and thoroughly appreciated how they inverted all of the tropes from Empire. But I also love TFA, so I’m coming from a different place than some. 

-ryanjamal 

I agree 100%.

I will say one thing about the pointless side plot: at least it was exciting.  The side plot in the Phantom Menace were political snooze fests, whereas this one had character building (and bonding); a Lando-esque, guilt-ridden betrayal; and an epic showdown.  It was pointless, but it was fun to watch.  Also we got to see the “other side,” until now it was sketchy dive bars that showed off the aliens and this time it was a high end casino.  Both full of criminals, but still.

 

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2 hours ago, FrogTrigger said:

I really liked it. I thought Hamill was great, every part he was in was well done. The highlights for me were the dialogue between him and YODA!! FRICKEN YODA!!! and him and Kylo Ren. The fight between the Praetorian Guards and Reylo was awesome.

I was very sad though when Ackbar met his demise, I get it, it was time.. but I was still sad. He was one of my favourite characters, RIP old friend. At least he got in some lines first. Fun fact, the ship they were on was called the Raddus.

Yoda part was awesome. Yoda troll for the win! And they had the books in the falcon later, so what he was saying had this double meaning :)

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I quite liked it.

Good-

Kylo and Rey, both the bonding conversations and the big fight.

Snokes surprising and gruesome end.

New red guards.

Phasma finally doing something.

LUKE!

Two cool new planets. Visually Krayt or whatever the red and white mining planet was called was stunning.

Casino planet was cool. I don't care if it was a pointless sub plot, still cool, still fun to watch.

Flashbacks were cool.

Poe putting Hux on hold..

Big walkers.

Porgs were fine.

Bad-

Luke dying for no apparent reason.

Leia not dying. Seemed like she couldve done what Holdo did and Holdo couldve been in ix.

Luke dying for no apparent reason.

How small the resistance was... I kept thinking didnt they win thiis battle 30 years ago, and again in force awakens... felt pointless

R2 did almost nothing...

Leias weird spaceflight...

Paige dying in the first few minutes (my girls were excited about her)

Hux wasnt intimidating at all.

Luke dying for no apparent reason

The big frog nuns were kind of silly.

No real Luke battle! I thought he'd be bad ***. 

No Knights of Ren! Could of had Luke and Rey take out a bunch...

Kind of wasted Del Toro...

And Luke dying for no apparent reason.

Overall, loved it and want to see it again. I never got into the big space battles as much anyway, always liked the characters fighting more... guess that's why I play IA, not X Wing.

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3 hours ago, Uninvited Guest said:

I agree 100%.

I will say one thing about the pointless side plot: at least it was exciting.  The side plot in the Phantom Menace were political snooze fests, whereas this one had character building (and bonding); a Lando-esque, guilt-ridden betrayal; and an epic showdown.  It was pointless, but it was fun to watch.  Also we got to see the “other side,” until now it was sketchy dive bars that showed off the aliens and this time it was a high end casino.  Both full of criminals, but still.

The "side quest" meandered too long, but it was far from pointless. It showed the human cost of the conflict and served to drive home the message that the Force doesn't belong to the Jedi and the Sith. Aside from the length, I really enjoyed it. That kid who picked up the broom at the end... that kid is US. It's a kid using the Force, looking up at the stars and wishing he was something more. That's me and my friends as kids with wiffle ball bats and nerf guns trying to block blaster fire like Luke did. Or us tying fishing line to stuff so we could pull it towards us with the Force.

It's interesting to me to see so many people (not you specifically, just speaking generally) be upset about a kid using the Force, or about Rey being "nobody." Rey is US. That kid is US. The Force belongs to US. The Skywalkers are rad, I get it. But we've got FORTY YEARS worth of stories about them.

One of the most interesting things to me about TLJ is that Kylo and Rey both end up moving beyond their pasts. Kylo wants to kill it, to bury it. Rey's acceptance of it lets her MOVE ON. This is great storytelling. Accept the past, learn from it... and then do not let it define you. That is what Rey does. That is what Luke does. That is what The Last Jedi does. And that is why they are so successful.

Edited by KalEl814

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2 hours ago, KalEl814 said:

The "side quest" meandered too long, but it was far from pointless. It showed the human cost of the conflict and served to drive home the message that the Force doesn't belong to the Jedi and the Sith. Aside from the length, I really enjoyed it. That kid who picked up the broom at the end... that kid is US. It's a kid using the Force, looking up at the stars and wishing he was something more. That's me and my friends as kids with wiffle ball bats and nerf guns trying to block blaster fire like Luke did. Or us tying fishing line to stuff so we could pull it towards us with the Force.

It's interesting to me to see so many people (not you specifically, just speaking generally) be upset about a kid using the Force, or about Rey being "nobody." Rey is US. That kid is US. The Force belongs to US. The Skywalkers are rad, I get it. But we've got FORTY YEARS worth of stories about them.

One of the most interesting things to me about TLJ is that Kylo and Rey both end up moving beyond their pasts. Kylo wants to kill it, to bury it. Rey's acceptance of it lets her MOVE ON. This is great storytelling. Accept the past, learn from it... and then do not let it define you. That is what Rey does. That is what Luke does. That is what The Last Jedi does. And that is why they are so successful.

Im not upset with them going with the force belongs to everything.  that was great. i liked all kylo, rey and Luke stuff.

Kids of today, dont want to be the kids in the movies, they have imaginations, they want to be Han and Luke. not broom kid.  child acting is always pretty cringe.

the side mission was pointless in the sense that if purple haired Admiral Holdo had told Poe the plan about slipping to the planet unnoticed, he wouldn't have sent finn and rose to that planet, that picks up an untrustworthy that ends up costing more republic resistance lives.

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7 hours ago, FrogTrigger said:

I was very sad though when Ackbar met his demise, I get it, it was time.. but I was still sad. He was one of my favourite characters, RIP old friend. At least he got in some lines first. Fun fact, the ship they were on was called the Raddus.

just imagine, if admiral Holdo was Ackbar, butting heads with Poe and then doing the ultimate sacrifice, with the hyperspace collision . that would have been great for fans 

Edited by Spidey NZ

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31 minutes ago, Majushi said:

I'm very torn about how I feel about The Last Jedi.

Some things in it were awesome, and some were bad.

And I'm not sure which outweighed which.

For me, I’m finding it is a bit of a choice. I want to like this movie, to not taint my Star Wars experience with regret when I watch this movie (which I will. A lot). So I’m deciding to focus on the positive.

Is that the most intellectually honest approach? Probably not. 

But I’ll be watching this movie, cheering the Falcon on and shouting “Pew pew!” with my son for decades to come. ?

-ryanjamal 

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46 minutes ago, ryanjamal said:

For me, I’m finding it is a bit of a choice. I want to like this movie, to not taint my Star Wars experience with regret when I watch this movie (which I will. A lot). So I’m deciding to focus on the positive.

Is that the most intellectually honest approach? Probably not. 

But I’ll be watching this movie, cheering the Falcon on and shouting “Pew pew!” with my son for decades to come. ?

-ryanjamal 

I am happy to accept that there are things I don't like, and that I can still enjoy it as another movie in my beloved universe.

But I am also of the opinion that I shouldn't blindly accept things I dislike because it's in my beloved universe.

Hence feeling quite torn.

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13 minutes ago, totalnoob said:

Anyone else excited to see what Rey’s lightsaber ends up being? You knew she would have to construct her own at some point, so I want to see if it’s a staff of some sort (something unique).

I'm also excited to see what she does next. I'd like the next movie to take place a few years later with a rebuilt Resistance force and Rey having already taught some new people who could then battle it out with the knights of Ren if they are still a thing. TLJ took place very soon after TFA and over such a short time period, felt like not much had changed.

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2 hours ago, totalnoob said:

Anyone else excited to see what Rey’s lightsaber ends up being? You knew she would have to construct her own at some point, so I want to see if it’s a staff of some sort (something unique).

I would really like to see that.

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On 12/17/2017 at 0:34 AM, TheWelcomeMat88 said:

Oh man. I just saw it today. I need to see it a second time, but I am highly suspect of anyone ranking this film anywhere near the OT. Idk where to rank it, to be honest. Some really great moments, but overall I feel...a massive letdown.  I think the sparkle of the awesome parts will be overshadowed by a plot so messy it makes you ask: Did Disney watch the prequels or just read the cliff notes?

I think anyone who goes into any of the new Star Wars films with the expectations that they will be anywhere near the OT is going to be sorely disappointed.  Growing up watching the OT, it is held in such high esteem and nothing will probably ever come close to how far I've built it up in my mind.

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Cross-posting my thoughts from the X-wing forum on this film. I saw it a second time and completely changed my thoughts on it:

Just came back from my second viewing. Initially I was pretty lukewarm on the film, but it is a lot better the second time around. There are a number of things that, frankly, seem outright stupid without knowing the direction the film is trying to take you, so many of the reactions here (including my own initial one) are understandable.

The primary theme of this film is the danger of hubris and the failure that it brings. Most of the major characters have to deal with this theme and either overcome their own pride or are destroyed by it.

Luke probably has the most development here. Post-RotJ Luke became a legend: a hero of the Rebellion and heir to the Jedi teachings. He saw raw power in Ben Solo and sought to pass on his teachings to him, but was blind to the darkness growing within Ben until it was too late. He failed Ben, but instead of confronting his problems he ran away from them and became secluded. It is not until Yoda appears to him that he realizes he needs to learn from his failures and secure the future of the next generation. That's why he projects onto Crait and stalls to allow the Resistance/Rebellion enough time to escape. So they can live to fight another day. I know many people were disappointed they didn't see Luke swoop in on an X-wing and confront Kylo in person, but honestly that goes against the whole point of the film. Luke isn't trying to be a hero anymore. He may be the strongest Force user in the galaxy, but even he can't take on the entire First Order on his own (as he tells Rey earlier in the film). He's no longer the kid from ESB who dashes off to Cloud City to confront Vader without a plan. He's grown to understand that saving the lives of those who can live to fight oppression another day is more important than his own pride. I thought Luke's arc was near perfect at the end of this film.

Many of the Resistance characters battle with this theme too, namely Poe, Finn, and Rose. Poe especially begins the film as a trigger-happy pilot more interested in hurting the FO than saving lives. With the initial battle and the subsequent failed mutiny he learns that heroism is not always the right choice. By the time we get to Crait you can see his growth into a capable commander in at least two scenes: when he orders the speeders to break off their attack run due to the mounting losses, and when he's the first person to realize Luke is on the planet to buy them time instead of fight the FO. I'm actually interested in seeing how this growth carries over to Episode 9. The Finn/Rose arc had many elements of this too, although I don't think it was handled as well as Poe's (more on that below). They both learn the same lesson as Poe by the end of the film as their plan fails and actually causes the deaths of several hundered Resistance fighters.

The FO suffers no shortage of arrogance. Their overconfidence in the wake of SKB's annihilation of the New Republic was readily apparent, although it seems mostly concetrated at the top. The opening scene shows this pretty clearly as Hux underestimates Poe's gambit. Meanwhile the unnamed Dreadnought commander seems pretty aware of what's happening: "we should've scrambled fighters 5 minutes ago!" and "he's taking out the surface cannons for a bombing run" (heavily paraphrased). Yet there's nothing he can do about it because the people above him (namely Hux) are too incompetent at their jobs. Snoke is another example of this. He is shown to be an incredibly powerful Force user throughout the film, yet he's so full of himself he doesn't realize that Kylo's about to betray him.

There isn't much to be said of Kylo and Rey that hasn't already been said. They had the most interesting arcs of the film (besides Luke) and it was a joy to see them both grow. Both of them finally choose to kill the past: Rey accepts her origins as a nobody and Kylo becomes his own man, "killing" both Snoke and Luke. I'm excited to see where Episode IX takes these two.

All that said there are still problems with the film even after second viewing. The premise of the sublight chase is pretty poorly thought out. Holdo's refusal to tell Poe of the evacuation plan is sort of perplexing. Leia's spacewalk is really cheesy. Most of the humor is actually pretty good but occasionally it kills the mood when it shouldn't. Hux devolving into a comic relief character was kind of sad. And finally, my biggest complaint is Canto Bight. It actually managed to be worse than I remembered from the first viewing. I understand the point of Finn and Rose's subplot as it relates to the main theme of the film. But this portion was still just a huge filler and felt like someone inserted a cheesy made-for-TV Disney movie about animal cruelty into a Star Wars movie. It was just baaaaaaad. When I rewatch TLJ, this is the part that I'm going to dread coming to every time, much like the Anakin/Padme scenes in AotC. One thing that I really hated was the ridiculous amount of plot armor on Finn and Rose. For a film that's not shy about killing off major characters, this just felt weird, especially in the context of what they did. Finn and Rose go on a highly risky mission to disrupt the FO tracking system, manage to completely and utterly fail, and on top of that get hundreds of Resistance fighters killed when DJ sells them out. And yet they come through all that relatively unscathed and don't seem to suffer any repurcussions? I get that the Resistance needs everyone they can get at this point, but it really rubbed me the wrong way compared to how we saw Poe and Luke take responsibility for their actions.

That was a lot to unpack but basically I really liked the movie the second time around. It's definitely flawed, but it has a nice message and tons of development for the major characters. Take out Canto Bight and it's basically a 9/10, but for now I'd say it ranks below the OT and just a bit below Rogue One. Miles better than TFA. I'm pretty excited for the future. Now that we've had a film exploring the danger of hubris, I'm hoping that we can see Kylo grow into an interesting villain for Episode IX. One thing TLJ was sorely missing was a strong, intelligent villain character, and I think that was almost by design. My biggest hope for IX is that Kylo becomes a credible foil for the heroes.

 

And a follow-up:

A lot of people argue that TLJ is a very different SW movie from the OT, and it some ways it is. But at its heart its covering a lot of the same themes we saw in the OT. The difference is that TLJ is a movie that attempts to bring us beyond where we ended in the OT.

Much like the OT, many of the failures of the Resistance and FO can be tracked back to their own arrogance. In RotJ the Rebellion rushes in to destroy the Death Star II, not even considering that it might be a trap set by the Emperor. But at the end of the day they attain a huge victory, because the Emperor's overconfidence was greater than theirs. They could've easily been slaughtered at the Battle of Endor, but they were saved. In TLJ we have a similar situation but instead the actions of Finn/Rose/Poe cause the Resistance to lose almost all of their number. We see the terrible consequences of their actions on screen and we see them learn from them (Poe most of all). Similarly Snoke falls prey to the very same overconfidence that Palpatine does. He's too full of himself and high on his own power to see his apprentice betray him. 

But here's the important thing: we're getting all of this in the second film of the series. TLJ feels very much like a mashup of ESB and RotJ, but it attempts to bring us beyond that. It's leading into an Episode IX that's going to feel nothing like we've seen before (at least I hope). As Kylo put it, they're trying to "kill the past." In a lot of ways this movie felt like the swansong of the OT. Luke overcomes his own legend and lets the Resistance live to fight another day in exchange for his life. Kylo kills Snoke, the evil mastermind behind the FO, before we ever get to the real climax of the series. Poe and the Resistance learn from their mistakes and taste defeat before going into their final battle against the FO in IX. My take on this film is that Rian Johnson is trying to evolve the series beyond the tropes of the OT. No more overconfident evil mastermind, no more lapdog Sith apprentice, no more needless heroism on the side of the Rebellion. Rian tried to resolve all these tropes in this film and have the characters learn from them to lead into a truly interesting setting for IX. We'll have a wiser Resistance, a more developed Rey, and a truly unique villain in Kylo once that film hits. I like to think that Luke's confrontation at the end was his final lesson to Kylo, and I really hope Kylo learns from it.

The question is whether JJ can pull it off. There's one criticism about the ST that I forgot to mention in my original post, and that's the lack of a visionary. JJ started us off with TFA but that film was sorely lacking in any sort of worldbuilding. On top of that, JJ left and Rian took over for TLJ. Now Rian is also leaving to make his own trilogy and we have JJ coming back for IX. Never thought I'd say it, but the ST really needed someone like George Lucas. The man may be a bad writer and terrible director, but he is an excellent worldbuilder and visionary. Without someone like him I fear the ST will end up feeling disjointed. I don't think JJ had the same themes in mind as Rian did when he made TFA. And if he doesn't we might end up with an Episode IX that undoes everything Rian tried to build up. That's my biggest fear. I hope it's unfounded.

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52 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

He failed Ben, but instead of confronting his problems he ran away from them and became secluded. It is not until Yoda appears to him that he realizes he needs to learn from his failures and secure the future of the next generation. That's why he projects onto Crait and stalls to allow the Resistance/Rebellion enough time to escape. So they can live to fight another day. I know many people were disappointed they didn't see Luke swoop in on an X-wing and confront Kylo in person, but honestly that goes against the whole point of the film. Luke isn't trying to be a hero anymore. He may be the strongest Force user in the galaxy, but even he can't take on the entire First Order on his own (as he tells Rey earlier in the film). He's no longer the kid from ESB who dashes off to Cloud City to confront Vader without a plan. He's grown to understand that saving the lives of those who can live to fight oppression another day is more important than his own pride. I thought Luke's arc was near perfect at the end of this film.

I mostly agree, but I have a bit to add.

 

First, I think that while Luke ultimately was trying to buy time for The Resistance, he also did something arguably more important.  Consider the final scene of the movie: the Jedi stable boy thing.

In my opinion, that scene was not only important because it implied a wider view of the Force, but because we see the kids telling the story of what happened on Crait.  The Resistance is in a super dark place right now and really have almost no assets- but the galaxy itself is still a really big place, and Luke may have just inspired hope in it to finally throw the First Order down.  These kids are telling the story, and you can bet many more people in the GFFA are also spreading the word of Luke's actions and Kylo's embarrassment on Crait.  Leia spoke of allies- maybe now they'll be inspired to take action.

 

Also, Luke technically didn't even attack Kylo on Crait.  What seemed like it would be an epic saber showdown actually was simply an illusion.  This may well be the most Jedi-like behavior that we've ever seen in a Star Wars movie.  Instead of resorting to violence and murder when confronting his enemy, Luke resorted to a very Zen-like trickery.  In doing so, I see this as almost a fixing of the rather hypocritical behavior of the Jedi during the Clone Wars- Jedi that would preach peace while also being heavily active in war.  

 

Return of the Jedi Luke was amazing, but The Last Jedi Luke truly encapsulates what it means to be a master- even if it's not as showy or flashy as some fanboys might have wanted.

Edited by subtrendy2

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18 hours ago, defkhan1 said:

The primary theme of this film is the danger of hubris and the failure that it brings. Most of the major characters have to deal with this theme and either overcome their own pride or are destroyed by it.

Totally agree. What enables the danger of hubris is the desperation. All the primary characters are DESPERATE to win (some at all costs) or DESPERATE to survive. And that desperation was compounded by the immediacy of the situation.

There wasn't really a chance for most of the characters to breathe -- like Luke and R2-D2 on Dagobah, Leia and Han in the Falcon while in the belly of the beast. The few moments where The Last Jedi characters aren't running to/from one objective or fight are basically most of Rey's time with Luke and The Rey/Kylo Party Talk Line -- and those scenes are the best in the movie. 

Honestly, I liked that The Last Jedi felt this desperate. It raised the stakes in a Star Wars film that has really never been done before. I liked this theme that hubris causes failure and the big difference between good and evil is how you learn from failure. But I can understand how some Star Wars fans want to go back to the more adventurous peril of A New Hope, Empire and The Force Awakens.

 

19 hours ago, defkhan1 said:

But here's the important thing: we're getting all of this in the second film of the series. TLJ feels very much like a mashup of ESB and RotJ, but it attempts to bring us beyond that. It's leading into an Episode IX that's going to feel nothing like we've seen before (at least I hope). As Kylo put it, they're trying to "kill the past." In a lot of ways this movie felt like the swansong of the OT. Luke overcomes his own legend and lets the Resistance live to fight another day in exchange for his life. Kylo kills Snoke, the evil mastermind behind the FO, before we ever get to the real climax of the series. Poe and the Resistance learn from their mistakes and taste defeat before going into their final battle against the FO in IX. My take on this film is that Rian Johnson is trying to evolve the series beyond the tropes of the OT. No more overconfident evil mastermind, no more lapdog Sith apprentice, no more needless heroism on the side of the Rebellion. Rian tried to resolve all these tropes in this film and have the characters learn from them to lead into a truly interesting setting for IX. We'll have a wiser Resistance, a more developed Rey, and a truly unique villain in Kylo once that film hits. I like to think that Luke's confrontation at the end was his final lesson to Kylo, and I really hope Kylo learns from it.

The question is whether JJ can pull it off. There's one criticism about the ST that I forgot to mention in my original post, and that's the lack of a visionary. JJ started us off with TFA but that film was sorely lacking in any sort of worldbuilding. On top of that, JJ left and Rian took over for TLJ. Now Rian is also leaving to make his own trilogy and we have JJ coming back for IX. Never thought I'd say it, but the ST really needed someone like George Lucas. The man may be a bad writer and terrible director, but he is an excellent worldbuilder and visionary. Without someone like him I fear the ST will end up feeling disjointed. I don't think JJ had the same themes in mind as Rian did when he made TFA. And if he doesn't we might end up with an Episode IX that undoes everything Rian tried to build up. That's my biggest fear. I hope it's unfounded.

My immediate thought after watching TLJ was that JJ is definitely going to have to raise his game for IX. If JJ tries to reverse some of the character developments that happened in VIII, I'll be disappointed.

This film convinced me that I want to see a Star Wars realm developed by Rian Johnson. 

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3 hours ago, The Cocky Rooster said:

I thought it was odd that the cruiser has to abandon ship because it's almost out of fuel but is able to go into hyperdrive.

They said they had enough fuel for one last hyperspace jump. I'm assuming hyperspace and sublight engines use different fuel.

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I believe my thoughts lineup with most people's (plot's horribly razor-thin but the characters are great), but can I additionally point how just how stupid and lazy some of the plot decisions are?

Once they're on Crait, instead of closing the blast door, which would be the smart thing, they....keep it open and let fire come in to the base. This only happens because the writers needed a way to have Finn and Rose rejoin the others. 

The cruisers are supposed to be faster than the star destroyers, but somehow they never get out of gun range. Theoretically you could argue in space a laser doesn't really have 'range', but still weird.

They have hyperspace capable ships on board the cruiser, and decide not to evacuate senior personnel from the ship and instead place them in perpetual danger.

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25 minutes ago, Nefarious Qwark said:

I believe my thoughts lineup with most people's (plot's horribly razor-thin but the characters are great), but can I additionally point how just how stupid and lazy some of the plot decisions are?

Once they're on Crait, instead of closing the blast door, which would be the smart thing, they....keep it open and let fire come in to the base. This only happens because the writers needed a way to have Finn and Rose rejoin the others. 

The cruisers are supposed to be faster than the star destroyers, but somehow they never get out of gun range. Theoretically you could argue in space a laser doesn't really have 'range', but still weird.

They have hyperspace capable ships on board the cruiser, and decide not to evacuate senior personnel from the ship and instead place them in perpetual danger.

You could take this approach to almost every single event that's happened in all of the movies and not a single one of them would hold up to that level of scrutiny.

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