Jump to content
Yaccarus

The Big Issue with Canon (Minor Spoilers)

Recommended Posts

The lack of payoffs in the new movie kind of made me lose interest in this trilogy. I feel like nothing has any meat, and it's all in whimsical flux. I read Aftermath and I found it to be kind of unsatisfying so I didn't buy any more books. This leaves me with the movies as they stand on their own. The Empire and the Rebellion made sense to me, this new thing doesn't. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 21.1.2018 at 2:44 AM, Rebelarch86 said:

If it didn't happen while the creator was heading it, it's not canon.

Just such a weird concept that canon would be something beyond what a creator of a piece agrees to.

So the bible, the canon of christian faith, established hundreds of years after the birth and death of christus is such a weird concept … while being actually as well one base of the canonical concept as well ^_^ 
Ok, let's spread the word, christianity is doomed, that weird concept is totally not working out at all.  ^_^

(Now I am not going to dwelf into any religious debate, using the OG of canon was merely used to illustrate the point, and yes I am aware that there are some uneducated baboons who consider the bible the actual word of the creator. So better not hurt some uneducated peoples feeling either and just don't start any off-topic talk about religion in this case)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're expecting a space fantasy movie franchise to "make sense" in comparison to the real world, you're going to be in for a long, long discussion. If subsequent films do not violate the storytelling rules that were set up in earlier films, the movies work.

On 1/20/2018 at 8:44 PM, Rebelarch86 said:

If it didn't happen while the creator was heading it, it's not canon.

Just such a weird concept that canon would be something beyond what a creator of a piece agrees to.

Nope and nope. Separating the discussion of who determines the meaning of art, the artist or the consumer, canon is enforced by whoever owns an idea, be it the Council of Nicea or the Lucasfilm Story Group.

Edited by Concise Locket

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

So the bible, the canon of christian faith, established hundreds of years after the birth and death of christus is such a weird concept … while being actually as well one base of the canonical concept as well ^_^ 
Ok, let's spread the word, christianity is doomed, that weird concept is totally not working out at all.  ^_^

The atheist in me wants to say so many things regarding this comment, but mixing religious flame war with star wars canon flame wars is bordering on creating internet WMD's, and I won't be party to that :P 

OT:  I personally feel that GM's making themselves beholden to canon at their tables is a bad call.  It limits the possibility of fun storytelling based on the decisions made by people who were creating a story in an entirely different medium, without any consideration for how this would impact the gaming community (and why should they?  they're busy making a movie).   

I've never understood the religious, dogmatic adherence to canon, when it comes to scifi fans.   Like it will somehow invalidate their fun if they don't obey the Star Wars Commandments or something.   I personally don't care what some person in some studio did, to make their movie, if it contradicts my idea for the game I'm running, I'm not following it.  I don't expect them to give a crap what I do in my home at my table, so why should I give a crap what they did too?

I quoted you jokingly SEA, but the similarities between actual religion, and the way scifi fans argue about canon/doctrine of their favorite franchise, are frighteningly similar.   Writing made by other people, not the original author, years later, supposedly (but debated by many) to have the authority of the original author to speak on his behalf, come up with incredibly different interpretations of the "rules and laws" of the various groups depicted in stories, passed on from generation to generation, with revisions, retcons, etc.   Yeah, it's incredibly similar, on so many levels.   The debates on the Jedi/Sith codes alone feels very much like a religious fundamentals debate.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fan is short for fanatic. So you should not be surprised that star wars fanatics act similar to religious fanatics. Shame upon everyone who is reminded of an act of compensation. Star Wars is called a mythos for america … ;-)

Besides: Yeah, following canon on your game table to a slavish degree is indeed inconvenient. As GM you are basically the pope of your little church of star wars. You are free to rewrite your personal canon as needed to satisfy your little cult of players. ^_^
 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Fan is short for fanatic. So you should not be surprised that star wars fanatics act similar to religious fanatics. Shame upon everyone who is reminded of an act of compensation. Star Wars is called a mythos for america … ;-)

Besides: Yeah, following canon on your game table to a slavish degree is indeed inconvenient. As GM you are basically the pope of your little church of star wars. You are free to rewrite your personal canon as needed to satisfy your little cult of players. ^_^

 

I'm not surprised at all that they are similar to religious fanatics :P  

The only time I think canon can be useful, is for those random questions that come up that aren't really reflected in the rules, but are ultimately kind of minor.   A great example of times when I think canon is handy, is in the case of another poster, who asked for ways to bring down a hostile droid in a way that they could talk to it afterwards.   We all tossed out ideas, ranging from restraining bolts, to ion weapons, to electricity traps, etc.   And even after posting my ideas for non-lethal traps, I pointed out that there really wasn't a need.  As we clearly see 3PO get blasted by a regular blaster shot, into pieces a might add.  And all Chewy had to do to get him talking again was fiddle with some wires and settings.   Meaning that regular attacks could easily work, as long as you didn't roll a crit that would damage the CPU/Memory of the droid in question.  

THAT kind of thing, I think is find to discuss regarding canon, but some of the things people adhere to, "because movies" just boggles my mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/18/2017 at 10:21 AM, LordBritish said:

And the emperor was the doosh of the highest order, since Jakku basically contained a super weapon of some description that he planned to use to destroy both the rebel and imperial fleets. If he couldn't have his empire, he was going to burn the earth so that countless generations would pay for it.

God I hate that this is cannon.

The Aftermath books were just terrible.

Edit: Loved Bloodlines though.

Edited by Silidus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Silidus said:

God I hate that this is cannon.
 

Why do you hate that fact about Palpatine?  

I'm just curious, because I don't see how it's out of character for him to decide to go a scorched earth policy if he ever lost power.   I mean, this guy had a track record of making huge WMD's on a planetary scale, so having another one in secret, to blow up everyone in some final middle finger to the galaxy....yeah I can totally see Palps doing something like that.   He'd probably code it to have a hologram recording of him be broadcast right before everything went boom, with his sneering, smug face, peering out form his hood, giving everyone the middle finger, and cackling like...well like Emperor Palpatine, as the whole galaxy burned.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

He'd probably code it to have a hologram recording of him be broadcast right before everything went boom, with his sneering, smug face, peering out form his hood, giving everyone the middle finger, and cackling like...well like Emperor Palpatine, as the whole galaxy burned.

1

Nah.  It'd be something ominous yet misleading.  Maybe "Issue Order 69."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Why do you hate that fact about Palpatine?  

I'm just curious, because I don't see how it's out of character for him to decide to go a scorched earth policy if he ever lost power.   I mean, this guy had a track record of making huge WMD's on a planetary scale, so having another one in secret, to blow up everyone in some final middle finger to the galaxy....yeah I can totally see Palps doing something like that.   He'd probably code it to have a hologram recording of him be broadcast right before everything went boom, with his sneering, smug face, peering out form his hood, giving everyone the middle finger, and cackling like...well like Emperor Palpatine, as the whole galaxy burned.

 

Well to me it's the entire character and what it represents.

For the most part (based on previous EU stuff, and the Sith religion as described in KoTOR), I always pictured Palpatine as a Sith, seeking power and influence as part of a dogmatic way to ensure the strong survive and only a stronger will would be able to usurp him.  Through various lines in EI-III we get the impression that he despised the chaos of the Republic, despised that the bureaucracy created indecision and weakness.

If we take these statements (and Sith lore) as insights into his character, then what we get is someone who believes in the right for the strong to lead, that listening to the cries of the weak only serves to weaken the strong. We see someone who believes in the right of succession, that those in power should seek more power to prolong their rule, but have a responsibly to train the strongest successor possible.  And by train I mean grind the subject into the dirt until they emerge stronger than your training, or break and are replaced.


This type of ideology is present throughout the empire, from the way the military is structured, the emphasis on order, and through the general style of the empire (clean lines, black and grey interiors, etc), the emphasis on overwhelming military force without regard for the soldiers themselves.

All of this is a foil for the Jedi themselves, and (at least to me) gives a strong sense of a motivated character with a higher goal to create a better, stronger, world order under the rule of the Sith dogma.

But then in the new Cannon, we kinda see the opposite.  We see him creating Vader with a force limiting suit to control his power (ie, I found the strongest apprentice I could, killed off 2 others to get him, then made him weaker for ... reasons), we see him choose Maul as an apprentice, specifically because he is weak in the force (ie completely abandoning the Sith doctrine), and then finally we see him establish the Jakku Contingency... basically just a big F U to the galaxy to say none of it had any reason other than the whims of a madman.

But why? why establish an empire? why continue to run the empire and institute sweeping dogmatic reform within the space of 20 years if the only thing he actually cared about was the position itself?  Why train Anakin if his goal was to limit his power? or Why train an apprentice at all (especially after the Jedi were destroyed) and specifically test him against opponents to ensure only the most worthy could succeed him, if there was no intention of ever allowing anyone to succeed him?

It really doesn't make sense in my mind.
 

Edited by Silidus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Silidus said:

Well to me it's the entire character and what it represents.

For the most part (based on previous EU stuff, and the Sith religion as described in KoTOR), I always pictured Palpatine as a Sith, seeking power and influence as part of a dogmatic way to ensure the strong survive and only a stronger will would be able to usurp him.  Through various lines in EI-III we get the impression that he despised the chaos of the Republic, despised that the bureaucracy created indecision and weakness.

The problem is that the chaos of the Republic, at least what we are shown, is mostly his making.   He pushed the Separatists to split from the Republic, and helped fund their army to attack the Republic, and then he funded the secret clone army to meet them in kind.  Considering the Republic had stood for thousands of years, the idea that it was chaotic, beyond your typical political type situation, seems a bit far fetched.  Open warfare across hundreds of planets, spanning a galaxy, is far more chaotic than bickering politicians.    

27 minutes ago, Silidus said:

If we take these statements (and Sith lore) as insights into his character, then what we get is someone who believes in the right for the strong to lead, that listening to the cries of the weak only serves to weaken the strong. We see someone who believes in the right of succession, that those in power should seek more power to prolong their rule, but have a responsibly to train the strongest successor possible.  And by train I mean grind the subject into the dirt until they emerge stronger than your training, or break and are replaced.

Except every time we see him behaving like himself, when he's no longer hiding who he is under the Chancellor persona, we see a cackling madman, howling about 'UUUUNNNNLIMITTEEEED POOOOOOOOWAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!"   And basically being an off the rails coo-coo pants.  To me, THAT is the true Palpatine.  Not the politician who was scheming and manipulating.  That was his cover story.  The true guy, the one we see when he's no longer worried about being discovered, who is firmly rooted in his seat of power, revels in his use of power, for power's sake.  Delights in the pain of others, including his own servants, and basically doesn't give two F's about anything.    

So I still think it's entirely in his personality that he would do this.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Silidus said:

Well to me it's the entire character and what it represents.

For the most part (based on previous EU stuff, and the Sith religion as described in KoTOR), I always pictured Palpatine as a Sith, seeking power and influence as part of a dogmatic way to ensure the strong survive and only a stronger will would be able to usurp him.  Through various lines in EI-III we get the impression that he despised the chaos of the Republic, despised that the bureaucracy created indecision and weakness.

If we take these statements (and Sith lore) as insights into his character, then what we get is someone who believes in the right for the strong to lead, that listening to the cries of the weak only serves to weaken the strong. We see someone who believes in the right of succession, that those in power should seek more power to prolong their rule, but have a responsibly to train the strongest successor possible.  And by train I mean grind the subject into the dirt until they emerge stronger than your training, or break and are replaced.


This type of ideology is present throughout the empire, from the way the military is structured, the emphasis on order, political infighting, and through the general style of the empire (clean lines, black and grey interiors, etc), the emphasis on overwhelming military force without regard for the soldiers themselves.

All of this is a foil for the Jedi themselves, and (at least to me) gives a strong sense of a motivated character with a higher goal to create a better, stronger, world order under the rule of the Sith dogma.

But then in the new Cannon, we kinda see the opposite.  We see him creating Vader with a force limiting suit to control his power (ie, I found the strongest apprentice I could, killed off 2 others to get him, then made him weaker for ... reasons), we see him choose Maul as an apprentice, specifically because he is weak in the force (ie completely abandoning the Sith doctrine), and then finally we see him establish the Jakku Contingency... basically just a big F U to the galaxy to say none of it had any reason other than the whims of a madman.

But why? why establish an empire? why continue to run the empire and institute sweeping dogmatic reform within the space of 20 years if the only thing he actually cared about was the position itself?  Why train Anakin if his goal was to limit his power? or Why train an apprentice at all (especially after the Jedi were destroyed) and specifically test him against opponents to ensure only the most worthy could succeed him, if there was no intention of ever allowing anyone to succeed him?

It really doesn't make sense in my mind.
 

A lot of what you said is true of the old canon. In fact, in the new canon, Palpatine even let Vader modify his suit himself to improve it rather than have Palpatine's engineers deliberately limit it. And from what we've seen of Maul, Ol' Sheevy intended to use him as his Apprentice throughout The Plan (R) till Obi-Wan tossed him down a shaft and left him for dead. Meanwhile, what is heavily implied to be Plaugis' last pet project shows up on a silver platter, and the Jedi start to splinter as a result of their hubris, with one of their best Masters leaving the Order in protest. Sheev is basically making this up as he goes at this point, and reworked The Plan (R) on a dime, using Tyranus as a fall guy and burning the galaxy in order to corrupt the Republic, bleed the Jedi, and sharpen Annie.

But The Sith doctrine is inherently selfish, getting power for power's sake. The purpose of the Empire was so that the strong would rule. . . but Sheev was incapable of conceiving that anyone could be stronger than him (admittedly with good reason.) This is the downfall of the Sith and authoritarianism in general. The leader believes in rule of the strong, so long as they are the strong, of course.

The closest possible justification for his actions is that by failing to protect him, the Empire proved its weakness, and thus deserved to die to the strong (i.e. Mon, Luke, Leia and Co.)

But I prefer the interpretation that there is no justification. The Empire died to the decision of a selfish sociopathic madman because at his core that's who Sidious is. The only higher purpose of Palpatine's efforts was Palpatine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

The problem is that the chaos of the Republic, at least what we are shown, is mostly his making.   He pushed the Separatists to split from the Republic, and helped fund their army to attack the Republic, and then he funded the secret clone army to meet them in kind.  Considering the Republic had stood for thousands of years, the idea that it was chaotic, beyond your typical political type situation, seems a bit far fetched.  Open warfare across hundreds of planets, spanning a galaxy, is far more chaotic than bickering politicians.   

Yes he definitely pushed the buttons.. but there is evidence that the senate was already failing long before that.  Even in episode I there is talk of debates in the senate taking too long, and Jedi being sent to arbitrate conflicts that should have been fairly one sided moral issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Silidus said:

Yes he definitely pushed the buttons.. but there is evidence that the senate was already failing long before that.  Even in episode I there is talk of debates in the senate taking too long, and Jedi being sent to arbitrate conflicts that should have been fairly one sided moral issues.

And how much of that was already the manipulations of Palpatine?  We learn that the clone army, put into place a decade before the events of Phantom Menace, were his doings.  So it's highly unlikely that he didn't already have a long reaching hand in the events to destabilize the Republic, long before we see the first scene of the film.   Especially when you consider one of the sides being represented in that long debate, that should've been fairly one sided, was directly under the control of Palpatine himself.   I think it's very likely, especially when we see him "suggesting" to various politicians, including Padme and Jar Jar, to suggest policies that directly helped his agenda, that he'd already been putting policies into place before that, to help deadlock things, so that he could sew the discontent he wanted, etc etc.   

I mean, we can debate this all we like, but I think it's veering a bit from the "Guy who already enjoyed blowing up entire planets as a show of power, and for the lulz, would likely have another Big Death Machine lying around" discussion we started with :P  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

And how much of that was already the manipulations of Palpatine?

...and his predecessors?  Darth Plagueis, at least as portrayed in the Luceno novel, was head of a banking clan, in a position to advocate for all the policies that corrupt democracies, such as money in politics.  Apparently the novel isn't canon (thank goodness, it was terrible) but the basic idea that the Sith were in the shadows for 1000 years, slowly building up the mundane levers of power to corrupt the Republic, still holds.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, whafrog said:

...and his predecessors?  Darth Plagueis, at least as portrayed in the Luceno novel, was head of a banking clan, in a position to advocate for all the policies that corrupt democracies, such as money in politics.  Apparently the novel isn't canon (thank goodness, it was terrible) but the basic idea that the Sith were in the shadows for 1000 years, slowly building up the mundane levers of power to corrupt the Republic, still holds.

 

But thats the whole issue isn't it.  We have this thousand year plan of subversion and corruption, instituted by (presumably) generations of Sith, each selecting the strongest possible successor to ensure the continuation of the Siths revenge, all very cold and calculated.

And then we have Palpatine, apparently 'acting' cool and calculated, finally pulling it all off, and then revealing himself to be... what... a maniacal sociopath with absolutely no control or respect for the order to which he is the audiences only real example of?

His lines (other than 'UNLIMITED POWER' which was cringy) are usually geared towards the power of the Sith, not him personally.
"Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy"

But in the end it turns out he was not a Sith, and despite the outward claim (why? what does he gain by claiming to be Sith? If anything the claim of being Sith is a hindrance to his plans, not a benefit).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t his scorched earth contingency plan specifically for the circumstances of if he were deposed/killed? That would make it less a matter of tearing things down rather than passing them on to a successor as it would be a matter of not knowing who to trust and tearing it all down as punishment for the betrayal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most Sith didn't want Bane's doctrine though. They rather disliked the implication that they were going to be killed by their apprentice and tried various methods to prevent it. Plaguies for instance tried to make Palpy an equal partner. Didn't work.

 

And if you're trying to build a strong military force and a strong state, then the methods he used were terrible. Like the absolutely worst. The only thing you're going to get with the Empires system are bullies and sycopanths. The lack of a clear hierarchy or loyalty to eachother is also making sure that the entire thing will fail without him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Darth Revenant said:

The only thing you're going to get with the Empires system are bullies and sycopanths.

I kinda see that as the point of the whole system.
Similar to the Sith training as a whole... reward brutality, reward bullying, and elevate those that overthrow or betray their superiors.  Its like the training of Darth Maul, applied on a galactic scale.

Again, it feels wrong that Palpatine could be a dogmatic Sith, except that he wasn't written that way, but many of his actions lean that way.  Instead, despite that he is the only example the audience (movies) has of 'a Sith', he is not a very good Sith, and seems instead to be a sort of cartoon level villain.

"I do this in the name of EVIL"
"why?"
"What do you mean why, do you not even see my  black cloak and everything?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Silidus said:

But thats the whole issue isn't it.  We have this thousand year plan of subversion and corruption, instituted by (presumably) generations of Sith, each selecting the strongest possible successor to ensure the continuation of the Siths revenge, all very cold and calculated.

And then we have Palpatine, apparently 'acting' cool and calculated, finally pulling it all off, and then revealing himself to be... what... a maniacal sociopath with absolutely no control or respect for the order to which he is the audiences only real example of?

His lines (other than 'UNLIMITED POWER' which was cringy) are usually geared towards the power of the Sith, not him personally.
"Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy"

But in the end it turns out he was not a Sith, and despite the outward claim (why? what does he gain by claiming to be Sith? If anything the claim of being Sith is a hindrance to his plans, not a benefit).

Well if he's not a Sith, then he's hardly upholding their plans, and is just a Sith fanboy.     

But in the end, I think we just have different views on Palpatine.  I'm working from the OT, which showed him to very much be a maniacal sociopath, and that all the stuff published afterwards, trying to then be applied to him, is a bad way to try and view the franchise.      You are working from a ton of EU material, written by other people, years after Palpatine had already been conceived and presented.   I frankly don't care to get into a "which one of us is right/wrong".   You want him to be one way, I see him the other, and neither of us are going to change that fact, which again, is still secondary to the fact that he is the kind of guy who would build giant weapons that could blow up billions of people, so the idea of him having another WMD hidden on Jakku still doesn't feel out of character, regardless of which flavor of him you ascribe to.

But that's my last thoughts on the matter, as I don't really care if there is a weapon on Jakku, as that is apparently unimportant to the movie storyline, seeing as they never bothered to mention it at all.    

But, Star Wars has a BIG problem with forcing every planet that shows up in the films, to be a Really Important Serious Planet In The Galactic Tapestry!

SWTOR did this with Hoth and Tatooine, because of course people have to go visit those planets.  They can't be inhospitable dirt balls/snow balls in the middle of nowhere, no, they have to have ancient force temples buried in them, or whatever other powerful thing.   Which always annoys me, and it seems Jakku is no different. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Silidus said:

His lines (other than 'UNLIMITED POWER' which was cringy)

Lost me there...actually far earlier.  I can't really agree with any of your positions, because your premises are flawed or misleading.  But, no point in arguing about taste...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

 But, Star Wars has a BIG problem with forcing every planet that shows up in the films, to be a Really Important Serious Planet In The Galactic Tapestry!

SWTOR did this with Hoth and Tatooine, because of course people have to go visit those planets.  They can't be inhospitable dirt balls/snow balls in the middle of nowhere, no, they have to have ancient force temples buried in them, or whatever other powerful thing.   Which always annoys me, and it seems Jakku is no different. 

To be fair, even with its introduction, shown strewn with the debris of an apparently pretty significant battle, Jakku was a Really Important Serious Planet In The Galactic Tapestry from the get-go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

To be fair, even with its introduction, shown strewn with the debris of an apparently pretty significant battle, Jakku was a Really Important Serious Planet In The Galactic Tapestry from the get-go.

Really, because the impression I got was that it was simply a location where there was a battle.  Plenty of battles happen on incredibly inconsequential locations IRL, I see no reason that the two fleets didn't just happen to meet in that system, and fight over Jakku, because it just happened to be the dirtball they were orbiting.     I mean, the only reason they fought on Hoth was because the Rebels were there, no other aspect of the planet factored into the Imperial plans to attack.    Nor was there anything special about the salt planet in Last Jedi.  It was just a planet that had a Resistance base on it, and it happened to be where they ran to, so the First Order showed up there.    It had no other significance that we were made aware of.  

But that's my point, those places don't have to be important.  Battlefields are all over, and not every location where people killed each other is a "Super Important Location"  sometimes it's just the spot where both sides went "ok, let's get to killin!"   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A perfectly reasonable perspective. From my seat in the theater, since we had never been shown that sort of remains of a battle, my conclusion was that whatever happened there was significant in the big picture of the GCW. So, LFL has come in behind and tossed in a reason that all the threads came together on Jakku.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Nytwyng said:

A perfectly reasonable perspective. From my seat in the theater, since we had never been shown that sort of remains of a battle, my conclusion was that whatever happened there was significant in the big picture of the GCW. So, LFL has come in behind and tossed in a reason that all the threads came together on Jakku.

Which is fine, I guess it's just my experience dealing with veterans at the VA that makes me not see every piece of land someone fights on, as being vital.   Sometimes it really is just "this is where they met up to punch faces"  :D   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×