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Yaccarus

The Big Issue with Canon (Minor Spoilers)

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Before I get to the meat of this topic, I do want to clarify a few things.

  • I’m not saying that Canon is horrible. It has its fair share of strengths.
  • I’m not saying that Legends was perfect. With 30ish years of stuff, some of it is bound to be bad.
  • I’m not saying that Disney shouldn’t have moved on from the EU.

Especially based on what we see in the Last Jedi:

The premise of Disney’s new trilogy makes no kriffing sense.

 

The First Order:

Are Imperial supporters bound to exist? Of course. But let’s talk about the First Order. They have a HUGE military. Enough to, apparently, conquer the galaxy with ease. Okay, so they recruit impoverished choldren and indoctrinate them at an early age. How exactly can you build an entire military that way in secret? It would likely take at least a couple million stormtroopers to capture the average planet. There are thousands of planets. Let’s say 10,000. How exactly can you capture 20 billion children in secret? How exactly can you feed 20 billion people in secret, especially when most of your money is devoted to military endeavors? Are they extorting mass amounts of funds from planets? How exactly do they do that in secret? And then there are the weapons and vehicles. Okay, so they got some assets from the Empire. But Imperial assets don’t make up everything. There hundreds, if not thousands, of people who are suddenly vastly wealthy off of selling weapons to the First Order. Where does all this money come from? And how exactly do that many transactions occur in secret? And what exactly do they plan to do once they conquer the galaxy? After the Empire messed everything up so badly, being so evil, no one is going to let the First Order rule them. They’re going to have to kill half the galaxy in order to eliminate those who don’t like them.

 

The New Republic:

So then there is the New Republic. It seems to be a weaker government. Believable, considering how badly the strong government did. It seems to be demilitarized. Believable, considering how badly the government with a huge military did. The New Republic has nothing for a military, apparently. What about pirates? What about crime lords? What about civil wars? It’s a big galaxy, complete peace is impossible. Even if they have an extremely small military (maybe 500 million people) they’re not going down without a fight. They may have lost leadership, but are you telling me that planets are just going to stick their heads in the sand now? There is going to be a fighting force of notable size.

 

The Resistance:

Obviously, someone is going to be wanting to defend themselves. So, here we have the Resistance. Like what, a couple thousand people? That is less than one per planet! And they are the only ones who can inspire people to fight off the big bad evil invaders? Distress call or no distress call, with the First Order having destroyed some planets, people are going to be charging into action. Even before the First Order did something, there are going to be much more people who want to join. A solid 90% of the galaxy would not want the First Order to rule. How is no one wanting to take a stand?

 

 

So basically, a massive army has come out of nowhere, and is about to easily take over the galaxy. Our galactic government, on the other hand, with trillions of people, has 0 military. And then there is a small group realizing that defense is needed, and consists of a thousand people or so.

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The First Order got its start in ex-Imperials shaving off (large) chunks of Imperial resources and sending them to hide in the Unknown Regions. There, they grew. How? It's the Unknown Regions, no one knows what's there, so who knows. So they grew in the dark, and got stronger. Then they crept back into known space, using allies, sympathizers, and supporters in and out of the Republic (though I guess they never really left completely; just the military might). 

In Star Wars, it doesn't take millions of people to take a planet. How? No idea. It simply doesn't. (If you look carefully at the logistics of galactic government, it all falls apart. To not fall apart, you have to have systems that wouldn't support the stories being told.)

The New Republic had a small military - the best parts of which ended up in the Resistance, as the Republic denied the existence and threat of the First Order, while Leia Organa and her allies didn't. The Republic also, AFAIK, let members build their forces to handle criminal matters, like pirates. I imagine the First Order also took over some pirate groups, and destroyed others (thereby insinuating themselves in the good graces of some systems). The Resistance was maybe a bit larger, but some of them were in the Hosnian Prime system, and a bunch of them died attacking Starkiller Base, guarding the evacuation of their base, and so forth. Now there are about 15 or 20 members of the Resistance (eep).

Who said the First Order destroyed planets? Why, that's just slander! Libel! Fake news! Blaming the noble First Order for some terrible tragedy (one no doubt brought on by the Republic's own failed policies) - why are you politicizing this? Why, in this time of tragedy and emergency, we all need to band together to support the First Order in defending peace and order throughout the galaxy! To do otherwise is to support the criminals and scum that want to destabilize our lives and take our precious bodily fluids! You aren't with them, are you? Also, we have always been at war with Mon Cal. 

Also, never underestimate the ability of people to deceive themselves. 

Interesting point: as of the Force Awakens, the "new" Republic has existed longer than the Empire did.

Edited by coyote6

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I have an answer which is quite simple, the source is 11-facts-about-human-trafficking. 

Quote

#10 Human trafficking is the third largest international crime industry (behind illegal drugs and arms trafficking). It reportedly generates a profit of $32 billion every year. Of that number, $15.5 billion is made in industrialized countries.

The galaxy is a large place. Pillage und plundering in the outer rim is something the core worlds care little about. And as a matter of fact, the battle between the resistance and the first order is after two movies still completely irrelevant for those core worlders and rich people who profit from the conflict in the galaxy since thousands of years. 

The republic was corrupt, just as corrupt the empire or the new republic. Selling weapons to the first order and ignoring their atrocities is something very lucrative for the core worlds. 

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9 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

And as a matter of fact, the battle between the resistance and the first order is after two movies still completely irrelevant for those core worlders and rich people who profit from the conflict in the galaxy since thousands of years. 

I don't know about irrelevant. I got a bit of a vibe that Canto Bight was all about dancing on the Titanic while it's sinking. Once the First Order had solidified its position, it would just nationalize any corporation it wanted. Just like the Empire.

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On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 10:10 AM, Yaccarus said:

So then there is the New Republic. It seems to be a weaker government. Believable, considering how badly the strong government did. It seems to be demilitarized. Believable, considering how badly the government with a huge military did. The New Republic has nothing for a military, apparently. What about pirates? What about crime lords? What about civil wars?

With historical examples, I believe the weaker central government implies that local governments are going to be dealing with local crime and defense. Since the fall of the Empire and the rise of the New Republic, advanced worlds have probably formed local defense forces to repel outside aggression and pirates since there isn't a powerful New Republic fleet to do so. The New Republic probably had a fleet at its capital world(s) ready to respond when needed, even if much, much smaller then what the Empire or Grand Army of the Republic had. This fleet would have been destroyed by the Starkiller volley.

This could also explain the lack of response to help the Resistance in TLJ. There is the obvious fear of reprisal from the New Order combined with planets that for decades have been defending themselves without outside assistance. Isolationism can be a result of a weak central government.

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The Emperor had a contingency plan, for the eventuality, that his empire would fail. This includes hidden resources in the unknown region. As for the question how to secretly go about the upkeep of billions of people... That does not need more than one efficiently (and ruthlessly) industrialized planet, especially since the tech is there to use the resources of the whole system. So one well picked and well managed system in the unknown regions would already provide you with a somewhat secret base with possibly vast resources (and be it for a limited time).

That being said, 7 and 8 still have quite a few weak spots, but at least some of the holes are filled by the, often not all too good, yet informative, new canon books.

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1 hour ago, [Arkas] said:

The Emperor had a contingency plan, for the eventuality, that his empire would fail. This includes hidden resources in the unknown region.

The exact opposite actually. He designed the Empire to implode upon his death.

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The one thing that is specified in Bloodline is that someone within the New Order was influencing senators. Apparently the empire still had a lot of supporters and thus one of the theories that any senator that was firmly in the new orders back pocket was notified not to be on planet and likely, as soon as starkiller base fired, those planets in alignment with the empire would switch their alliances to openly support the new order, while others were completely without leadership and unable to coordinate an effective response; or otherwise was terrified witless at a weapon that destroyed several key systems in the republic space with a single attack. Star Killer base had broken the republics back with the very first attack.

So three facts.

1) The New Order had some very powerful allies, among the remients of the supporters. While they wouldn't have been informed of the plans; they likely had an idea where to put their resources. Furthermore there were a lot of people that just didn't care and sold weapons to whoever would buy them.


2) They blew up the republic home world; destroying both fleet and the basic infrastructure in a single strike. E.g. the republic as a formal institution was completely wiped out, leaving elements in the dark.

3) Likely Episode 7 and 8 occurred within less then a week. The moment starkiller base fired only a relatively short time seems to have passed, the base fired, the resistance took out starkiller base and the first order struck back swiftly, forcing them to jump to an emergency zone, and the resulting battle that followed only seemed to last between 18-28 hours. As such the galaxy likely hadn't had time to recover from the single most devastating attack in history; even Genosis, the attack on Coursant and the Destruction of Alderiann didn't have the galactic ramifications that having several key republican planets blown up at once, without any kind of warning unlike the empire that had spent 20 years gearing up to the death star. As such; the galaxy was simply paralysis with terror.


And the emperor was the doosh of the highest order, since Jakku basically contained a super weapon of some description that he planned to use to destroy both the rebel and imperial fleets. If he couldn't have his empire, he was going to burn the earth so that countless generations would pay for it.

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14 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

I have an answer which is quite simple, the source is 11-facts-about-human-trafficking. 

The galaxy is a large place. Pillage und plundering in the outer rim is something the core worlds care little about. And as a matter of fact, the battle between the resistance and the first order is after two movies still completely irrelevant for those core worlders and rich people who profit from the conflict in the galaxy since thousands of years. 

The republic was corrupt, just as corrupt the empire or the new republic. Selling weapons to the first order and ignoring their atrocities is something very lucrative for the core worlds. 

I think this is probably one of the solid takeaways from the New Canon that TLJ highlights. The New Republic had no appetite to actually challenge injustice- they just wanted the Imperial occupation of their planets over as soon as possible, and to return to the way things used to be. They never really addressed why the Republic fell, so it was inevitable it'd happen again.

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It seems to me that a lot of the trouble you have with the current canon would be laid to rest if you read the numerous books that have been published since Disney took over.

Especially the Aftermath books that describe what happened after the original trilogy.

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I tried reading one of the books--can't recall which right now--and it was absolutely unreadable. I got 10 pages in and have never opened it again. 

 

The movies simply don't stand on their own: we're missing critical information to understand what is happening in the galaxy and why. So little of TFA and TLJ make sense. 

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59 minutes ago, OddballE8 said:

It seems to me that a lot of the trouble you have with the current canon would be laid to rest if you read the numerous books that have been published since Disney took over.

Especially the Aftermath books that describe what happened after the original trilogy.

I've enjoyed some of the new canon books, but I couldn't get through Aftermath. It's just a bad book. Bloodlines was okay, and does a decent job explaining the political atmosphere of the New Republic and Leia's place in it.

But, as a film franchise primarily, you shouldn't have to read any of the books to get a picture of the overall world building for Star Wars.

Edited by ghatt

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15 minutes ago, yeti1069 said:

The movies simply don't stand on their own: we're missing critical information to understand what is happening in the galaxy and why. So little of TFA and TLJ make sense. 

How does this square with the couple hundred million or so people who've watched these movies and not been left adrift?

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2 hours ago, ghatt said:

But, as a film franchise primarily, you shouldn't have to read any of the books to get a picture of the overall world building for Star Wars.

That's your misconception. As a film franchise primary, you don't have to get ANY overall world build, you just have to get the story and theme of each of the movies. Questions like who is Snoke or how is the state of the overall war is of little importance for understanding the movie. You just WANT that information, because you like the setting. Sorry, if that's what you want, you have to get into the expanded universe. :P

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48 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

That's your misconception. As a film franchise primary, you don't have to get ANY overall world build, you just have to get the story and theme of each of the movies. Questions like who is Snoke or how is the state of the overall war is of little importance for understanding the movie. You just WANT that information, because you like the setting. Sorry, if that's what you want, you have to get into the expanded universe. :P

George Lucas managed just fine without needing tie in material...

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6 minutes ago, ghatt said:

George Lucas managed just fine without needing tie in material...

So this does movie. I mean do you honestly think the majority of viewers is leaving the theater and saying to themselves "the movie didn't tell me enough about the sociopolitical state of the galaxy to really appreciate its characters and story"?

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2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

So this does movie. I mean do you honestly think the majority of viewers is leaving the theater and saying to themselves "the movie didn't tell me enough about the sociopolitical state of the galaxy to really appreciate its characters and story"?

Some certainly did. 

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21 minutes ago, ghatt said:

George Lucas managed just fine without needing tie in material...

This made me laugh. Considering how the EU and Heirs of the Empire was praised for saving the dead star wars franchise and how little we would have known about the background and the galaxy without the EU (now legends), I am so close to assume just sarcasm.

Edited by SEApocalypse

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4 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

This made me laugh. Considering how the EU and Heirs of the Empire was praised for saving the dead star wars franchise and how we would have known about the background and the galaxy without the EU (now legends), I am so close to assume just sarcasm.

I'm a huge fan of both, but saving Star Wars? What? Star Wars is one of the most universally loved movie franchises of all time. The EU authors, Timothy Zahn in particular, added great material, that enriched the Star Wars universe, but I'd hardly say it saved it. 

Most Star Wars fans have probably never even picked up a Star Wars novel, let alone relied on the EU to save it.

Edited by ghatt

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Just now, ghatt said:

Surely, you've seen the fan reviews of this movie, yes?

99.9999999999%? Hardly.

I think with how many people have watched this movie all across the world and NOT posted online about the sociopolitical storytelling issues with TLJ, I'm thinking my number is closer to reality than yours.

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Just now, Stan Fresh said:

I think with how many people have watched this movie all across the world and NOT posted online about the sociopolitical storytelling issues with TLJ, I'm thinking my number is closer to reality than yours.

Good god, man. I'm done with this nonsense. I'm truly glad the movie satisfied your fanhood. 

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11 hours ago, Yaccarus said:

The exact opposite actually. He designed the Empire to implode upon his death.

In fact it is not the exact opposite. Both is true, he had resourced sent towards the unknown regions and left the rest to burn (in rather pointless showdowns for example).

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