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Sexism.....Sexism never changes...... 

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15 minutes ago, Julia said:

Equal representation of sexes in a game? Yes, and this has nothing to do with what a group might or might not like.

As a dad who's always trying to "nerd-up" my daughter, I'm always happy to see more female characters in a game.  In the case of Fallout, people who dive deep into the source material will know that 2 of the 5 characters (the power armor and the super mutant) are gender-neutral, but the look of the super mutant doesn't help.  Furthermore, the nerd genres where female armor is represented in a realistic way are very small... in my universe, only Fallout and Captain Phasma come to mind.

Unfortunately, even though my own daughter is very much in favor of not accentuating her own femininity needlessly (hooray!), I think even she would see such dull-looking armor in a game and assume that the person inside is male.  Maybe we'll soon get to a tipping point where that changes, thanks to the likes of Gwendoline Christie :)

Anyway, if I use the too-many-choices FFG Talisman character roster as an example, I imagine that expansion content will feature a much better gender-mix than this base game.  We'll get some good stuff - I have hope!

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14 hours ago, Almeric said:

As a dad who's always trying to "nerd-up" my daughter,

I for one welcome any women into the hobby. They are, from my own experience, sadly lacking which is a shame but I just assumed its because they weren't that bothered about playing with games and little plastic toy soldiers. Often when I see women, such as at a games day, they're really just there to treat their man, not because they themselves are interested. At that same games day, I almost jumped out of my skin to find that rarest of gems: the female tabletop miniature gamer.

She was the only member of staff there I actually had an intelligent conversation with. Everyone else, or should that be all the males, simply went about their business and acknowledged my presence with a sort of grunt. But she had this big beaming smile and went into enthusiastic conversation about all the miniatures she was standing beside.

Edited by GeekStar Tommy

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While I do understand that visual representation is especially important in order for a game to appeal to female players equally, I think the "its 1 in 5" comment is not fully embracing the Fallout background. Moreover, as sexism was mentioned, how would one intent to alter the background in order to present characters that everybody would more easily identify as female without becoming even more sexist? 

Example BOS outcast: 

Its a power armor, they look as they look (more or less) since F1 and there has never been a version that somehow exhibits parts or would alocate dedicated room for secondary private parts. Easiest way to alter it, drop the helmet and have a clear female/male head. Ops, you triggered a sexism trap, as what head "design" exactly is clearly male/female? Other way to alter it, have some more female version of the power armour with a more elaborated chest part. Ops, you triggered both the sexist and the lore trap and are now equally vilified by SJWs and hardcore nerds. Great job. 

 

Supermutant: 

Unsure if still human. Lore says they lose secondary sexual parts and are sterile. Not sure how a female superhuman should be distinguished from a male one without coming up with a complete mockery of it (dresses) and equally triggering the sexism trap. 

Goul: 

Similar problems as with the Supermutant, loss of body parts, hair etc. makes it difficult to visually distinguish male from female without going full comedy. 

 

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On 30/01/2018 at 6:32 AM, player2017979 said:

Ha ha... Oh no, how about us poor men and our under representation in board games and the board gaming community! How will we ever be encouraged to get to the table!!!  ; P

Maybe more men would be encouraged to play if there were more female characters in the game. :-)

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4 hours ago, Hesekiel said:

Example BOS outcast: 

Its a power armor, they look as they look (more or less) since F1 and there has never been a version that somehow exhibits parts or would alocate dedicated room for secondary private parts. Easiest way to alter it, drop the helmet and have a clear female/male head.

We could just paint the armour pink???

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On 30/01/2018 at 12:49 AM, Julia said:

Equal representation of sexes in a game? Yes, and this has nothing to do with what a group might or might not like.

Yes let not worry whether games are actually good or not, whether they play well or are thematic ... as long as there are equal number of male and female playing pieces!

And my first report back as following, the women in our group are not bothered about a figure being male or female. Have taken it to work, and ok these are now game players rather than gamers, so best I could do is use the likes of video as an example for gender characters... but I am yet to find 1 woman or girl that is bothered about gender when playing a game, most jumped straight to monopoly and said they would be more bothered about not getting their favourite piece in that hahaha

Maybe UK women think different? ... where was the original post from?

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1 hour ago, Slash Macbain said:

Yes let not worry whether games are actually good or not, whether they play well or are thematic ... as long as there are equal number of male and female playing pieces!

Haha... Wow... I find it hilarious the lengths people go to in order to argue against this idea. All that is being said is that it would've been better if the designers made some (pretty minor) changes to design and included more than one obviously female looking character (the Vault Dweller or the Ghoul are the obvious choices here or even add a sixth character??), that's it!! 

It's not going to mess with the theme just because a Ghoul is obviously female (which if you've played Fallout 4 etc can be obvious without looking stupid) or the Vault Dweller is a girl or even if the Brotherhood character didn't have a helmet and looked feminine (that would've looked cool). I find it weird that anyone would have a problem with the idea of having more equality in a game.

By adding more characters that are obviously female the game would still be thematically awesome, play just as well (with the same flaws) and it's appeal to a wider audience would only increase (unless male gamers have a problem with having to be a girl ; P).

All this aside, women are around 50% of the population and that should be reflected in the games we play...

 

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I think this whole thing is stupid. It is all based around assumptions. OP assumes the Brotherhood and Super Mutant are males and thus feels there needs to be more women. What if I assume those figures are female? Lore can back either point of view but in the end, assuming gets you nowhere. The first 3 letters of that word are what we look like when we assume. Being an SJW over an assumption is even worse. Asking for additional, more gender specific models only creates more traps. Increased production costs for starters. Then people will want transgender figures or any of the other flavor of preference out there (I am starting to lose count). As it stands, the game really has what, 2 confirmed male characters in the Vault Dweller and the Ghoul? 1 confirmed female and 2 which can go either way. That seems pretty balanced to me.

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6 hours ago, XCoconutMonkey06X said:

I think this whole thing is stupid. It is all based around assumptions... ...The first 3 letters of that word are what we look like when we assume. ...As it stands, the game really has what, 2 confirmed male characters in the Vault Dweller and the Ghoul? 1 confirmed female and 2 which can go either way. That seems pretty balanced to me.

I can see that if you approach this from the perspective of someone that is frustrated by constantly having, what you call the SJW, interfere with the world, that you don't understand why this is a problem.

To me it's not about acronyms that are designed to negate what someone is saying or making cliche references about the word assume. It's just about looking at the gaming industry and talking about the fact that it has a problem with female representation (which I think anyone would be hard pressed to deny).

The characters that you get to choose from in Fallout exemplify the issue.

We live in a bit of a male bubble in gaming. The designers are predominantly male, the executives and reviewers are mostly male and of course the gamers are. So I think what happens is that games get designed in a way that someone thinks is cool, and that happens to naturally reflect a male perspective.

All that is being said here is that it would be nice if designers could think outside of their box (or bubble) and include more female perspectives. If you want to get bogged down in the semantics of insider "Lore" (ie information that is known only by mega fans of the franchise) that's your choice but it is missing the point. The point is, there appears from the outside (without needing to investigate lore) to be 4 male figures and 1 female one to choose from.

As was stated in the first post and as I and others have said, it just would've been nice to see 2 readily identifiable females to choose from in this game, that's it.

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The fact that most people looking at the models automatically identify the BoS Outcast as male says more about the patriarchal society we live in than about FFGs forward thinking or lack thereof. One would think that recent films and series with strong females in armor (Game of Thrones Brienne of Tarth and Star Wars General Phasma for example) would've changed that.

One might also add that both Briennes and Phasmas armor are indistinguishable from the male versions, as is the Power Armor.

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Wow... No wonder women struggle to get involved in this hobby... Looking back through the posts  there are more than twice as many people giving excuses as to why it's ok to have only one represented female (or at least suggesting it's your own fault for seeing it that way... which is just weird..?!?) as there are people saying that it would've been better to have more females.

Fnoffen is right, we do live in a patriarchal society and that is the point, these characters are seen by the majority of players as male and it seems they were designed without much thought for thier implied gender.

It's a little sad to see really (and kinda face slappingly boring), that no matter how simply it's been explained, people seem more interested in coming up with excuses for why everything is "ok" as it is rather than talking about the issue of females in this game and games in general (I'm hoping it's just a case of TLDR).

So here's the question (and maybe it needs to be a new thread but...) do you think that women are equally represented in gaming (players at the table), and if not why not and what can we or should we do about it?

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8 hours ago, player2017979 said:

So here's the question (and maybe it needs to be a new thread but...) do you think that women are equally represented in gaming (players at the table), and if not why not and what can we or should we do about it?

I don't think women are equally represented in gaming. I don't think we should be trying to get equal representation though. Gaming should be equally accessible to both men and women, but this is entertainment and at the end of the day the individual need to decide for themselves what they find entertaining. It would be an interesting study to see if there is equal representation between the sexes in other forms of entertainment. We shouldn't be putting up barriers to get into the hobby, but at the same time we need to realize that not every game will appeal to everyone. I will say this though, my entire gaming group are women and there are a fair number of women that play at the FLGS that I play at.

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On 2/3/2018 at 5:58 PM, jcmonson said:

I don't think women are equally represented in gaming. I don't think we should be trying to get equal representation though. 

I guess this kinda says it all... While I do agree that not every game is for everyone, I still think we should be making an effort increase female representation in gaming.

While exact stats seem impossible to come by, the general estimate seems to be that women represent between 10% and 20% of the population of board gamers (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1560786/what-percentage-gamers-are-women). If nothing else surely this demonstrates a market that remains untapped! 

Anyway, all I know is, I would prefer to see more of an effort made to actively include more women in gaming because there obviously are barriers to participation. I think that one of the easiest ways to do that would involve simply changing the perceptions women have of the hobby, by having them in the games we play.  

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 I see the trolls and sjw are out in full force. 

1 hour ago, player2017979 said:

I guess this kinda says it all... While I do agree that not every game is for everyone, I still think we should be making an effort increase female representation in gaming.

While exact stats seem impossible to come by, the general estimate seems to be that women represent between 10% and 20% of the population of board gamers (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1560786/what-percentage-gamers-are-women). If nothing else surely th

Anyway, all I know is, I would prefer to see more of an effort made to actively include more women in gaming because there obviously are barriers to participation. I think that one of the easiest ways to do that would involve simply changing the perceptions women have of the hobby, by having them in the games

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2 hours ago, player2017979 said:

I guess this kinda says it all... While I do agree that not every game is for everyone, I still think we should be making an effort increase female representation in gaming.

While exact stats seem impossible to come by, the general estimate seems to be that women represent between 10% and 20% of the population of board gamers (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1560786/what-percentage-gamers-are-women). If nothing else surely this demonstrates a market that remains untapped! 

Anyway, all I know is, I would prefer to see more of an effort made to actively include more women in gaming because there obviously are barriers to participation. I think that one of the easiest ways to do that would involve simply changing the perceptions women have of the hobby, by having them in the games we play.  

I agree we should have women characters in game where appropriate for the lore. I don't want to see female Supermutants or a redesigned power armor to make it obviously female. I would love to see a female minute man, or a raider, or even a brotherhood of steel palidan with her helmet off. Even a female gen 3 synth could be an option.

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22 hours ago, player2017979 said:

I guess this kinda says it all... While I do agree that not every game is for everyone, I still think we should be making an effort increase female representation in gaming.

While exact stats seem impossible to come by, the general estimate seems to be that women represent between 10% and 20% of the population of board gamers (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1560786/what-percentage-gamers-are-women). If nothing else surely this demonstrates a market that remains untapped! 

Anyway, all I know is, I would prefer to see more of an effort made to actively include more women in gaming because there obviously are barriers to participation. I think that one of the easiest ways to do that would involve simply changing the perceptions women have of the hobby, by having them in the games we play.  

Have kept on asking all the women and girls I know ... Work, Friends etc. .... still yet to find a single one that is bothered about the sex of a playing piece in a boardgame

Now here is the problem with the above quote: That is how you can get Women put on company boards, in politics and may other things ... for no other reason than to show your not some kind of sexist .... doesn't matter if the women can do what they are asked to do, doesn't matter if they are qualified or the best person for the job ... got have a woman to show your equal .... MAYBE the reason there aren't that many female CEO's etc. is Because Women Don't Actually Want To Do Those Things, Maybe they just consider others things to be more important in life than grabbing power and climbing up the ladders .... and in the same way Maybe there is only 20% female gaming population just coz the others Are Not Interested in Gaming!!! .. i know its a crazy thought but maybe they dont play games, not because of the lack of female gender characters, but just coz they would prefer to go to a club, go to a gym, take a night class, or many other reasons.

oh and by the way ... Fallout: 5 characters at least 1 female, so that is 20% of characters ... so it does at least meet present female ratio ... rising to 40% if your not a sexist who believes only men can wear power armour!

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I guess the only thing left to say is wow... :o  I'm obviously talking to a brick wall of oblivion. They're some pretty bizarre and out dated idea's you've got there Slash Macbain. I was previously giving you benefit of the doubt but now I'm guessing you have to be trolling..?!?..

Surely no-one in their right mind thinks like that, it's just backward, ill informed, out dated and weird.

Who wouldn't like gaming? :P

 

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6 hours ago, crow-flash said:

This is pointless. There's nothing sexist in this game. This topic Is just trolling and goes no where. There are no barriers in board games to keep anyone from playing. If you don't like something in game go buy a miniature that you like or customize it. 

I am with Crow on this. I still don't see a sexist view on this game. It really does feel like a troll post because of the far reach on that accusation. It was said that you get "bogged down in the semantics of insider "Lore" in regards to the characters sexes with the Brotherhood and super mutants. Well, the game is designed to appeal to Fallout fans and those said fans are expecting that "insider lore" because that is what is in the video game that they are now are excited is on the table top. You can't throw out lore just to fit your specific view point. 

When I play Uncharted, Nathan Drake is a guy. I don't feel that is oppressive or sexist because that is how the story & game were written. When playing Tomb Raider, Lara Croft is a woman. Again, I don't feel that is oppressive or sexist because that is how that particular story & game was written. Fallout was was made in a certain way with its own lore. Fans of all 3 games expect the lore to remain, no matter what the medium is. If they made a Tomb Raider board game, you can expect everyone will want to play the Lara Croft figure because that is the lore and the main character. You won't see people complaining about the lack of some forced in "dude bro" figure to even the sexes count because that is just plain stupid. It doesn't fit the story or lore. 

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Crow and Coco .. exactly

and Player i'm curious why i'm backwards because i believe people may exist that Just Don't Want To Play Board Games? ... That there are people Not Obsessed with Power and promotions

but lets end this shall we ... two words: Kathleen Kennedy!

Nuff Said

archerfilmfestival-web-img_4330_-_h_2017.jpg

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16 hours ago, crow-flash said:

This is pointless...  There are no barriers in board games to keep anyone from playing...

I can see what people are trying to say but I guess I'm simply pointing out that they're looking at this from a very male perspective (which is normal, we're men..).

:huh: Not really sure what Slash's point about one women being in a position of power says about this topic exactly but anyway... (is it cause she's a control freak??).

I don't think it's trolling if it's civilised and I do think having this discussion is a good thing. So I guess I just find it a bit strange that people can't see that there is nothing far fetched about the idea that having only one female out of 5 characters in a game is a little sexist.

I know generally speaking that people have already made up their minds on this, but I'll try one last time to give some insight into what kind of obstacles I think women face in this and other male dominated areas.

Say you're a middle aged white male going for a job interview for a high end managerial position at a Fortune 500 firm. You've got all the skills and experience asked for and confidently head off to the interview at the company. When you arrive you sit down in the waiting room with a bunch of other applicants and start looking through a company brochure. After a few pages you start to notice that ALL of the people who work at this company are... lets say for the purposes of this discussion... young black women. You then realise looking around the room that all of the other applicants are also young black women and suddenly get the feeling that maybe this is the culture of this work place and that based on that culture you probably won't be a  good "fit" for the job. You enter the interview room with a panel of the board members you'd be working with and your fears are realised, they too are young, black and female, looking to hire someone to add the same sort of values they have to their company... 

So I guess this what I see many women facing in male dominated fields today, including playing board games.

I know it probably won't change anyone's mind on this but I thought it might be a good way to finish my explanation of this idea and hopefully help others to at least understand the subtlety of bias that occurs in this sort of thing.

"All advocacy is, at its core, an exercise in empathy".

Just a bit of food for thought...

  

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That would makes sense for a new IP. Fallout is established as is. Take, for example, PHG's Ashes game. There is, I would hazard to say, more female Phoenixborn characters than male and everyone I know who plays it is ok with that (and they are all guys). It works because it wasn't a previously established IP that was shoehorned to fit someone else's world views. It was fresh, new, and the creators made it that way. Fallout never had anatomically correct power armor nor has there ever been flagrant female super mutants. It just wasn't how it was written/created. I have zero issues with stronger female characters in new IPs. Just don't force established IPs to alter their lore and such. 

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