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SirCormac

PS Race - Is it time to nerf VI?

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56 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

Who would actually want it then? Even among the generics most are there for missile spam. Seems like ripping up the card over a handful of problem children.

 

Maybe, maybe not. I suppose it will depend on how efficient the new ps9s and their friends become. I don’t want to get back to the whisper plus echo list era.

Well, that's the exact reason I want a hard cap. Imagine Whisper was PS 8 or nine and you had to beat a VI whisper with 10 or 11 ps to even think about winning! This situations happen (look at Nym) and they limit the amount of option painfully.
Hardcapping ps means that you will always have a healthy pool of options (the worst thing you might have to reach is ps 9 so ps7 and8pilots with VI/Adapt and ps9 with an ept of choice are viable at all times.
Of course you have to go into a bidding war when, but a bidding war includes actual hard choices. You have a lot of options where to shave a few points off your list for bidding and doing this revards actual list building skill as you need a keen eye for whats worth it and what's not. And if the bidding war goes too crazy full point lists will start taking advantage of it so its is a much more diverse and healthy meta we would have if we had a hard cap for ps.

Edited by Hannes Solo

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5 hours ago, SirCormac said:

First, let's look at the main offenders: Nym, Poe, Vader, QD.

Of that list, Nym is the only one who never takes any other ept. He is the reason the current ps race started and I think he's the one that needs the nerf. QD is so much better with expertise, Vader and Poe can take better advantage of other epts, like intensity, but Nym has never once been built without VI.  Personally I think the scurrg just has way too many advantages that only having 1 green die does not make up for. Strip it of its ept and it becomes more balanced and ends the ps race, freeing up other native ps9s to use different epts.

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6 hours ago, Rat of Vengence said:

I have no problem with VI as it is. If people want to pay 1 point, plus the MUCH greater opportunity cost of not having a different skill, and then face my PS 5 squadron, I'm perfectly okay with that :D

 

Image result for star wars no problem gif

^ This. Opportunity cost is a real thing. 

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1 minute ago, DXCrazytrain said:

Of that list, Nym is the only one who never takes any other ept. He is the reason the current ps race started and I think he's the one that needs the nerf. QD is so much better with expertise, Vader and Poe can take better advantage of other epts, like intensity, but Nym has never once been built without VI.  Personally I think the scurrg just has way too many advantages that only having 1 green die does not make up for. Strip it of its ept and it becomes more balanced and ends the ps race, freeing up other native ps9s to use different epts.

^This, too. Don't ruin the game because an expac ruined the game. Fix the expac. VI is fine. 

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There may be some troubles and imbalances in the game - but I think it's in the best state it has ever been since I started playing. I love the variety of squad archetypes that it's possible to fly well. Are there cool pilots that I wish were competitive but just aren't? Sure, but there's a lot of fun stuff that is competitive.

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1 hour ago, DXCrazytrain said:

Of that list, Nym is the only one who never takes any other ept. He is the reason the current ps race started and I think he's the one that needs the nerf. QD is so much better with expertise, Vader and Poe can take better advantage of other epts, like intensity, but Nym has never once been built without VI.  Personally I think the scurrg just has way too many advantages that only having 1 green die does not make up for. Strip it of its ept and it becomes more balanced and ends the ps race, freeing up other native ps9s to use different epts.

And yet Nym really hasn’t made it to top tables following the Genius nerf.

Nym’s downside is he now melts to focus fire, and his shenanigans are greatly reduced. Scum Nym no longer exists at all, and Rebel Nym isn’t as popular.

i imagine that the next few big events will support this. Nym may have started the PS war but the war has exceeded his lifespan as a top contender.

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Overall I thing as a general rule game wide. Add 1 additional point for all PS 9 pilots on the board, 2 additional points for all PS 10 pilots on the board and 4 additional points for all PS 11 pilots on the board.

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I do not think anyone mentioned this, but nerfing VI would eliminate some list archetypes in a rather diverse meta, namely ps11 alpha strike and ps11 ace + friend(s).

If you are not equipped to fight ps11 it sucks. However, there are many lists that can hang with them such as lists containing high health, turrets, ability to remove TL, Ill show you the dark side, Fenn Rau rebel support, among others.

Edited by Kijaucey

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8 hours ago, SirCormac said:

I know this is a 'nerf' post, but it really is a simple question, but one that had been on my mind recently (and my hunch is that the developers are at least watching closely this issue). We've had PS races in X-Wing before, but I don't think we've ever had it quite this bad. And we've had times where certain cards dominated (such as PTL) only to see them fade in popularity, even when people were crying for them to be nerfed, but it turns out that the shifting meta solved the problem. So while this could happen with VI, I do believe that the VI problem we are currently undergoing is different than the PTL era that dominated a few years ago.

1. PTL is necessary to make some ships function: Soontir Fel, Carnor Jax, Jake Farrell, Norra Wexley, etc. pretty much all need PTL to actual function as ships. VI, on the other hand, is not necessary for some ships to function, but I will grant you that other ships do need it to function. Who are they you might ask? PS 7 ships really, really need VI to function, 90% of the time (Jake Farrell and Backdraft are two good examples of this). But for ships like QD and Vader, VI is really just a 'luxury' that they can benefit from because they don't need any particular EPT to function.

2. PTL has counters, VI doesn't: Stresshogs, Stressbugs, Rebel Captive, Tactician, Asajj, etc. are all ways you can make PTL users cringe. Sootnir Fel never likes to see a Stresshog on the other side of the table, and its no surprise a stresshog was in the winning list of worlds when PTL Fel's were everywhere. VI, on the other hand, doesn't really have a counter (except, maybe, Kylo crew). You pretty much gain the benefit and there is nothing your opponent can do about it except try to out-PS you, or at least tie.

3. This leads us to our third point: the current PS craze constrains list-building. Yes, PS 5 Lowrrick is fine, and PS 7 Dash is doing well, but many, many PS 7s aren't cutting it because they can't compete. Most PS 7's were designed to take VI and tie the PS 9s, but those PS 9s are PS 11 so the PS 7s are back to square one. Further, some PS 9s are really in the same boat, such as Fenn, Fel, and Kylo. To function properly, these aces need either PTL or Attanni, and VI doesn't really work on them (except maybe Kylo with FCS and TT). But if you take a Fenn or Fel to a tournament, however good you may fly, you will eventually come up against a PS 10 Nym, PS 11 Poe, PS 11 QD, or PS 11 Vader, and you are going to be out of luck.

So, these are some problems I see, but how did we get here? Hasn't VI been in the game since wave 2? Well, I think there are some reasons for that:

First, let's look at the main offenders: Nym, Poe, Vader, QD. Besides Vader (who was wave 1, but more on that in a bit), the 'oldest' ace here is Poe from wave 7. VI Poe did win a worlds, but he quickly faded from the meta as Defenders and Torp Scouts showed up, and hasn't really been useful until recently with Comm Relay and Intensity. But now with Adv. Optics, Poe can return to VI and get up to 11, so actually, he's the newest kid to join the party, really. Vader, while being wave 1, was in a crummy platform, and it really took a fix and awesome missiles to finally put him back on the table. QD and Nym have been good since they came out, basically (QD needed LWF, and Missiles really help him too, of course). So all of these factors have given us pilots that live at 10 and 11 when we never really saw that in the game before. We've seen races to get to 9, but I'm much more ok with that because that gives PS 8s and 7s a fighting chance to get up to the privileged 9.

So what's the solution? My suggestion is to cap the PS at 9, excluding rare edge cases (like Roark Garnet, for example). This could be done in the rules, and wouldn't need to change a card. How would this change the game?

1. PS 7s and 8s become much more appealing, especially ones designed with VI in mind

2. PS 9s that don't already have their EPT accounted for are more free to explore other options. Maybe Juke on Vader? Maybe Intensity? Maybe Trick shot on QD? Maybe Score to Settle? Regardless, as of now, these choices, however interesting they may be, are simply off the table because you really have to put VI on them to make them work. That's bad for the game.

3. PS 9s that do already have their EPT accounted for instantly become more viable. Fenn, Fel, Whisper, Kylo, all become not just more playable, but realistically competitive. This would allow, for example, the Imperials to have Missile carriers in QD and Vader as one arch-type, but could also go for a more arc-dodging arch-type in Fel, Jax, etc. It would open up more options.

In conclusion, I think VI was a card from another era of the game when most ships that could take it didn't particularly want it, so the designers created an amazing card that didn't really have anything amazing to take it yet (kind of like Deadeye), which now is rearing it's ugly head. An alternative to my plan would be to make VI only equipable if your PS is 7 or lower, but that would still allow Adaptability to be put on Vader and QD, which I think would be the auto-include and would limit listbuilding again. I love playing QD, and my main list has him in it, but I don't like the fact that I need to chase PS when there are other interesting EPTs out there that I can't really take. Anyways, just my two cents. What do you guys think?

Personally, I don't get it. I think Veteran Instincts is a lot like the card Sol Ring in Magic the Gathering. People run it because everyone else does.  I just find it very difficult to believe that people can't build a list with enough offence and defense to be able to handle not shooting first. Instincts is good, and there is a definite benefit to using it, but I hardly feel that I am doomed to failure if I choose not to put it on a ship.

 

"The dark side is strong in me, for I am Sith."

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just wondering OP, is it the Scurrg that reignited this thought? That was just a design mistake; the game didn't have nor need an EPT Bomber.

I too never liked VI or adaptability. It was a bad design from its genesis, and is now a thing to which the game is invariably stuck.

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VI is fine. On many ships there is conflict regarding what EPT to use. The real issue is that the various pilots aren't always costed appropriately.

AndI agree if this is about the Scurgg its not the EPT that is the problem. Its the Scurgg having an EPT slot in general.

Edited by BadMotivator

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I liked the topic original post, not necessarily because I agree, but because you made some very well-reasoned arguments. I think VI is probably OK for now. The devs will have to keep an eye on it.

9 hours ago, SirCormac said:

But if you take a Fenn or Fel to a tournament, however good you may fly, you will eventually come up against a PS 10 Nym, PS 11 Poe, PS 11 QD, or PS 11 Vader, and you are going to be out of luck.

Soontir Fel is one of the best blockers in the game. If he is up against a PS 10 whatever, he is happy because a) he can reposition like crazy to be where he needs to be to block, and b) the opponent doesn't have Expertise or Predator or Lone Wolf, etc. so blocking actually makes a difference. Granted, he'd rather not be relegated to blocking duty, but there are worse choices for that role.

I would like to think that VI is one of those cards that you choose knowing that you risk wasting points and the Elite Talent slot if you come up against a low PS squad, but right now, the low PS don't seem to be able to make them pay for it consistently. I will say that TIE strikers do pretty darn well against VI squads because there are fewer ships to gun down, and we can be extremely unpredictable.

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Hey!  Hey!  I got it!  I know how to fix it!

We move all our ships at the same time.  You may need to bring lots of paperweights and templates, or even friends because you don't have enough hands (or lack the dexterity - dexterity better, scrub!), but yes - we move them ALL, slowly and simultaneously, sliding them ever so carefully along their templates.

Then we have them all SHOOT at the same time too! 

 

It's fine.  The PS thing isn't a problem.

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Lower pilot skill just needs to be cheaper. A lot cheaper.

If say Academy Pilots were 8 points each, then there would be a serious potential for getting way outnumbered by crap ships. Meaning they could actually survive to shoot stuff consistently. 

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12 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

Lower pilot skill just needs to be cheaper. A lot cheaper.

If say Academy Pilots were 8 points each, then there would be a serious potential for getting way outnumbered by crap ships. Meaning they could actually survive to shoot stuff consistently. 

Sort of. I don't think having 12 ships on the board is a good idea (games would be way too slow), but conversely making pilots pay a lot more for higher skill would improve things dramatically. Each point of PS shouldn't simply cost 1 squad point (with another 2 PS for 1 point if you're willing to take VI), and then usually come with a better pilot ability as well.

Edited by ObiWonka

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4 hours ago, drail14me said:

Exactly! VI and adaptability should be used to create veriation amount generic pilots only. 

I tend to play low-PS ships, so VI hasn't really affected me either way, but I kind of like this idea for lore purposes, at least.

With unique pilots, we know who they are.  Their pilot skill should already reflect that.  With generics, we just have a sort of average value for a particular squadron or group, and the idea that some of them may be a little above that average makes sense.

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4 minutes ago, ObiWonka said:

Sort of. I don't think having 12 ships on the board is a good idea (games would be way too slow), but conversely making pilots pay a lot more for higher skill would improve things dramatically.

This I do agree with mostly. Not all pilots of high ps need adjusted but a lot of them do. Also ept should be directly linked to ps. A ps so high gets you one, period. Too low, nope sorry you don’t get one. Generics should be generics not the awakening talent of a budding named pilot. I think some of jumpgate could have been avoided with this change from go.

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My issue with VI and Adaptability isn't really with game play, it's more thematic. I think it's silly to be able to just make any pilot better than Wedge, Luke, Vader, Poe, etc. I feel like a pilots PS should be based on their canon character. I think VI and adaptability should be used to get more variety among generic pilots.

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