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The Last Jedi - General Discussion [LOTS OF SPOILERS]

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4 hours ago, Celestial Lizards said:

One of the most badass moments in all of Star Wars? Come on, that was godamm cool!

After seeing it a second time, I think what was so incredibly off-putting to me was not the scene itself. It was the cheering audience. It reminded me that Luke dusting off his shoulder was put in the movie only for this effect. To have people clapping. When I went to see the movie a second time, the audience was much smaller and not as cheer-happy. And suddenly, many things didn't bother me as much anymore. I still think the dust-off wasn't necessary, because it weakened a tense moment. But as it is, I can take it or leave it.

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Movie left me feeling confused. Overall, I wasn’t a fan. I thought the fleet chasing the Cruiser with its infinite shields was time limit/tension constructing for the sake of it. I also didn’t get the whole bomber doors opening into a vacuum dropping space bombs with real world physics. I can suspend my disbelief for Star Wars but I need something to help me along.

Kylo was a brilliant character in this film. I find Rey a bit wooden and almost Mary-Sue like, but their scenes together were good. The Snoke death was my favourite part.

Luke was brilliant, I thought. But for some reason it all felt a bit low-stakes to me.

The scenes on the Monte Carlo planet were a bit forced, I thought. But I really loved the design of the yacht thing which looked like the Sorosuub Yacht from Star Wars Galaxies in the design. 

I did like the casual force powers being shown at the end. Audible gasp in the cinema at the kid with the broom. Overall though, I thought it wasn’t a very coherent film. I still want to know who Snoke is!

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Many of the comments I’ve seen, positive and negative, have common traits: they’re either too narrow or too broad.

I’m not going to take the time right now to call them all out individually because I need to make breakfast for my children. 

So if you’re reading this and you have a complaint or a compliment for the film, especially any of the controversies already discussed, I suggest you try two things. 

“Look closer.” - Rose

”Reach out.” - Luke (not with your hand)

The Last Jedi is a flawed movie.

The Last Jedi is a great Star Wars movie. 

Context for my next comment: I’ve cried twice in the last ten years. Once when my grandfather died. Once when I thought I was dying on an emergency room gurney. I am not a crying person. 

There were parts of The Last Jedi I wanted to shed a tear for. I laughed. I clapped. I cringed at some gross errors. I walked away with the one thing I wanted most from the movie, an enjoyable Star Wars experience shared with someone I love. (My wife won’t read this, but I’m talking about her anyway.)

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32 minutes ago, jmswood said:

Many of the comments I’ve seen, positive and negative, have common traits: they’re either too narrow or too broad.

I’m not going to take the time right now to call them all out individually because I need to make breakfast for my children. 

So if you’re reading this and you have a complaint or a compliment for the film, especially any of the controversies already discussed, I suggest you try two things. 

“Look closer.” - Rose

”Reach out.” - Luke (not with your hand)

The Last Jedi is a flawed movie.

The Last Jedi is a great Star Wars movie. 

Context for my next comment: I’ve cried twice in the last ten years. Once when my grandfather died. Once when I thought I was dying on an emergency room gurney. I am not a crying person. 

There were parts of The Last Jedi I wanted to shed a tear for. I laughed. I clapped. I cringed at some gross errors. I walked away with the one thing I wanted most from the movie, an enjoyable Star Wars experience shared with someone I love. (My wife won’t read this, but I’m talking about her anyway.)

Well it seems I get to hit like twice at least!

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2 hours ago, jmswood said:

Many of the comments I’ve seen, positive and negative, have common traits: they’re either too narrow or too broad.

I’m not going to take the time right now to call them all out individually because I need to make breakfast for my children. 

So if you’re reading this and you have a complaint or a compliment for the film, especially any of the controversies already discussed, I suggest you try two things. 

“Look closer.” - Rose

”Reach out.” - Luke (not with your hand)

The Last Jedi is a flawed movie.

The Last Jedi is a great Star Wars movie. 

Context for my next comment: I’ve cried twice in the last ten years. Once when my grandfather died. Once when I thought I was dying on an emergency room gurney. I am not a crying person. 

There were parts of The Last Jedi I wanted to shed a tear for. I laughed. I clapped. I cringed at some gross errors. I walked away with the one thing I wanted most from the movie, an enjoyable Star Wars experience shared with someone I love. (My wife won’t read this, but I’m talking about her anyway.)

The week before I saw the disaster artist laughed all the way through, this week I saw tlj and didn't smile let alone laugh.

It started with a prank call and kept going down hill from there.

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Bad things:

Plot armor. Plot armor everywhere.

Also: how the **** dit Phasma survive to be in this flick?

The Resistance has the sloooooooooooowest bombers everrrrrr...

New order stubornly refuses to use their numerical superiority and shoot stuff.

Poe dameron is OP as F***! They should have just let him go it alone against Snoke's ship.

Jedi = god mode.

Edited by Robin Graves

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12 hours ago, debiler said:

After seeing it a second time, I think what was so incredibly off-putting to me was not the scene itself. It was the cheering audience. It reminded me that Luke dusting off his shoulder was put in the movie only for this effect. To have people clapping. When I went to see the movie a second time, the audience was much smaller and not as cheer-happy. And suddenly, many things didn't bother me as much anymore. I still think the dust-off wasn't necessary, because it weakened a tense moment. But as it is, I can take it or leave it.

A clapping and cheering overly-excited audience can ruin the best scenes. It’s true.

 

my theater had someone braying like a donkey at every tiny joke, so it felt like too much humor. I think it’ll be fine when I rewatch.

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Good things:

Luke. Looking badass in those robes. Good fight. Good death.

Snoke acknowledges Emo Ren looks like a kid cosplaying as Darth Vader.

Snoke's death. He went out like a punk. Good.

New AT-ATs look good.

Those Guinea pig/penguin things look cute.

 

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On ‎15‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 10:53 AM, Conandoodle said:

I agree with a lot of the points above.

I have some questions for you all: How awesome was the first Matrix move? How fun was the first Pirates of the Caribbean film? Wasn't the first Transformers film fun? I think most of would answer yes to these questions.

But what happened to their sequels? The 2nd and 3rd instalment of these franchises was just 5 hours of stuff happening. No strong narrative, just an excuse for action sequences. TLJ falls into this category. It was just 'stuff' for 2 hours.

My next question to you all: Did you, at any point, feel the rebels were in any real danger? I certainly did not. I don't watch Avengers because I know that no matter what threat presents itself, Iron man, Thor, etc will overcome it, win and look awesome doing it.

The sequals are rarely better. I think only The Empire strikes back and Aliens really pull that off.

Well the (new) main characters haver rediculous amounts of plot armor. And at the end, the entire active resistance fits inside the Millenium Falcon. The entire resistance. Let that sink in for a moment.

Oh wait, we got two OP force users, Finn with so much plot armor it's reaching Joker-Imunity levels and Poe-God-of-Starfighters-Dameron. Yeah they are not in trouble.

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I put this in the other thread, but will cross-post here for general discussion:

Overall, a good, solid Star Wars movie.  Not great – I’d certainly put it behind Empire Strikes Back, Star Wars, and Rogue One, perhaps on par with Return of the Jedi, slightly better than The Force Awakens.

Likes:
-    Plot mostly wasn’t derivative – I was expecting an ESB rehash. It had pieces of that (Rey training) but not in a bad way and as necessary.  Though change the opening location to Yavin and closing location to Hoth and you have a plot that shoehorns well into the original trilogy.
-    Good battle scenes as bookends (with some issues, below).
-    The Luke-Rey-Kylo dynamic was excellent; good character growth, tension, some backstory/history/ certain point of view appropriate to Star Wars.
-    Nothing wrong with the odd lightsaber fight or two in a core movie.
-    Poe’s still one **** of a pilot.
-    BB-8 still steals scenes.
-    Porgs are cute without going all Ewok. 
-    Other funky monsters & aliens, good for a Star Wars movie.
-    We now know where blue milk comes from!
-    Yoda nod.  Cheesy, but I liked it.
-    Sith apprentice nod with Kylo/Snoke. Nice to set Kylo up to be the final BBEG for the last movie.
-    Luke’s … death isn’t the right word.  I expected him to die; thought they handled it well.  
-    Rey has no special backstory. Sure, Kylo could be lying, but I hope he’s not because it’s too trite to make her a Skywalker (or Kenobi, or insert fanfic here).
-    Discussion of what the Force is … without midichlorians or Star Wars physics mumbo jumbo.

Dislikes:
-    Cell phone jokes at the opening.  Too soon, Junior.
-    The First Order is a horrible military. Like: don’t launch fighters in any of your battles (except Kylo and two wingmen) until way too late.  Don’t flank – everything’s a frontal assault. Oh, and you’re chasing an opponent who is retreating at your maximum speed? Instead of chasing for days, maybe, you know … hyperspace ahead of them and cut them off?
-    Flying ice Leia.  I mean, Star Wars physics, but c’mon.
-    Gravity bombs. In space. One baby bomber kills super-dreadnaught. Sigh … Star Wars physics getting silly.
-    “I’m too smart to tell anyone my plan” Admiral. There was a plan – why not explain? Would have been a good opportunity to fix the next issue …
-    The entire Finn-Rose subplot adds nothing to the movie.  They wander off, accomplish exactly nothing, and end up back with everyone for the finale. You could have had a subplot with them finding a spy or tracker on the cruiser (which would have fit with the tight-lipped Admiral trying not to give an advantage to the spy) and accomplished more, plus saved 30-odd minutes of movie.  Sure, you can’t introduce White Lando, but at the moment he’s pointless anyway.
-    Look, all-powerful evil dude! Poof … he’s gone! Could have worked in a little Snoke and rise of First Order backstory; opportunity wasted.
-    I expected Leia to die, too frankly – would have been better to kill her off in this movie.
-    Resuscitating Phasma for yet another dubious death scene. Now she’s 2x as useless as Boba Fett (again, delete the whole Finn arc and it really tightens up the movie).
-    Hyperwave comms mumbo-jumbo.  Feels too Star Trek.
-     Timelines.  Seems too rushed – could have been spread out a bit more.
-    First Order is mustache-twirling evil. Sure, that’s a trope – but it could be more nuanced.
-    Chekov’s X-Wing didn’t pay off.
-    Ackbar dying off screen.

- Where are Jess Pava and Snap Wexley?


 

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OK, just rewatching Rogue One (again), and I have to draw some comparisons to The Last Jedi.

The characters - Vader in Rogue One is hands down the more effective villain than Snoke in Last Jedi.  Both share a limited amount of screen time, but Vader maximises his minutes and deserves his reputation, Snoke does not.

The rivalry between Tarkin and Krennic can be compared to that between Hux and Kylo.  Kylo improves as the film goes on, but Hux is portrayed as almost totally incompetent.  Tarkin and Krennic are both presented as conniving, intelligent villains, and their rivalry helps drive the narrative.  K-2SO and BB-8.  K2 offers a lot of comedic moments, but in an understated manner compared to BB-8.  Physically he appears more capable than BB8, but somehow BB-8 has God-tier abilities?

The Last Jedi's CGI is better for the most part, and Crait is beautiful, but the set design in Rogue One is more typically and identifiably Star Wars.  The practical alien design in Rogue One is also so much better - specifically compare the holy city on Jeddah and the aliens there to Canto Bight - no contest!

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2 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

OK, just rewatching Rogue One (again), and I have to draw some comparisons to The Last Jedi.

The characters - Vader in Rogue One is hands down the more effective villain than Snoke in Last Jedi.  Both share a limited amount of screen time, but Vader maximises his minutes and deserves his reputation, Snoke does not.

The rivalry between Tarkin and Krennic can be compared to that between Hux and Kylo.  Kylo improves as the film goes on, but Hux is portrayed as almost totally incompetent.  Tarkin and Krennic are both presented as conniving, intelligent villains, and their rivalry helps drive the narrative.  K-2SO and BB-8.  K2 offers a lot of comedic moments, but in an understated manner compared to BB-8.  Physically he appears more capable than BB8, but somehow BB-8 has God-tier abilities?

The Last Jedi's CGI is better for the most part, and Crait is beautiful, but the set design in Rogue One is more typically and identifiably Star Wars.  The practical alien design in Rogue One is also so much better - specifically compare the holy city on Jeddah and the aliens there to Canto Bight - no contest!

I agree on these points, for sure.

However, neither Rogue One nor any other Star Wars film has a storyline quite like the one with Rey, Kylo, Luke, and Snoke. I think the end of RotJ is similar, but the plot twists and character development in the TLJ storyline are just fantastic. I would also say that both movies have messages about failure, forgiveness, and hope, and that, at least in my own opinion, the messages are just a little stronger in TLJ.

This movie is less perfect than Rogue One, but it also has more to offer if you're looking for it. 

So I think that they're very different Star Wars movies, and each has stuff that the other doesn't. I think both are fantastic, and well-deserving of the Star Wars name. I'm not sure why I'm having so much trouble finding people who like both - honestly, other than Episodes II and III, I've never met a Star Wars movie I didn't like. 

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14 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

Kind of in the middle of a SW marathon today. 

The Lucas added footage is so jarring and unnecessary. The idiotic added song and dance routing in Jabba’s Palace is almost enough to make you turn off the movie. 

I would love, love, love Disney to release a cleaned up but otherwise untouched theatrical version of the Original Trilogy.  Lucas added a couple of good things during the tinkering, but the vast majority, nope.

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My review from Facebook:

After seeing and letting it sink in, overall I enjoyed it. I give it a C+. 

 

The Good:

-Luke’s Story and his overall arc. This is the most controversial part of the movie, by far the best. (Some people say it ruined Star Wars.) This is Mark Hamill’s best work to date. My only complaint on this front is there was not enough time spent with Rey and Luke. I wish Rey got more Jedi lessons. I loved Luke’s death, it went with George Lucas’s original vision of a Jedi, that Jedi Masters do not need lightsabers. (One of the things I hated about the prequels, the Yoda Lightsaber battles.) Also, I loved the Knights of the Old Republic reference about being able to sever yourself from the force.

 

-Rey and Kylo story. This is so well done and adds a lot to each of the characters and their link to each other.

 

-The world building. The detail in creating the worlds was pretty awesome. The new worlds we were introduced to were so well established.

 

-Poe’s character. Oscar Issac does an amazing job with Poe. In fact he reminds me of a couple real life F-15 pilots I know.

 

The bad:

 

-The humor. While I laughed at it, it lightened the mood too much during intense moments.

 

-The battles. They had no real impact to the story. Nothing was really accomplished for either side. Both sides continue to fail with their plans. And some being just too cheesy. I know one of the themes was learning from failure, but it did nothing for tension.

 

-The Finn and Rose story. It could have been cut, or cut down. The Casino planet was cool, but it could have been cut completely or really reduced.

 

-The heroic sacrifice trope. It was very much over used, to the point where you are expecting it. Way overplayed, even when it did not work out.

 

The Ugly

 

-Space Witch Leia. Enough said.

 

-Rey’s backs story. I love the idea and theme of no one becoming someone. In Rey’s case it is too late for that. In the Force Awakens she is way to skillful and powerful with the force to not have any backstory. This was a chance to correct one of The Force Awakens major flaws, and it was squandered. (If Kylo was not lying.)

 

-The Hyperspace Ram. This is out of place in the Star Wars universe because it majorly changes how warfare is conducted and how Hyperspace works in universe.

 

-The theme. Destroying the past also destroys the fan base. I understand that Disney wants to go their own direction but it also destroys good will with the fans.

 

-BB-8 humor. They are treading on very bad ground here.

 

The Meh.

 

-Captain Phasma & DJ. Major let downs.

 

-Both sides are in weaker positions than when we started. It does not lead me looking forward to a sequel.

 

Conclusion:

It was the Conclusion to George Lucas’s Star Wars. Which is fine, but it was the wrong movie to put it in. Knowing there is one movie left it leaves episode 9 in a really weak place.  

 

I put this film slightly below The Force Awakens and above Revenge of the Sith.

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44 minutes ago, Jadotch said:

My review from Facebook:

After seeing and letting it sink in, overall I enjoyed it. I give it a C+. 

 

The Good:

-Luke’s Story and his overall arc. This is the most controversial part of the movie, by far the best. (Some people say it ruined Star Wars.) This is Mark Hamill’s best work to date. My only complaint on this front is there was not enough time spent with Rey and Luke. I wish Rey got more Jedi lessons. I loved Luke’s death, it went with George Lucas’s original vision of a Jedi, that Jedi Masters do not need lightsabers. (One of the things I hated about the prequels, the Yoda Lightsaber battles.) Also, I loved the Knights of the Old Republic reference about being able to sever yourself from the force.

 

-Rey and Kylo story. This is so well done and adds a lot to each of the characters and their link to each other.

 

-The world building. The detail in creating the worlds was pretty awesome. The new worlds we were introduced to were so well established.

 

-Poe’s character. Oscar Issac does an amazing job with Poe. In fact he reminds me of a couple real life F-15 pilots I know.

 

The bad:

 

-The humor. While I laughed at it, it lightened the mood too much during intense moments.

 

-The battles. They had no real impact to the story. Nothing was really accomplished for either side. Both sides continue to fail with their plans. And some being just too cheesy. I know one of the themes was learning from failure, but it did nothing for tension.

 

-The Finn and Rose story. It could have been cut, or cut down. The Casino planet was cool, but it could have been cut completely or really reduced.

 

-The heroic sacrifice trope. It was very much over used, to the point where you are expecting it. Way overplayed, even when it did not work out.

 

The Ugly

 

-Space Witch Leia. Enough said.

 

-Rey’s backs story. I love the idea and theme of no one becoming someone. In Rey’s case it is too late for that. In the Force Awakens she is way to skillful and powerful with the force to not have any backstory. This was a chance to correct one of The Force Awakens major flaws, and it was squandered. (If Kylo was not lying.)

 

-The Hyperspace Ram. This is out of place in the Star Wars universe because it majorly changes how warfare is conducted and how Hyperspace works in universe.

 

-The theme. Destroying the past also destroys the fan base. I understand that Disney wants to go their own direction but it also destroys good will with the fans.

 

-BB-8 humor. They are treading on very bad ground here.

 

The Meh.

 

-Captain Phasma & DJ. Major let downs.

 

-Both sides are in weaker positions than when we started. It does not lead me looking forward to a sequel.

 

Conclusion:

It was the Conclusion to George Lucas’s Star Wars. Which is fine, but it was the wrong movie to put it in. Knowing there is one movie left it leaves episode 9 in a really weak place.  

 

I put this film slightly below The Force Awakens and above Revenge of the Sith.

I’m pretty sure Kylo was not being honest about Rey’s parentage. 

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2 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

The Last Jedi's CGI is better for the most part, and Crait is beautiful, but the set design in Rogue One is more typically and identifiably Star Wars.  The practical alien design in Rogue One is also so much better - specifically compare the holy city on Jeddah and the aliens there to Canto Bight - no contest!

That's a good point.  Things are a bit too fresh in TLJ (and TFA, for that matter).  The "lived in" feel of the OT is stronger, and well reflected in Rogue One.

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4 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

The entire Finn-Rose subplot adds nothing to the movie.  They wander off, accomplish exactly nothing, and end up back with everyone for the finale. You could have had a subplot with them finding a spy or tracker on the cruiser (which would have fit with the tight-lipped Admiral trying not to give an advantage to the spy) and accomplished more, plus saved 30-odd minutes of movie.  Sure, you can’t introduce White Lando, but at the moment he’s pointless anyway.

I think accomplishing nothing was the point. Everyone in the movie accomplished nothing. Or at least, everyone failed. When thinking on those terms, the movie ends up making a lot of sense. 

Poe lost their entire bomber fleet.

Finn/Rose didn't save the day

Rey failed in turning Kylo

Kylo failed in recruiting Rey

Luke failed Ben.

Luke even failed at burning a tree.

 

In the end, the resistance is what, 20 people? Less? 

 

I've been skimming these posts, so I might have missed it... but the boy in the end, he had the force right?

 

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3 hours ago, Pooleman said:

I’m pretty sure Kylo was not being honest about Rey’s parentage. 

Yep, since they didn't tell us for sure, we'll keep seeing stuff like this until Episode IX comes out and (spoiler) also doesn't tell us who Rey's parents are:

If the timeline worked out that would have actually been interesting though. 

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1 hour ago, treybert said:

I think accomplishing nothing was the point. Everyone in the movie accomplished nothing. Or at least, everyone failed. When thinking on those terms, the movie ends up making a lot of sense. 

Poe lost their entire bomber fleet.

Finn/Rose didn't save the day

Rey failed in turning Kylo

Kylo failed in recruiting Rey

Luke failed Ben.

Luke even failed at burning a tree.

 

In the end, the resistance is what, 20 people? Less? 

 

I've been skimming these posts, so I might have missed it... but the boy in the end, he had the force right?

 

I know ‘failure’ was a major theme of the movie.  If it is handled the right way turns out great. Unfortunately I don’t think The Last Jedi accomplishes that. The way this movie ended, both sides are so weak I don’t respect either. (Except Chewie, Chewie is a bad ***. I never gave him the respect he deserves until the Disney Movies.)

It leaves 9 in a really bad place. There will need to be a major time jump or a 3rd party invasion. (Snokes Master Plan: Pave the way for the ancient  Sith Empire reemergence. The first order and the resistance have to team up.) I just see it as a really bad place to put this kind of ending in a trilogy. It would work as a 4 parter, but a 3 is going to be really difficult to conclude correctly.

Again I still like the film. But the negative aspects can’t be ignored.

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11 hours ago, Robin Graves said:

Bad things:

Also: how the **** dit Phasma survive to be in this flick?

The Resistance has the sloooooooooooowest bombers everrrrrr...

New order stubornly refuses to use their numerical superiority and shoot stuff.

A quick update on Phasma.  Before she joined the Empire she lived on a planet that had a society similar to Immortal Joes, all shinny and chrome...   After the Empire showed her a life beyond the thunder dome she ended up being slightly the highest ranked Storm Trooper in the Empire, the person that is slightly  less ranked as high as her is a guy with all Red Armour storm trooper Armour, its to better hide his nose that some say glows.

 

Now to the meat of the matter, she has lots of acid, not the acid in her utility belt, she burned her way out and then hunted down and killed every imperial that had records showing she was the cause of the shield generator going down.  She is a hyper survivalist that is only and imperial so to stay alive, oh and her cutie mark turtle wax.  Her Armour wont stay shiny and chrome on its own!

11 hours ago, Robin Graves said:

The sequals are rarely better. I think only The Empire strikes back and Aliens really pull that off.

Well the (new) main characters haver rediculous amounts of plot armor. And at the end, the entire active resistance fits inside the Millenium Falcon. The entire resistance. Let that sink in for a moment.

Oh wait, we got two OP force users, Finn with so much plot armor it's reaching Joker-Imunity levels and Poe-God-of-Starfighters-Dameron. Yeah they are not in trouble.

You have made Uncle Bob from Terminator 2 cry, oh and the Sky Captain from "Road Warrior", Death from "Bill and Teds Bogus Adventure says hi", the King has Returned, as has Ash with his Chainsaw from "Evil Dead 2". 

864679__safe_starlight+glimmer_the+cutie

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2 hours ago, Black Knight Leader said:

You have made Uncle Bob from Terminator 2 cry, oh and the Sky Captain from "Road Warrior", Death from "Bill and Teds Bogus Adventure says hi", the King has Returned, as has Ash with his Chainsaw from "Evil Dead 2".

And let's not forget the Godfather...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...part 2.

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13 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

I would love, love, love Disney to release a cleaned up but otherwise untouched theatrical version of the Original Trilogy.  Lucas added a couple of good things during the tinkering, but the vast majority, nope.

Well now disney owns fox they have the rights back so can now release the original movies, before fox owned the release rights to the theatrical cuts.

I'd love to bin the special edition DVDs I own.

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