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MalcolmReynolds

Agenda scoring clarificaton

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Hi all,

Quick question and I am pretty sure we played it correctly but my group still wants to be sure. 

On the agenda cards that say an extra +1 for one task and then +2 for the last task, if you complete that second task the card would now be worth 4 points and not 3 correct. For example, the card that says +1 for 10 caps and then +2 for 16 caps if you had the higher cap total that would now be +4 for that agenda card, not +3 which would only be the default point and then +2 more for reaching the bottom cap goal. We all went with +4 because there are other agenda cards that have two conditions on the bottom but both only have a +1 next to them which makes it seem clear that each extra task on an agenda card can add to the score as a total.

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You need to read each Agenda card carefully because sometimes they try and trick you. For example, that card gives you +1 Influence if you have 10 to 15 caps, and +2 if you have 16 or more. Since you can't possibly have 10-15 and 16+ at the same time, the maximum for that card is 3 (1 base +2 for sixteen caps). Other Agenda cards let you score both bonuses. 

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Are you sure about that Hedgehobbit? Our group argued that getting 16 caps is not that easy so why not have it be +4 instead of +3. The SPECIAL card is similar in that mindset. Though I do see what you are saying. I am really on the fence here on how to handle these. I would love to hear more o pinons on this. I cannot find a solid rule on this anywhere.

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41 minutes ago, MalcolmReynolds said:

Are you sure about that Hedgehobbit?

I really don't see how you could argue it otherwise. You get +1 Influence if you have 10-15 caps. Since you have 16 caps, you don't get that +1. 

The Untouchable Agenda card is similar. You get +1 Influence if your armor is EXACTLY 2 and +2 Influence if it's 3 or higher.

 

None of the non-faction Agenda cards let you score more than three points each.  And some, such as the SPECIAL, one are ridiculously hard to do. 

Edited by Hedgehobbit

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I'm sorry you cannot see my argument but we can see it clearly.

What about the drugs and well rested card? You get +1 for each and yes it makes sense because both additional items are different from each other and not incremental. But no where in the rule books does it say you treat the +2 as the end all additional points. Its very hard to get from the 6 letters of special to all 7. In all four of my games I haven't done it and one game I was trying very hard to. So I can understand the bonus point. Caps is not that easy to accumulate because there are quests and the like to spend them on. The armor is also not that easy to reach +3(except for the vault hunter) so why wouldn't get that that extra influence point.

In the end, our group will refer to the rule books and if they are not clear we try to use the literal text shown on cards. No where in the game does it say to treat the icons/text on the agenda cards different from one card to the other. If it just said somewhere that the non-faction agenda cards have a max of 3 points it would make this issue null but it doesn't. 

Since FFG probably wont reply to any of these posts I am hoping to hear more replies on what others are doing. If more folks are doing it your way Hobbit then I would surely change to that until we get an official FAQ or reply from FFG. I am truly fine with playing it either way but this is a huge issue for us as someone only won last night because we allowed them to have +4 on the payday card.

 

 

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34 minutes ago, MalcolmReynolds said:

I'm sorry you cannot see my argument but we can see it clearly.

I see two things being discussed. One is the actual text on the cards, and the other is the relative value of the non-faction cards considering the difficulty in completing them. 

I agree 100% that the non-faction Agenda cards are inferior to the Faction related ones. Not only do the Faction cards allow a much higher total, but you gains points just by doing the main quest, which often rewards you each step of the way. The non-faction cards, OTOH, often require you to go out of your way and make sub-optimal game choices to complete. 

 

One suggesting I've seen was to rewrite all the faction cards as follows:

+1 if your faction wins

+1 if your faction is two spaces or more ahead of the other faction

Not only would this change encourage players to play the main quest to completion, but it would also limit the value of faction cards and stop encouraging piling on. 

Edited by Hedgehobbit

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I will argue it otherwise:

If I have 16 caps, then I also possess 10-15 caps.

"Hey, will you cover this $10 tip?"   "No, I only have $16."

The xor argument here, and further, varying xor and or between the different agendas, doesn't seem intuitive.

Still, play how your group agrees to play because Fun.

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True but if you, say, spend 12-15 caps for the first condition, you do most likely not have 16 caps to cover the second. Also: 12-15 does indicate that you should have either 12 or 13 or 14 or 15 caps to be eligible to claim that objective. 16 or more is none of those numbers.

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Thanks for the replies Iuchi and Fnoffen. So to be clear are you all voting for option 1 or 2?

1) The non faction agenda cards have a max influence of 3. This means the second condition which awards 2 influence is the most that can be gained with the default +1.

2) The non faction agenda cards have a max influence of 4. You would add both the +1 and the +2 scores when both options are met in addition to the default +1.

 

 

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Option 1 is how we play it. I see the argument for option 2 though. One thought I have though is that is the faction agendas can be worth so much apiece, why does it matter if the non factions are worth 4. Seems fair to me

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The correct one is option one. If you check all of the other cards, they are all specifically conditional and non-cumulative. I don't recall seeing one that has +1 on both, as was mentioned originally, so I might have to go though the cards again, just to be sure. Here I feel it's pretty straight forward: You look at how many total caps you have. If you have more than 16, you don't have 10-15. Sure, within the sum of 16, you also have 10 caps, but you are getting awarded points for total caps, not for each tier of cap you've reached. Another good indicator is also that 16+ gives 2 points. Had it given a single point, it would be option too. Balance wise having the card text jump from 1 to 3 points for a single cap would be crazy. 

Usually, I feel a good rule of thumb is looking at the other cards and establishing the standard. If any cards specifically support that train of thought, then sure. But in the whole, option 2 doesn't make sense.

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Here is the relevant wording from each card and what I think

Untouchable: +1 for exactly 2 armor and +2 for 3 or higher - not much debate there. Exactly makes it clear

Payday: +1 for 10 to 15 caps and +2 for 16 or more - a little less clear, but still seems like one or the other. 16 caps does not fall into the range of 10 to 15

Puppet Master: +1 for 1 of each agenda and +1 if another survivor wins - both seem to be separate, and both only give you 1 point. There is no conditional language here

People Person: +1 for being Idolized and +1 for having 3 or more companions - again, there is no conditional language, so both seem to be separate

Managing it: +1 if you have 3 or more drugs and +1 if you are also well rested - the inclusion of also makes it seem like just being well rested is not enough for the second bonus

Know-it-all: +1 if there is exactly 1 unexplored tile and +2 if there are 0 - exactly makes the intent pretty clear

One-of-a-kind: +1 if you have exactly 6 SPECIAL tokens and +2 if you have 7 - once again exactly makes it clear

So which ones are we disagreeing over? To me the wording on all of them makes the intent pretty clear. Payday and Managing it could be interpreted differently by some, but I don't see it. This also makes the game consistent in that all non-faction cards are worth 3 points at the most.

 

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To make "Payday" more clear, FFG could've worded it like some of the resource objectives from Twilight Imperium (I now spend X [resource]: 1VP) so it would read:

"Spend 12-15 caps to gain 1👍.

Spend 16 or more caps to gain 2 👍."

However, a wording like that would allow you to first spend 12-15 caps for 1 👍 and then spend another 16 or more for an additional 2 👍. Or spend 16 caps twice for 2+2 👍

Then again, if you would actually manage to get a hold of 28 or more caps you've kinda earned the 3 👍.

A clearer wording would thus be:

"Spend 12-15 caps to gain 1👍.

If you instead spend 16 or more caps, gain 2 👍."

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FWIW, I think that the non-faction cards can all only give up to 3 points, so I vote option 1.  

Also, allowing the spending of caps could make the card worth up to 5 or more.  

I think the non faction cards are there to allow for people to have goals outside of the main storyline that they want to achieve.  

I agree that Managing it would only trigger if you have 3 drugs and well rested, so well rested and less than 3 drugs would only be worth one point.  

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On 12/13/2017 at 8:40 AM, MalcolmReynolds said:

 

Since FFG probably wont reply to any of these posts I am hoping to hear more replies on what others are doing. If more folks are doing it your way Hobbit then I would surely change to that until we get an official FAQ or reply from FFG. I am truly fine with playing it either way but this is a huge issue for us as someone only won last night because we allowed them to have +4 on the payday card.

 

 

Just so are aware, FFG will NEVER respond to rules questions here in the forums. These forums are for the community. If you want to get an official ruling from FFG, they very specifically have a place on this site to submit questions/clarifications regarding rules.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

 

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