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Norell

Help me love Star Wars again!

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First of all, I loved Star Wars long before Disney bought the franchise. I've read almost every EU book, lots of comics and I loved them. Even te Vong, the Caedus arc and to some extent the Abeloth arc. I'm not a mindless fanboy, I don't think everything was golden. There was always a Sith remnant wannabe, the Yevetha arc was pointless, I disliked the Killiks, and I really hated how Tenel Ka's own arc turned out. There were many boring books too like Secrets/Loves of the Jedi and others.

So I admit I watched TFA the first time with prejudice and that could be part of why I hate it so vehemently. So now that a new movie is released and it is reported to be really good, I decided to be open-minded, ignore the EU ever existed and rewatch the new stuff again. Some Rebels episodes, Rogue One and  finally TFA.

I think Rebels is watchable but not excellent. R1 was mediocre in writing and dull, full of uninteresting and unolmotivated characters. The rebels act like they wouldn't know what they signed up to, and the very ending (Leia being in  the battle herself) totally messed up the first 15 minutes of ANH (the diplomatic ship excuse? And why not just blow up the Tantive with the plans still on board?).

And TFA... Gosh this movie is still horrible! Finn's story makes no sense whatsoever, Rey using Force powers after 3 attempts, and Darth Whiner is... He is like the Holiday Special. Ridiculous and painful to watch at the same time. And the movie itself is still a ripoff of ANH with the only exception that everything is smaller (FO compared to the Empire, Resistance compared to the Rebel Alliance, Kylo compared to Vader, the struggle of some mediocre powers in the shadow of the Galactic Republic compared to an all-out Galactic Civil War etc.) but the same time wants to look bigger (bigger ships, meaner stormtroopers, bigger superweapon, more menacing supervillain etc.). And overall, it has poorly written dialogs, it's badly directed, the actors over- or underplay, and it even lacks memorable music! Seriously, in every John Willliams film there is at least one theme that is so memorable you will recognize it in an instant. TFA has none.

I cannot understand how can this movie can be rated higher than any other Star Wars movie. But people seem to love it so maybe it's me. I didn't like the Abramsverse Star Trek after all...

 

So please dear Armada Community! Convince me that TFA is good! I really love Star Wars and I want to enjoy what comes in the future but it seems thst I'm missing something. Please praise the movie for me and convince me to buy a ticket to the new one!

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I kind of agree with you that TFA wasn't great. However, I really liked rogue one. From what I have heard the new movie is supposed to be pretty good, so I would at least give it a shot. One good thing I can say about the new movies is that the visuals are pretty amazing. They almost feel like art films to me. Especially this new film with its red and white theme.

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You can like whatever you want to like (or not). We're not really here to fight with you or get you to do anything (although if it's Armada-related, we can certainly disagree vociferously, but this isn't that). TFA was okay. I think they went conservative and re-New-Hopey with it to prove they "got it" and that the series was in the hands of people who weren't going to give us another prequel trilogy*. I hope they'll be more original with the new movie and initial reviews have been very positive.

*Prequel memes are hilarious, though, so there's that.

2748c2f67a144327fb63ca43ab9cc61d.jpg

Edited by Snipafist

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I wholly disagree as to the Force Awakens lacking memorable music. I find myself humming Kylo Ren's trumpet theme and the Resistance March all the time along with the Imperial Suite from Rogue One (yeah yeah not Williams, whatever). Its subtle but it gets to you.

As for quality The Force Awakens is fantastic filmmaking, other then the fact they rehashed the Death Star (God they could've done anything else :angry:) and Rogue One was likewise superb. I don't know what to tell you with the Force Awakens, short of cutting out the death sta- I mean StarKiller base I actually don't know how you could get a better Star Wars movie. 

You miss the point of the First Order I think. They're supposed to be lame try hards attempting to be as great as the Empire in the same way these lame Neo-Nazis are trying to be as big as the actual Nazis. Kylo Ren is meant to be lame in the first movie. But I suspect that's all going to change in the Last Jedi. 

As for Rogue One I think it could've used more character development but the character's motivations were clearly there. Its very much in the vein of the WWII propaganda films from the fifties and sixties, where you meet a bunch of people get a little development and most of them die. If the space battle didn't grab you then i'm afraid nothing will.

I will never forget my father who was extremely skeptical and negative about R1 for months prior and going into the theatre came out blown away. 

~

I think many of the problems you have in the way you describe them seem to pertain more to your feelings rather then to the actual quality of the films. You may just not love Star Wars anymore or at least only now enjoy the parts you really loved.  

Now if you want to talk about bad new canon stuff check out the new Battlefront campaign or the Aftermath trilogy of books.  

Edited by Forresto

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54 minutes ago, Norell said:

So please dear Armada Community! Convince me that TFA is good! I really love Star Wars and I want to enjoy what comes in the future but it seems thst I'm missing something. Please praise the movie for me and convince me to buy a ticket to the new one!

Not to be rude, but... why? I mean, we're just random internet strangers on a site about a game involving plastic ships and pew pew dice. If you want to find out if you like the movie, go watch it. If you don't think you'll like it, wait for it to be released for home viewing. There are plenty of well written articles regarding TFA, new canon, etc. that will go into logical explanations and whatnot. Really it's all about how you feel about it though, and internet strangers will have a hard time impacting that.

One awesome thing is that all of your favorite things about Star Wars are still there. There's just some other stuff now that you like less. That's fine. I hope you do find joy in the new Star Wars. If not though, you can still come command fleets with us and try to overthrow the Empire.

Edited by Astrodar
Do or Do Not

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55 minutes ago, Forresto said:

You miss the point of the First Order I think. They're supposed to be lame try hards attempting to be as great as the Empire in the same way these lame Neo-Nazis are trying to be as big as the actual Nazis. Kylo Ren is meant to be lame in the first movie. But I suspect that's all going to change in the Last Jedi. 

As for Rogue One I think it could've used more character development but the character's motivations were clearly there. Its very much in the vein of the WWII propaganda films from the fifties and sixties, where you meet a bunch of people get a little development and most of them die. If the space battle didn't grab you then i'm afraid nothing will.

That kind of helps, thanks :) And you're right, Battle of Scarif was indeed awesome, short of the fact thst Leia was there.

@Green Knight I just want to clarify that it wasn't my intention. I really wanna see why people love TFA so much. For me, as a film it seems like it overall looks great, but in other aspects likr writing, acting, drama, etc. it is mediocre so I don't understand all the admiration it gets.

Edited by Norell

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26 minutes ago, Norell said:

That kind of helps, thanks :) And you're right, Battle of Scarif was indeed awesome, short of the fact thst Leia was there.

@Green Knight I just want to clarify that it wasn't my intention. I really wanna see why people love TFA so much. For me, as a film it seems like it overall looks great, but in other aspects likr writing, acting, drama, etc. it is mediocre so I don't understand all the admiration it gets.

I wouldn't say I love TFA, but I do quite like it.

I felt that it was very old skool STAR WARS, and that was perhaps the most important thing for me, after all the years of prequels and animated shows.

It was, unfortunately, not very original. If I pretend I've never seen the OT, it's not so bad: as a standalone the story is rather good IMO. Perhaps better than ANH - it's rather slow paced - but since ANH existed before, TFA feels like it copies too much. The Rathar (spelling ?) scene was meaningless, but other than that the pacing is very good IMO.

I for one really enjoyed the new hero characters: Rey, Finn, Kylo, BB, Poe... nothing to complain about there.

....bad guys a bit of a letdown tho. Ginger General is nice, but no Tarkin. Kylo might grow on us, but he's no Vader. And Snoke...what a lame *** act.

All in all it had some big shoes to fill, and I feel it managed that pretty well.

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Its very clear that TFA  is just not the movie for old Star Wars fans.  Its not meant to just continue the sage for "us" but also to bring in a new generation of viewers and fans. Just remember that there are a lot of people that never seen the "old" Star Wars movies. 

The best art will NEVER be the most commercial succesful, it will always just appeal to 10-20% of the market (which will really love it), while mediocore but okay art will appeal to 70-80% of the market just for the price that nobody will really love it. Thats the power of the mainstream.

TFA had great parts and it has some silly parts... and a lot of okay parts. And it was a large success for the studio.

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2 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Don't take it too seriously and you will love it again.

This is so true. When I first watched TFA I thought “this is awesome” then I thought about it, then I had all those shower thoughts and now, to me, the movie looks great but I can’t help but think “this is so stupid” in almost every scene with Rey, Kylo or Starkiller Base.

Edited by Jabby

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I thought The Force Awakens was a somewhat disappointing re hash of the film my mother took me to see in 1977. Rogue One was better but a bit PC, a Social Justice Warrior fest. I expect the new film will be better than both those.

What I do like about the films is that they bring in new ships to play with that are actually Star Wars compared to obsure ships that appeared once in a comic I have never heard of, a book I have never read or a computer game I have never played. I'm hoping we see some new fighters that will make X Wing worth playing again, as opposed to the Scumwing, power creep, FAQ longer than the rules, looks nice but not much connection to Star Wars monstrosity it has become. Fortunately Armada hasn't gone down that route. Long may it stay so!

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5 hours ago, Norell said:

I think Rebels is watchable but not excellent. R1 was mediocre in writing and dull, full of uninteresting and unolmotivated characters. The rebels act like they wouldn't know what they signed up to, and the very ending (Leia being in  the battle herself) totally messed up the first 15 minutes of ANH (the diplomatic ship excuse? And why not just blow up the Tantive with the plans still on board?).

I take the opposite review of Rogue One's ending. Vader's dismissal of Leia's claims of being on a diplomatic mission have more weight. He's like 'I JUST SAW YOU.' Also, I like what it does for Leia. How audacious do you have to be to try and CLAIM that?! Rogue One definitely has its flaws, but it appeals to me as a Soldier in ways that no other Star Wars does. It's the only Star Wars movie to make you feel the emotional impact of war.

5 hours ago, Norell said:

And TFA... Gosh this movie is still horrible! Finn's story makes no sense whatsoever, Rey using Force powers after 3 attempts, and Darth Whiner is... He is like the Holiday Special. Ridiculous and painful to watch at the same time. 

Sorry, but the characters is where the movie shines for me. Finn's story is a bit rushed, but I felt progressed in a logical fashion. Still, I can where you're coming from. Rushed circumstances is hardly new to Star Wars (Luke's Dagobah training, Luke hoping in a military fighter with no training, the millennium falcon traveling to another star system without a hyperdrive), so I didn't even think about it while watching.

5 hours ago, Norell said:

And the movie itself is still a ripoff of ANH with the only exception that everything is smaller (FO compared to the Empire, Resistance compared to the Rebel Alliance, Kylo compared to Vader, the struggle of some mediocre powers in the shadow of the Galactic Republic compared to an all-out Galactic Civil War etc.) but the same time wants to look bigger (bigger ships, meaner stormtroopers, bigger superweapon, more menacing supervillain etc.).

This is where I completely agree. TFA has not aged as well as I would have liked because it is so structurally similar to ANH. I think Honest Trailers nailed it when they dubbed it "A Familiar Hope." As for size, if you watch just the movie, there is no real escalation in size for the ships (Starkiller Base being he major exception). On screen, you get no concept that the Resurgent is supposed to be so much bigger than an ISD. That's the companion visual guides that I frankly just don't care about.

5 hours ago, Norell said:

And overall, it has poorly written dialogs, it's badly directed, the actors over- or underplay, and it even lacks memorable music! Seriously, in every John Willliams film there is at least one theme that is so memorable you will recognize it in an instant. TFA has none

This is where I just can't help you. Kasdan's influence is very keenly felt. It is easily the best dialogue since ESB. And how DARE you besmirch Williams (I'm being cheeky here, just in case that isn't reflecting well in text). I can think of 3 major themes that stick in my head. I honestly think it's his best complete score of the franchise. That's not to say anything of the other scores aren't amazing. Williams is just that good.

5 hours ago, Norell said:

I cannot understand how can this movie can be rated higher than any other Star Wars movie. But people seem to love it so maybe it's me. I didn't like the Abramsverse Star Trek after all...

Well that's easy: it's not rated better than any other Star Wars. It's #4 for me, and I rarely hear it ranked higher. ESB is still the crown Jewel of the franchise. Rogue One is my personal favorite, but I always acknowledge ESB is the better overall movie. There's also no way you can rank TFA higher than ANH. I agree with you on the Abrams Star Trek. It loved having Trek back initially, but it didn't age well.

In closing, relax. Johnson is NOT Abrams and the reviews indicate that TLJ is not ESB 2.0. I'm a little nervous about that myself, so we'll see.

Edited by Truthiness

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Think of the Force Awakens as the movie you'd expect was cultivated by focus groups.  It hits every note exactly how the person who hasn't watched them since the 90s remembers them.

Rogue One feels a lot more like it was developed specifically for the die hard fan who wanted that grittier Star Wars film without a bunch of Jedi.  I'll be totally honest.  I think the Jedi (post prequel universe) are the most boring and uninteresting part of Star Wars.

I like to call the new films "competent".  None of them are terrible, but they aren't exactly what I want out of them.  That's totally fine.  I enjoy them for what they are.  I think a lot of us are trying to make these into something much more than they are.

Seriously, enjoy the X-Wings blowing up TIE Fighters and cringe when Han Solo starts talking about Reptars on his space garbage truck.

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I will echo other sentiments and suggest compartmentalizing.

You don’t have to like all things Star Wars. Like what you like, ignore the rest. 

Like you, I read through the Legends EU. There were some great stories there. There was also a lot of crap. I treasure the good ones, but ignore the crappy ones.

Parts of the Prequel trilogy grate on my nerves like fingernails on a chalkboard. Still there were more than a few cool things to come from those movies, including a bunch of cool ship designs.

i wasn’t blown away by TFA either, but again there are still some cool things to come out of it. Maybe the last Jedi will expand on it enough to elevate it. Maybe The Last Jedi will be really good in its own right and you still won’t have to care about TFA. 

My suggestion is give it a chance. If you like it, you can add it to your head canon wall of fame. If not, throw it in the canon junk pile.   

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You don’t have to love it again. The original material you enjoyed will always be there, even the EU stuff you enjoyed. Just because it’s not cannon doesn’t mean it no longer exists. It will always be there for you to pick up and read again.

Eventually if something goes on long enough cracks will begin to show in it, just because of the amount of material. I just had a discussion with a friend of mine about if Firefly had’ve gotten other seasons, when would the caveat come into play of “I love Firefly, well... everything before season (number here) anyways.” As you’ve shown from even the EU: they can’t all be winners all the time.

And not all of it is meant for us. I used to substitute teach high schools and all those students love the prequels for various reasons. After talking with them about it, I imagine I felt like my grandfather did when his kids found A New Hope so enjoyable.

So it’s okay not to enjoy something that spans decades. I went back and watched TFA the other day, and minus the obvious gaps in Finn’s mentality the first third of that movie really feels like Star Wars. Right when the conversations begin at Maz’s is where it becomes painfully obvious they’re not going to tip their hand with regards to backstory, so they won’t be showing you anything you haven’t seen before.

BUT children haven’t seen it before on the big screen. That makes a difference to them to be “in it” like modern cinema can provide. Also, they have the memory of a goldfish now, so they only recall pieces of any of the other trilogies at this point.

So just get that while things like dialogue, acting, plot, and exposition may slacken in the coming years that the THEMES remain the same, and that’s what you bond the most over when it comes to Star Wars, no matter which decade of it is your preference.

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@Norellit seems that you're really trying too hard.  

I will tell you right now that the original trilogy was never as good as people think it was...

And the prequels were never as bad...

just enjoy it!  And if you don't, it doesn't matter!  Find another universe to love.

For me, it will always be the Star Wars.

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Judging by your list of complains it does sound like your enjoyment of Star Wars has been hampered by an unwillingness to let go of the past.

I don’t think I’m in a position to give you any advice that can improve your situation, simply because I don’t know you as a person, but I can share with you how I delt with the issue myself.

I learned to “Let go and enjoy the ride”.

Like many fans I was dissapointed that the EU got nuked. I mourned it but I was also excited at the promise of new films and the journey of discovering a new canon. I realised pretty quickly that if were to enjoy new Star Wars I had to let go of old Star Wars.

So I commited to unlearn what I had learned. “Going in to it with old baggage will leave me endlessly frustrated and that’s not worth hanging on to”, I told myself. Its worked so far for me so I guess I’m doing something right.

I do still miss some of the Legends stories and characters (X-Wing novels, Legends Wedge, Soontir Fel, Mara Jade, etc) but I never let that get in the way of enjoying what the new canon has to offer.

Edited by Wraithdt

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It has Han Solo and that Wookie in it, how can it be bad?

 

On a more serious note, I like TFA but not all of it. The Death Star mkIII / A New Hope remake plotline was disappointing (especially that cringeworthy scene where the rebel generals go 'it's another death star' 'no, this was the death star' and they show this tiny dot compared to the new super large starkiller base). The movie is in luck that the 3 previous movies were so crappy, so this one looks exceptional by comparison: it takes all the good aspects of the original movies and nothing from the prequels.

Edited by Lord Tareq

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Before I get started I know you and I have debated this before, I only hope to help you see TFA from a perspective that will help you enjoy it. 

1.) 1st and foremost, take a pointer from Yoda, unlearn what you have learned. Also, let go of your hate, you'll never enjoy it if you can't view it with fresh perspective. The old EU is gone. No amount of holding out will save it, and not all of it may be a grand as you remember. I found that once I stepped away from the EU and looked at the characters and plot points objectively, they seemed a little trite. Most of the EU, short of Zahn and Stackpole and a few others was just fanservice made to cash in on the vacuum from the lack of movies.

2.) See the movie for what it is. Again, once you step back from your emotional attachment to the series TFA starts to make more sense. Many people have blamed it for being too similar to the original, and many believe this was done as a heavy handed cash in on nostalgia. Try not to see it in such a cynical way. Instead look at it from a marketing viewpoint of maximizing an audience for 3 movies. They weren't cashing in on TFA, they were world building something familiar to draw in older fans, while introducing the new elements of the franchise. They built the story to have similarities with purpose, not dollar signs in their eyes.  The message? Without taking great care history can repeat itself. 

 

7 hours ago, Norell said:

Finn's story makes no sense whatsoever

I think Finn's story makes lot's of sense. The FO kidnaps storm troopers as children, taken from parents they literally never knew. As programmed as they are to obey the FO, they're still human. I think that's the point Finn's character makes best. That underneath all the training and programming was a person who just DIDN'T want to hurt people for no reason. 

 

7 hours ago, Norell said:

Rey using Force powers after 3 attempts

I'm surprised that someone who has invested so much in the EU sees this as an issue. The EU has made it clear that powerful forceusers can often tap into powerful techniques without any formal training. We know that Rey is powerful. Not just from the actions of TFA but also from the trailers of TLJ. What we have to consider is this, if she isn't Luke's kid, as many presumed, just how powerful is she? Kylo is a Skywalker in lineage, and he has had formal training, yet her raw connection to the force seems much stronger than his. She was able to overpower Kylo with just her raw instincts. 

A good way to look at Rey is through the same eyes of the reader of the Darth Bane books. No spoilers, but several times during his career, long before becoming Sith, or receiving training,  he was able to do things far beyond his skill level. Even during his training, he was able to beat his opponents at the academy, not through the physical training he'd received, but by merely opening himself to the influence of the force. Keep in mind that the force has a will of it's own, and that it can influence your actions if you're open to it. Rey, in my opinion, makes plenty of sense. She is a force sensitive with a connection to the force more powerful than the Jedi have seen in millennia. 

 

 

8 hours ago, Norell said:

And the movie itself is still a ripoff of ANH with the only exception that everything is smaller (FO compared to the Empire, Resistance compared to the Rebel Alliance, Kylo compared to Vader, the struggle of some mediocre powers in the shadow of the Galactic Republic compared to an all-out Galactic Civil War etc.) but the same time wants to look bigger (bigger ships, meaner stormtroopers, bigger superweapon, more menacing supervillain etc.)

Again go back to the first two points then consider this point. You made the comparison of the Empire to FO and the resistance to the Alliance, they didn't do that for you. People see them as the same, yet the FO and resistance are much different from their predecessors. The FO isn't in the business of galactic control (yet). The Empire had the old republic as a foundation to build upon, which allowed for a more subtle bad guy. They could hide galactic domination behind the guise of security. The FO is not subtle, they cannot afford to be. They've stayed hidden, yes, and waited until the right time to strike, but then they hit hard. (And won, which is something the Empire can't brag). TLJ ship designs show that the FO isn't held back by the restrictions of pretending to be the good guy. They're out to dominate. As for the resistance, it's not like the alliance. Especially after the events of TFA.... they don't have the funding the old rebels had, and therefore will require even more cunning to win. 

As for Vader to Kylo references, I feel like this is one EVERYONE misread. Kylo isn't like Vader. He's like Luke. A darkside Luke. He's young, mostly untrained, he wants to fill Anakin's shoes (Just like Luke, except for the times as Vader). He's whiney, has power and skill but lacks control. Kylo Ren is the darkside version of Luke in this series. He's not the established BA villain Vader was. 
 

8 hours ago, Norell said:

And overall, it has poorly written dialogs, it's badly directed, the actors over- or underplay, and it even lacks memorable music! Seriously, in every John Willliams film there is at least one theme that is so memorable you will recognize it in an instant. TFA has none

I didn't find the dialogue or acting any worse than any of the previous movies, I think this may just be the negative bias manifesting lol As for the score, I gotta disagree, Kylo's theme gives me goosebumps. I love it. 

 

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Echoing above: Vader's face reveal was teased in Empire, then saved for the end of Return. Meanwhile Ren's face was revealed midway through the first movie and was the exact opposite of Vader's; young, handsome, and whole.

If you assume that the people making the film know, in general terms, how to do their job right, a picture emerges of a bratty copy-cat who tries to live up to Vaders legacy, whilst misunderstanding that legacy from the start.

Edited by codegnave

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I follow you on this one, TFA was only a reheat ANH.

Why??? Money... and alot of money.

I was expecting a real follow of the OT (just like the trilogy of Timothy Zahn), but Disney Just tought  there will be more incomes this way.

I do not approve this but SW Is way bigger than is fan base. They know (Disney) that we (the fans), will continue with them even if we are unhappy with the turn they took. The proof with this is, I don't really like the prequel Trilogy (Clones Wars) but I have it at home and look it some times. But really less than the OT because for each game of Armada, I put one of the 3 OT movie in background or RO. :)

So my hope for TLJ is that we will see something new and not only a ESB reheat. Cross your finger and find it Friday!

May the Force be with us (and have a real new movie) ;)

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