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11 hours ago, Gadgetron said:

They do cover the fall of the Empire pretty well actually.  Newcanon has no solid fleet numbers, though they do have large quantities of ISDs falling to sabotage/special forces/snub fighter trench run tactics, as well as general officer corp incompetence (you don't often get promoted in the imperial navy for skill, Thrawn, Sloane, and Veers are the exception, not the rule.)

Once the Emperor is dead, it's mentioned that many of the fleets/ships break away and become their own warlords and maintain protection of their own personal planets.  The ships at Jakku, were just those still loyal to the Emperors ideals, most (or at least a lot, I have no numbers) of the imperial navy had deserted, and a lot had previously been deployed to the unknown regions.

Part of what disappoints me with newcanon is their unwillingness to use those solid numbers. It speaks to me of intellectual laziness;  even ballpark figures like 'over a thousand ISDs' would be fine, but speaking only in non-descript sweeping generalizations as they do now is pretty lame. I've been trying to get through the Aftermath trilogy but I've been disappointed so far (nearing the end of the first book, 4th try at reading it). We are left with no solid picture as to what the Imperial remnant really consisted of. Did they control most of the remaining Imperial space and fleet by the time of the battle of Jakku? Did they control merely a tiny portion of the former Empire? So if many fleets, ships, and sectors formed their own mini-factions, did they just get rolled up by the New Republic, did they sign peace treaties, what is going on in fact?

Part of this frustration comes from my own particular avenue of interest in Star Wars. Even when I was a little kid I was more interested in the big space battles and politics. Today I find it by far the most compelling aspect of the universe (hence, Armada) and recent tendency to avoid the nuts and bolts of the universe is really undermining it for me. While the prequels had their flaws, I commend Lucas for having a lot more gumption in this regard than those who have followed in his footsteps. I think the execs in charge now are scared of nuts and bolts and just want to keep the Star Wars universe mystical and about the heroes. If some of the new info is to be believed the Resistance has just 4 (FOUR!) capital ships at their disposal. For a galaxy with trillions of beings living on millions of planets. 4 ships. It is just stupid. This is how I feel about the scale of the Battle of Jakku. Stupid.

Edited by TheBigLev

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6 hours ago, Norell said:

But if an X-Wing loses one of its wings it can't result in critical decompression. Plus it wouldn't cost lives.

how many 3 winged X-wings have you seen flying around?

also what are blast doors and why are those manned sections?

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3 hours ago, TheBigLev said:

Part of what disappoints me with newcanon is their unwillingness to use those solid numbers. It speaks to me of intellectual laziness;  even ballpark figures like 'over a thousand ISDs' would be fine, but speaking only in non-descript sweeping generalizations as they do now is pretty lame. I've been trying to get through the Aftermath trilogy but I've been disappointed so far (nearing the end of the first book, 4th try at reading it). We are left with no solid picture as to what the Imperial remnant really consisted of. Did they control most of the remaining Imperial space and fleet by the time of the battle of Jakku? Did they control merely a tiny portion of the former Empire? So if many fleets, ships, and sectors formed their own mini-factions, did they just get rolled up by the New Republic, did they sign peace treaties, what is going on in fact?

Part of this frustration comes from my own particular avenue of interest in Star Wars. Even when I was a little kid I was more interested in the big space battles and politics. Today I find it by far the most compelling aspect of the universe (hence, Armada) and recent tendency to avoid the nuts and bolts of the universe is really undermining it for me. While the prequels had their flaws, I commend Lucas for having a lot more gumption in this regard than those who have followed in his footsteps. I think the execs in charge now are scared of nuts and bolts and just want to keep the Star Wars universe mystical and about the heroes. If some of the new info is to be believed the Resistance has just 4 (FOUR!) capital ships at their disposal. For a galaxy with trillions of beings living on millions of planets. 4 ships. It is just stupid. This is how I feel about the scale of the Battle of Jakku. Stupid.

I myself have gotten to about halfway through the last book, mostly due to a combination of forcing myself to read and a lack of anything else to read and i have found it to be rather boring especially when compared to the old EU.

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3 hours ago, TheBigLev said:

Part of what disappoints me with newcanon is their unwillingness to use those solid numbers. It speaks to me of intellectual laziness;  even ballpark figures like 'over a thousand ISDs' would be fine, but speaking only in non-descript sweeping generalizations as they do now is pretty lame. I've been trying to get through the Aftermath trilogy but I've been disappointed so far (nearing the end of the first book, 4th try at reading it). We are left with no solid picture as to what the Imperial remnant really consisted of. Did they control most of the remaining Imperial space and fleet by the time of the battle of Jakku? Did they control merely a tiny portion of the former Empire? So if many fleets, ships, and sectors formed their own mini-factions, did they just get rolled up by the New Republic, did they sign peace treaties, what is going on in fact?

Part of this frustration comes from my own particular avenue of interest in Star Wars. Even when I was a little kid I was more interested in the big space battles and politics. Today I find it by far the most compelling aspect of the universe (hence, Armada) and recent tendency to avoid the nuts and bolts of the universe is really undermining it for me. While the prequels had their flaws, I commend Lucas for having a lot more gumption in this regard than those who have followed in his footsteps. I think the execs in charge now are scared of nuts and bolts and just want to keep the Star Wars universe mystical and about the heroes. If some of the new info is to be believed the Resistance has just 4 (FOUR!) capital ships at their disposal. For a galaxy with trillions of beings living on millions of planets. 4 ships. It is just stupid. This is how I feel about the scale of the Battle of Jakku. Stupid.

I'm with you on this.

And people can say what they want about Lucas near the end of his run with Star Wars, but given that the next project he wanted to do was essentially politics and the political families on Coruscant (it was compared to A Song of Ice and Fire, but iiiiiin spaaaaace) I'm actually disappointed he left before starting said project.

The expectations for fleshing out the politics of Star Wars certainly would be higher than they are now.

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On 12/7/2017 at 6:51 PM, Vergilius said:

Also, I assume he meant to write debemus naves feminas vocare, "we ought to call the ships women."   Debemus naves feminae vocare looks awkward at best, though you could force it to mean something like "we women ought to summon the ships."  I'm just not sure why he'd say that in this thread.  :)   But then composing in Latin is extremely hard and even the best of us miss a noun case here or there.

Whoops, missed an accusative :) 

Good explanation!

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11 hours ago, Geressen said:

also what are blast doors and why are those manned sections?

The sci-fi equivalent of water tight doors in ships now days.

 

Additionally if the BF2 TLJ season 1 trailer is to be believed, the Resistance has a lot more than four ships.  They show at least three of the Ninka Corellian ships heading towards the what looks like the Raddus.

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From what I read and believe those are just the ships in that area able to respond to that particular threat within the time frame, if you reread the first 15 words of the republic fleet page in the spoiler tab you can see where that thinking comes from.

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14 hours ago, TheBigLev said:

Part of what disappoints me with newcanon is their unwillingness to use those solid numbers. It speaks to me of intellectual laziness;  even ballpark figures like 'over a thousand ISDs' would be fine, but speaking only in non-descript sweeping generalizations as they do now is pretty lame. I've been trying to get through the Aftermath trilogy but I've been disappointed so far (nearing the end of the first book, 4th try at reading it). We are left with no solid picture as to what the Imperial remnant really consisted of. Did they control most of the remaining Imperial space and fleet by the time of the battle of Jakku? Did they control merely a tiny portion of the former Empire? So if many fleets, ships, and sectors formed their own mini-factions, did they just get rolled up by the New Republic, did they sign peace treaties, what is going on in fact?

Part of this frustration comes from my own particular avenue of interest in Star Wars. Even when I was a little kid I was more interested in the big space battles and politics. Today I find it by far the most compelling aspect of the universe (hence, Armada) and recent tendency to avoid the nuts and bolts of the universe is really undermining it for me. While the prequels had their flaws, I commend Lucas for having a lot more gumption in this regard than those who have followed in his footsteps. I think the execs in charge now are scared of nuts and bolts and just want to keep the Star Wars universe mystical and about the heroes. If some of the new info is to be believed the Resistance has just 4 (FOUR!) capital ships at their disposal. For a galaxy with trillions of beings living on millions of planets. 4 ships. It is just stupid. This is how I feel about the scale of the Battle of Jakku. Stupid.

How'd the New Order build fleets of mega-death ships, oh and also a PLANET SIZED DEATH CANNON without anyone noticing?

Where the old Empire got the capital and resources to build TWO death stars is one thing.  How a fringe militant group managed to turn an entire planet into a battlestation that blows up other planets is silly enough.

And as soon as it started "eating" the local star.... its orbit was gonna change wildly.

 

 

Anyway to sum up, Star Wars has never really made sense.  Best not to think about it lmao

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8 hours ago, duck_bird said:

How'd the New Order build fleets of mega-death ships, oh and also a PLANET SIZED DEATH CANNON without anyone noticing?

Where the old Empire got the capital and resources to build TWO death stars is one thing.  How a fringe militant group managed to turn an entire planet into a battlestation that blows up other planets is silly enough.

And as soon as it started "eating" the local star.... its orbit was gonna change wildly.

 

 

Anyway to sum up, Star Wars has never really made sense.  Best not to think about it lmao

From what I gather, Starkiller Base was commenced by the Empire, and only completed by the First Order. Furthermore, as planets go, it's tiny. Like spherical asteroid tiny, IIRC.

They also were funded by Senators in the NR, and probably from people within the Imperial Remnant, too. They are located in the Unknown Regions, based on a ship. I don't see it as any surprise that they weren't really discovered.

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11 hours ago, duck_bird said:

And as soon as it started "eating" the local star.... its orbit was gonna change wildly.

 

Forget about its orbit, how do you store a star in a planet? And wouldn’t that mean the planet blows up when it fires? Should they all freeze up when the sun goes? And how could they see the Hosnian system get destroyed from Takodana? You know speed of light and all that, they shouldn’t be seeing it for thousands of years! I mean, in the Star Wars comics Leia talks about how she can still see Alderaan even though its gone.

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12 hours ago, duck_bird said:

How'd the New Order build fleets of mega-death ships, oh and also a PLANET SIZED DEATH CANNON without anyone noticing?

Where the old Empire got the capital and resources to build TWO death stars is one thing.  How a fringe militant group managed to turn an entire planet into a battlestation that blows up other planets is silly enough.

There are answers to your questions if you care enough to look for them. Here are some of them for your convenience:-

1) It's a big galaxy

2) Starkiller Base and the First Order is based in the Unknown Regions, a part of the galaxy that is largely unexplored due to absence of existing hyperspace lanes and the presence of gravitational anomalies that make space travel difficult and dangerous. Therefore they were able to remain hidden from the New Republic and the larger galaxy for a long time.

3) The New Republic did not pursue or investigate the Unknown Regions because of the aforementioned dangers and for the most part did not consider the First Order a threat. This false sense of security was fueled by misinformation spread by FO agents in New Republic space and FO sympathizers within the senate.

4) The FO is partially funded by sympathetic politicians in the New Republic. Their other source of revenue are by strip-mining and extracting resources from planets in the Unknown Regions and Wild Space. They do not have to maintain any civilian infrastructure and population, so any resource they gain goes straight into their military. The other source of revenue for the FO could be Snoke himself but detailed information on that remains sketchy.

5) The FO is able to achieve all this largely because of the efforts of the Empire. The old Empire devoted resources to the exploration and mapping of the Unknown Regions due to Palpatine's particular interest in that area of space. Thrawn was instrumental in the success of his pet project and as a result the Imperial Remnant that escaped after the Battle of Jakku had all the information they needed to safely navigate the Unknown Regions. They also would've known which planet had the resources they need to rebuild their war machine. One of that planet became Starkiller base as it was rich with Kyber Crystals, a prime ingredient for the super weapon.

6) All that being said if the Empire could hide 2 Death Stars in known Imperial space for decades, it is no stretch at all to believe that the First Order and Starkiller Base was able to remain hidden in the Unknown Regions for a long time and from New Republic scrutiny (or lack thereof) until it was too late.

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I really like all the resistance ships. I like the rag-tag look of them. It is kind of weird that they felt the need to make the Raddus so huge but it is not a big deal.

 

As far as the First order, I like the Finalizer, she is a good natural progression from the ISD, The Supremacy makes perfect sense as the space born capital of a space born Empire, Being so large makes perfect sense and she looks beautiful The only thing I don't like is that it is called a "Mega class". Why not just call her a Supremacy class? As others have pointed out Mega class is pretty juvenile. The Fulminatrix.... I don't know what to say, this ship looks dumb, she does not match the sleek and clean aesthetic of the other two and looks completely out of place.

 

 

Edited by Swusn

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On December 8, 2017 at 7:16 PM, Gadgetron said:

They do cover the fall of the Empire pretty well actually.  Newcanon has no solid fleet numbers, though they do have large quantities of ISDs falling to sabotage/special forces/snub fighter trench run tactics, as well as general officer corp incompetence (you don't often get promoted in the imperial navy for skill, Thrawn, Sloane, and Veers are the exception, not the rule.)

Once the Emperor is dead, it's mentioned that many of the fleets/ships break away and become their own warlords and maintain protection of their own personal planets.  The ships at Jakku, were just those still loyal to the Emperors ideals, most (or at least a lot, I have no numbers) of the imperial navy had deserted, and a lot had previously been deployed to the unknown regions.

Entirely disagree. The concept is fantastic but the product we have feels rushed and under developed, as if the story group wanted to just get it over with and move on sort've like with what's happening with Rebels. 

The Empire had 25,000 Star Destroyers  which is only a fraction of the entire Imperial Navy when you include the swathes of Gozantis, Arquitens, Quasar carriers, Raiders, and whatever else the Empire had. Why does the Empire only have thirty ISDs and an SSD at Jakku when the entire point of the battle is the remaining loyalists are all brought together for a final battle? Its so underwhelming and anti climatic. At this point the Imperials are no longer holding territory, they're fighting an all or nothing battle with the New Republic. 

In my opinion Jakku should have been made the turning point in the war where the Empire started to decline. Those moffs and imperial leaders not invited to the Unknown regions splinter apart and fight each other until defeat is inevitable and the remaining Empire makes peace with the New Republic a year or preferably a few years later after Jakku. 

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Just now, Forresto said:

Empire only have thirty ISDs and an SSD at Jakku when the entire point of the battle is the remaining loyalists are all brought together for a final battle?

Yeah, but that's only the ones that were under Rax's command and saw him as the new highest commanding person. There are many ships that were destroyed, many were still on far planets wiithout knowing the Emperor died (Kashyyk for example) or people who went rogue and became warlords, people who just ran, and ships got stolen (AN ENTIRE SSD) and many many more were sent to the unknown regions, like the Eclipse...

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11 minutes ago, Visovics said:

Yeah, but that's only the ones that were under Rax's command and saw him as the new highest commanding person. There are many ships that were destroyed, many were still on far planets wiithout knowing the Emperor died (Kashyyk for example) or people who went rogue and became warlords, people who just ran, and ships got stolen (AN ENTIRE SSD) and many many more were sent to the unknown regions, like the Eclipse...

If that's the case then the Empire wouldn't have simply stopped fighting after Jakku as you said there would be all these offs and admirals who would control a dangerous amount of vessels and personnel. Then Rax's campaign is not any different then Warlord Zsinj, or Thrawn, or the Pentastar Alignment and would leave it open to other warlords to conduct their own campaigns.

Even so there would be no Galactic Concordance as there would be no one Imperial Command to ensure all those many groups didnt wage war on the New Republic. 

However Jakku's entire purpose in the story is to end the Galactic Civil War which meant the majority of Imperials recognized not only the result of the battle but the legitimacy of Rax's defeat. This implies they were more unified then suggested. If thats the case the Battle of Jakku should have been larger then its portrayed. Its simply a difference of an author writing three dozen or three hundred on a page, and that's what irks me about the Aftermath trilogy. 

As I said I love the concept of the end of the Empire in the new canon, Its just the numbers are low balled and the timeline is far too short especially if a primary argument for everything is the galaxy is so large the empire loses because its simply too spread out. Even if they were getting there butts kicked it would take a few years for the New Republic to finally win. The Western Roman Empire took a long time to fall, the Empire should at least be given two or three years post endor.   

Edited by Forresto

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3 hours ago, Wraithdt said:

There are answers to your questions if you care enough to look for them. Here are some of them for your convenience:-

1) It's a big galaxy

2) Starkiller Base and the First Order is based in the Unknown Regions, a part of the galaxy that is largely unexplored due to absence of existing hyperspace lanes and the presence of gravitational anomalies that make space travel difficult and dangerous. Therefore they were able to remain hidden from the New Republic and the larger galaxy for a long time.

3) The New Republic did not pursue or investigate the Unknown Regions because of the aforementioned dangers and for the most part did not consider the First Order a threat. This false sense of security was fueled by misinformation spread by FO agents in New Republic space and FO sympathizers within the senate.

4) The FO is partially funded by sympathetic politicians in the New Republic. Their other source of revenue are by strip-mining and extracting resources from planets in the Unknown Regions and Wild Space. They do not have to maintain any civilian infrastructure and population, so any resource they gain goes straight into their military. The other source of revenue for the FO could be Snoke himself but detailed information on that remains sketchy.

5) The FO is able to achieve all this largely because of the efforts of the Empire. The old Empire devoted resources to the exploration and mapping of the Unknown Regions due to Palpatine's particular interest in that area of space. Thrawn was instrumental in the success of his pet project and as a result the Imperial Remnant that escaped after the Battle of Jakku had all the information they needed to safely navigate the Unknown Regions. They also would've known which planet had the resources they need to rebuild their war machine. One of that planet became Starkiller base as it was rich with Kyber Crystals, a prime ingredient for the super weapon.

6) All that being said if the Empire could hide 2 Death Stars in known Imperial space for decades, it is no stretch at all to believe that the First Order and Starkiller Base was able to remain hidden in the Unknown Regions for a long time and from New Republic scrutiny (or lack thereof) until it was too late.

You know it's all like the colonization. Clearly even the Unknown Regions are inhabited (by Chiss for instance), but nobody there is strong enough to be of any galactic relevance otherwise they would be known. It's like the Incas. Sure they had some shiny metals, but they couldn't control the whole South America because the lack of other resources. Therefor they were not globally relevant.

What I want to say is that certainly the Unknown Regions lack proper resources to build such a world-conquering force, both in raw materials and especially in workforce. If you think about it, even KDY took centuries to build up enough to be able to produce ISDs. Or that building the Death Star made several sectors go bankrupt. Sure the FO could hide a Starkiller base or that ridiculous mothership of Snoke's, they just couldn't have the resources, raw materials, workforce or infrastructure to build any of those. If they would have any of those, they couldn't have been perfectly hidden form the whole galaxy. The existence of the Death Star also leaked and it was the closest secret of a galaxy-wide absolutist empire with a military that worked as police as well. If they couldn't stop information to leak out about the death Star, how could a semi-underground - dare I say ragtag - organization both have the resources to build a superweapon even bigger and stronger, plus a star destroyer five times as big (or so) as the Executor and keep it totally hidden from EVERYONE in the galaxy?

The Unknown Regions doesn't mean a hermetically sealed area of space, it's like renaissance-age China. Europeans knew about its existence and that stuff happen there but didn't know anything exact about it. But that doesn't mean there wasn't for example trade between China and Europe.

The very basic concept of the FO doesn't make sense in the first place.

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1 minute ago, Norell said:

You know it's all like the colonization. Clearly even the Unknown Regions are inhabited (by Chiss for instance), but nobody there is strong enough to be of any galactic relevance otherwise they would be known. It's like the Incas. Sure they had some shiny metals, but they couldn't control the whole South America because the lack of other resources. Therefor they were not globally relevant.

What I want to say is that certainly the Unknown Regions lack proper resources to build such a world-conquering force, both in raw materials and especially in workforce. If you think about it, even KDY took centuries to build up enough to be able to produce ISDs. Or that building the Death Star made several sectors go bankrupt. Sure the FO could hide a Starkiller base or that ridiculous mothership of Snoke's, they just couldn't have the resources, raw materials, workforce or infrastructure to build any of those. If they would have any of those, they couldn't have been perfectly hidden form the whole galaxy. The existence of the Death Star also leaked and it was the closest secret of a galaxy-wide absolutist empire with a military that worked as police as well. If they couldn't stop information to leak out about the death Star, how could a semi-underground - dare I say ragtag - organization both have the resources to build a superweapon even bigger and stronger, plus a star destroyer five times as big (or so) as the Executor and keep it totally hidden from EVERYONE in the galaxy?

The Unknown Regions doesn't mean a hermetically sealed area of space, it's like renaissance-age China. Europeans knew about its existence and that stuff happen there but didn't know anything exact about it. But that doesn't mean there wasn't for example trade between China and Europe.

The very basic concept of the FO doesn't make sense in the first place.

I'd always thought that the unknow regions were largely unexplored because it was dangerous to navigate there and mostly every ship was destroyed, and then due to Thrawn's knowledge of it and hyperlanes, the Empire was able to send stuff there. Also the FO is not built from nothing, they had some of the Imperial forces there that had been previously sent by Palpatine, and also, they had 30 years to finish Starkiller Base and make those huge ships, and we don't know about Snoke, and what he brings to the table. Is he from one of the planets there? Because he is after all supreme leader, so he can't just be a someone that showed up to the FO. Did he have a planet full of resources to be extracted? More than one planet? Did they profit of Starkiller base's construction of that massive trench for the cannon to get resources for ships?

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3 hours ago, Visovics said:

It's literally the flattest of them, I don't know where you don't see the sleek or cleanness of it compared to the other ones

It is a **** of a lot more greebely (sp?). Sleek isn't about being flat, it is about being smooth and flowing. 

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23 minutes ago, Swusn said:

It is a **** of a lot more greebely (sp?). Sleek isn't about being flat, it is about being smooth and flowing. 

I know, but it still looks pretty smooth and flowing to me

49_EF6_CFB-25_B2-4_C2_D-_BA79-83_C904442

I see nothing wrong with it, or anywhere the design is rough or forced.

Edited by Visovics

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4 hours ago, Norell said:

You know it's all like the colonization. Clearly even the Unknown Regions are inhabited (by Chiss for instance), but nobody there is strong enough to be of any galactic relevance otherwise they would be known. It's like the Incas. Sure they had some shiny metals, but they couldn't control the whole South America because the lack of other resources. Therefor they were not globally relevant.

What I want to say is that certainly the Unknown Regions lack proper resources to build such a world-conquering force, both in raw materials and especially in workforce. If you think about it, even KDY took centuries to build up enough to be able to produce ISDs. Or that building the Death Star made several sectors go bankrupt. Sure the FO could hide a Starkiller base or that ridiculous mothership of Snoke's, they just couldn't have the resources, raw materials, workforce or infrastructure to build any of those. If they would have any of those, they couldn't have been perfectly hidden form the whole galaxy. The existence of the Death Star also leaked and it was the closest secret of a galaxy-wide absolutist empire with a military that worked as police as well. If they couldn't stop information to leak out about the death Star, how could a semi-underground - dare I say ragtag - organization both have the resources to build a superweapon even bigger and stronger, plus a star destroyer five times as big (or so) as the Executor and keep it totally hidden from EVERYONE in the galaxy?

The Unknown Regions doesn't mean a hermetically sealed area of space, it's like renaissance-age China. Europeans knew about its existence and that stuff happen there but didn't know anything exact about it. But that doesn't mean there wasn't for example trade between China and Europe.

The very basic concept of the FO doesn't make sense in the first place.

I couldn’t disagree with this more strongly.  The unknown regions are unexplored lol.  Literally, the new republican doesn’t know what’s out there.  It’s good to know that you have so much knowledge of a fictional universe, especially an area that really hasn’t been explored in the movies or books yet.  

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15 hours ago, Forresto said:

 The Empire had 25,000 Star Destroyers  which is only a fraction of the entire Imperial Navy when you include the swathes of Gozantis, Arquitens, Quasar carriers, Raiders, and whatever else the Empire had. 

Source for fleet numbers?

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