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Who is Doji Hotaru's husband?

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2 hours ago, KerenRhys said:

If I remember right, Bain was one of the 2 Maidens of the Spear (with Chiad) that were Faile's friends. Perrin's friend should be Gaul.

That is more in line with what I recalled just couldn't recall Gaul's name and didn't have the time to look it up.

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1 hour ago, Schmoozies said:

Its not overcompensation when its true.  In O5R when Yoritomo finally made it to the celestial court the others were so intimidated by his presences that they tried to change the rules so only those native to Heaven would have a place (read the Kami) and the the Thunder Dragon respected how cool Yoritomo was that she said "No way he can have my place I'll go chill with his peeps in Rokugan for a while."  Heck last O5R Gencon prize was the haters hating on him since he was taking so much of the attention from their precious Kami that they threw everything they could at players to get him torn from the Heavens (and in true Mantis mercenary faction we took their money, did the job and waited for Da MAn to come back to Earth so he could get back to the kicking of much *** - and you can't convince me that wasn't  what was going to happen in the end).

I always get the feeling, from what I read from different people, that the end of o5r was just about Yoritomo-locked-Mantis and Daigotsu-chan-is-da-best. With some guest starring by the rest.:P

In any case, o5r sounds like current Yoritomo's ambitious-wet dream.

And for all we know, Yoritomo's scar may be Hotaru's husband doing. A Yoritomo that in this reality doesn't use headgear.

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She hesitated at a stray thought—of her husband, now on his way to Shizuka Toshi to learn what he could about a recent attack by pirates and about the man, Yoritomo, who led them.

This is the only mention to her husband in all the new fiction, IIRC. 

Now, Shizuka Toshi, if in the same place as the old lore, is north of Kyuden Doji, in Osari Mori, and certainly not near the cost. I doubt Yoritomo would attack so far inland.

So he’s going to the Crane Courtier Dojo, which, BTW, rarely admits visitors from outside the clan, to gather information about the Mantis and Yoritomo?

Why? Well, seems to me that he’s looking for information amongst old friends/mentors/fellow courtiers, meaning he studied there, so I’d say that he is a Crane Courtier, most probably a Doji. 

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3 minutes ago, Wintersong said:

I always get the feeling, from what I read from different people, that the end of o5r was just about Yoritomo-locked-Mantis and Daigotsu-chan-is-da-best. With some guest starring by the rest.:P

In any case, o5r sounds like current Yoritomo's ambitious-wet dream.

And for all we know, Yoritomo's scar may be Hotaru's husband doing. A Yoritomo that in this reality doesn't use headgear.

More the fans, Yoritomo and Daigotsu drew a lot of hate because the other clans were jealous their leaders didn't get as much cool story time as they did.  Daigotsu got a bit of a reputation for being a Mary Sue type character who nothing could go wrong for, Yoritomo a little less so as most of his big story beats were when other similar characters were getting the same treatment.  The main difference was that the loyalists really rallied behind these characters since the rest of the fan base seemed to take offence to their very existence.  Yoritomo's ascension was actually part of a long term story event and was driven by player performance and fan club voting (race to the throne).  But again it drew a lot of anger from the haters who felt it lessened their special snowflake status as having a great clan founder (ignoring that Yoritomo can trace his bloodline directly to Osano-Wo and thus Hida himself). 

As to his scar maybe, but old cannon had him getting it as child when his family was murdered and he and his "father" were the only survivors.  Fun fact turns out his father actually died in the attack as well and was replaced by a Rakshasa assassin who took pity on the child (because you know that stuff happens all the time) who revealed the truth to Yoritomo after his Gempuku when it committed suicide and Yoritomo took over control of the clan.

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2 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

More the fans, Yoritomo and Daigotsu drew a lot of hate because the other clans were jealous their leaders didn't get as much cool story time as they did.

More that the Mantis, Spider, and, to a very great extent, the Dragon, were so reliant upon the guys who'd been in charge when they debuted (having failed to develop much character independent of their weird little cults of personality) are so hung up on their poster boys that they feel "incomplete" without them in a way other clans do not- because where the starting seven have their Kami (and other foundational figures) underpinning their dientity as figures in their distant past, the Mantis and Spider basically had to work out their foundational identities while we were there, watching. The Dragon... well. That's a very touchy, very contentious bit of O5R history, but suffice to say, having Togashi-kami physically present and perpetually retconned into weirder and weirder contortions did nobody any favors.

I mean, for a while there, we had Tsukune becoming a literal deity, her son Aikune traipsing about with a sentient nuke for a sword, Togashi Satsu could shapeshift into an actual dragon form, Yakamo and Hitomi became the new Sun and Moon... ridiculousness was very much the order of the day under certain writing regimes, regardless of which clan you supported.  Frankly, Yoritomo was sorta late to the "ascend to divinity" party.

 

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9 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

More that the Mantis, Spider, and, to a very great extent, the Dragon, were so reliant upon the guys who'd been in charge when they debuted (having failed to develop much character independent of their weird little cults of personality) are so hung up on their poster boys that they feel "incomplete" without them in a way other clans do not- because where the starting seven have their Kami (and other foundational figures) underpinning their dientity as figures in their distant past, the Mantis and Spider basically had to work out their foundational identities while we were there, watching. The Dragon... well. That's a very touchy, very contentious bit of O5R history, but suffice to say, having Togashi-kami physically present and perpetually retconned into weirder and weirder contortions did nobody any favors.

I mean, for a while there, we had Tsukune becoming a literal deity, her son Aikune traipsing about with a sentient nuke for a sword, Togashi Satsu could shapeshift into an actual dragon form, Yakamo and Hitomi became the new Sun and Moon... ridiculousness was very much the order of the day under certain writing regimes, regardless of which clan you supported.  Frankly, Yoritomo was sorta late to the "ascend to divinity" party.

 

All the Clans are guilty of this though.  The Crane were so hung up on Hoturi, Toshimoko and Uji during the early days it was almost ridiculous, same the Lion with the obsession with Gohei (who was the hardest working card for them during the Clan War) and their love hate relationship for Toturi and Tsuke.  Dragon were actually very much about Hitomi, Mitsu and to a lesser extent Daini for most of the Clan War period.  Scorpion didn't really have any character driven content outside of Kachiko and the people revolving around her during that Period.  Saying that the clans were built on the foundation of their ancestors is actually something that comes out more from the RPG side than the CCG, and honestly the Mantis and the other members of the Yoritomo's Alliance were given as much time there as anyone else.  Mantis actually had one of the first supplements for the 2nd Edition of the RPG. 

There are plenty of foundation characters from the Alliance era that drew love (look at all the Wasp and Fox loyalists who are out there) and were equally loved by the fan base.  Yoritomo draws a special hatred separate from them mainly because he was a different type of character.  He let his ambition out for the world to see and wasn't afraid to tell others the way it was going to be.  The Mantis had plenty of characters to latch onto separate from Yoritomo (if you want I can do one of my Aramasu was one of the greatest wasted story resources for the clan rants). 

The Mantis also had plenty of historical character development from Kaimetsu-Uo and Osano-Wo, to Gusei (love that he got us minor clan status by pulling a knife on the Emperor) who shaped the history of the Clan.  The fact that we were an outlier clan, not as beholden to the traditional power structure of the Empire, served to give the Mantis a distinctive identity that resonated with a lot of fans.  

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8 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

All the Clans are guilty of this though.

Not to nearly the same extent as those three. No one else cried out that their identity wasn't the same without those characters alive and active in the mortal realm doing their thing.

When Shiba Tsukune ascended to become Fortune of Rebirth, the essential character of the Phoenix didn't change.

When Matsu Gohei died a miserable and richly-deserved death in the Burning Sands, the Lion didn't complain that their clan was no longer the same without him in it.

After Kachiko finally got on her all-expenses paid ride to the friggin lake under Kyuden Bayushi, the Scorpion playerbase didn't feel like their faction wasn't characterized properly.

When Yakamo trotted off to become the Sun, the Crab were more true to their assigned character than when we first met them.

The Crane have been their same substandard selves regardless of who runs the show.

The Unicorn experienced a seismic shift after Shinjo's return (although it must be said that in the original plot, only Kamoko really got up to much during the Clan War- the Unicorn were just kinda... there.) They're an interesting case, insofar as their character changed a great deal, but it took the upheaval of the roles of entire families, rather than simply removing the Big Cheese With a Cool Piece of Headgear (which describes Kisada as well as it does Togashi, Yoritomo, and Daigotsu, whddya know)

 

8 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

There are plenty of foundation characters from the Alliance era that drew love (look at all the Wasp and Fox loyalists who are out there) and were equally loved by the fan base.

But no one called out for Kitsune Ryosei to be deified. When Tsuruchi rode off into the sunset, he pretty much took the Code of the Wasp with him. And the Moshi folded so completely it made its way into CCG flavor texts.

8 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

 Yoritomo draws a special hatred separate from them mainly because he was a different type of character.

Yoritomo draws a special hatred because he never, ever answered for anything. Nor did the family he gave his name to, a shadowlands-sponsored civil war aside. Nor did the Champions who followed him.

8 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

The Mantis also had plenty of historical character development from Kaimetsu-Uo and Osano-Wo, to Gusai (love that he got us minor clan status by pulling a knife on the Emperor) who shaped the history of the Clan.

And yet their names aren't the ones the fanboys squeal in ecstasy when they get name-dropped.

8 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

  The fact that we were an outlier clan, not as beholden to the traditional power structure of the Empire, served to give the Mantis a distinctive identity that resonated with a lot of fans.  

No one disputes that. But it has nothing to do with my contention about Yoritomo's cult of personality (or Daigotsu's, or Togashi's). The Mantis wrap their distinctive identity in Yoritomo's skin- almost no other faction feels as beholden to a single character for who and what they are. I mean... Aramasu was forever in Yoritomo's shadow. Kitao/Kumiko was interesting and could have gone somewhere... until it didn't. Naizen was practically a clone.

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22 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Not to nearly the same extent as those three. No one else cried out that their identity wasn't the same without those characters alive and active in the mortal realm doing their thing.

When Shiba Tsukune ascended to become Fortune of Rebirth, the essential character of the Phoenix didn't change.

When Matsu Gohei died a miserable and richly-deserved death in the Burning Sands, the Lion didn't complain that their clan was no longer the same without him in it.

After Kachiko finally got on her all-expenses paid ride to the friggin lake under Kyuden Bayushi, the Scorpion playerbase didn't feel like their faction wasn't characterized properly.

When Yakamo trotted off to become the Sun, the Crab were more true to their assigned character than when we first met them.

The Crane have been their same substandard selves regardless of who runs the show.

The Unicorn experienced a seismic shift after Shinjo's return (although it must be said that in the original plot, only Kamoko really got up to much during the Clan War- the Unicorn were just kinda... there.) They're an interesting case, insofar as their character changed a great deal, but it took the upheaval of the roles of entire families, rather than simply removing the Big Cheese With a Cool Piece of Headgear (which describes Kisada as well as it does Togashi, Yoritomo, and Daigotsu, whddya know)

 

But no one called out for Kitsune Ryosei to be deified. When Tsuruchi rode off into the sunset, he pretty much took the Code of the Wasp with him. And the Moshi folded so completely it made its way into CCG flavor texts.

Yoritomo draws a special hatred because he never, ever answered for anything. Nor did the family he gave his name to, a shadowlands-sponsored civil war aside. Nor did the Champions who followed him.

And yet their names aren't the ones the fanboys squeal in ecstasy when they get name-dropped.

No one disputes that. But it has nothing to do with my contention about Yoritomo's cult of personality (or Daigotsu's, or Togashi's). The Mantis wrap their distinctive identity in Yoritomo's skin- almost no other faction feels as beholden to a single character for who and what they are. I mean... Aramasu was forever in Yoritomo's shadow. Kitao/Kumiko was interesting and could have gone somewhere... until it didn't. Naizen was practically a clone.

Mantis never claimed we needed Yoritomo to define us, but hey you keep saying that.  Heck our preferred personality was the ambitious pirate scum.  We never pushed to get him back, we just wanted to be recognized for the status we had striven to earn from sacrifice and effort.  As a faction we were looked down on by most others because we were the Johnny come lately.  Twice our faction was taken out of the game because we didn't fit in.  

Were you playing when they cut Gohei cause I sure as **** remember the Lion ******* when they lost him.  He was a pivotal part of their decks at the time and losing him as one of their only first turn peeps was a huge blow.  Have you seen the Gohei is Go memes from the Lion since the game started or the reaction when he was name dropped in the first Lion fiction. 

And you honestly think the Scorpion haven't spent years just waiting to get Kachiko back.  

How many Dragons are waiting with baited breath for Mitsu to come back, or Cranes begging for Uji.

You accuse the Mantis of being a cult of personality and just ignore that the other clans have the same personalities obsessions (**** they brought Kisada back twice because the crab loved him that much).

Was there a push to Deify Yoritomo sure but Hitomi had the same following only worse, when the story team tried to turn her into the villain the Dragon fan base were turned so much by the idea that they did everything in their power to try and steer themselves out of the story.  When they wanted to make Yoritomo the villain the players said, cool we get interesting story now what can we do with it.  Mantis identity was adapting to what the team threw at us, taking the bits they gave us and trying to make something useful out of it.  Our third official stronghold had a rule that said we couldn't use 1/2 of our character base and we ran with it, start including the Rat sensei and make due with our options.   

As for Yoritomo never facing the consequences of his actions what clan war era characters did.  Yakamo gave his name to an Oni, followed his father in abandoning their duty to guard the wall from the Shadowlands and led an assault on the capital to take over the Empire before the rise of Fu Leng was public knowledge.  Guess what happened to him, they made him a living god and the new Sun. 

Phoenix ditto with the Oni summoning, most of their leadership fell to the taint during the Clan War and all was forgiven at the drop of a hat. 

Kachiko betrayed the entire empire, poisoned the emperor so that he became susceptible to possession by Fu Leng, kidnapped and replaced Hoturi with a monster and set it loose on the Crane with an army of Shadowlands madmen because she was pissed he killed their son (a child by the way she never told Hoturi he was the father of) during her clans failed attempt to take over the empire.

Lion clan were split on whether to follow the Emperor or not and only changed side when Toturi shamed them into it.  Kitsu summoned an Oni and bound it to the Jade Champion but hey they didn't do it to be mean so lets forgive that as well.

Do we chant his name yes, but not because of who he was , because of what he gave the clan (plus you may not have noticed but the name actually has a cadence that lends it self to chanting being 4 syllables with plenty of repeated sounds with all the oh's).  Its not all about him heck as I've said many times my two favorite Mantis are Yoritomo Kamoto (our first personality) and Aramasu.  Why because they have great stories that the rest of the fan base choose to ignore to perpetrate the Yoritomo is the only character that the Mantis have with any real story.

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Just now, Schmoozies said:

Mantis never claimed we needed Yoritomo to define us, but hey you keep saying that.

You never said it. The fanbase just heavily implies it every time his name comes up.

Just now, Schmoozies said:

Twice our faction was taken out of the game because we didn't fit in.

Yep. Actually, I count it as three times, because what the Mantis did during the Celestial arc amounted to... going to the Ivory Kingdoms at the end.

Just now, Schmoozies said:

And you honestly think the Scorpion haven't spent years just waiting to get Kachiko back. 

Yes. I do. Shoju is where the pining has been keenest, which is really funny, since they basically never "had" Shoju before.

Just now, Schmoozies said:

You accuse the Mantis of being a cult of personality and just ignore that the other clans have the same personalities obsessions

Yes? Because the faction as a whole never got out from under his shadow, to the point where the absorbed families started acting so much like the Yoritomo family that "Borgitomo" became a thing?

Just now, Schmoozies said:

Was there a push to Deify Yoritomo sure

Honestly, the deification is fine. For a while there, just about everybody got a god. (Tsukune, Coolhelmet McTraitorface/Kisada, Yakamo, Hitomi...)

Just now, Schmoozies said:

but Hitomi had the same following only worse, when the story team tried to turn her into the villain the Dragon fan base were turned so much by the idea that they did everything in their power to try and steer themselves out of the story. 

... You DO know I lumped the Dragon into my Cult of Personality addict list with the Mantis and the Spider, right? Because a huge part of the HDM was the guys used to being Togashi's secret weapon for good bridling at the changes his depature and Hitomi's ascension seemed to be bringing on.

Just now, Schmoozies said:

As for Yoritomo never facing the consequences of his actions what clan war era characters did.  Yakamo gave his name to an Oni, followed his father in abandoning their duty to guard the wall from the Shadowlands and led an assault on the capital to take over the Empire before the rise of Fu Leng was public knowledge.  Guess what happened to him, they made him a living god and the new Sun.

After being one of the Thunders, and joining his gut-stabbed traitorous pappy in trying to undo what he'd done, and he was ina  whole villain to hero arc while hitomi was supposed to be on a hero to villain one, and...

Just now, Schmoozies said:

Phoenix ditto with the Oni summoning, most of their leadership fell to the taint during the Clan War and all was forgiven at the drop of a hat.

Ohhhhhh boy, did YOU bite off the wrong example- four out of five elemental masters died, the clan champion died, and Tsuke killed so many Phoenix that the clan actually got fewer personality cards in the next ccg set. They were so depleted that for a while they were offering fealty to any ronin shugenja they could find. They were so depleted, in fact, that your boy Yoritomo decided to try and mug them for land.

Those are consequences far steeper than anything the Mantis faced until around the never-launched Onyx Edition (which was going to be a terminally unfair pile of stupid- for all that I spent years wanting the mantis to finally take one on the chin like everyone else, that was ridiculous).

Just now, Schmoozies said:

Kachiko betrayed the entire empire, poisoned the emperor so that he became susceptible to possession by Fu Leng, kidnapped and replaced Hoturi with a monster and set it loose on the Crane with an army of Shadowlands madmen because she was pissed he killed their son (a child by the way she never told Hoturi he was the father of) during her clans failed attempt to take over the empire.

And ended up bonded to the original host of the Lying Darkness beneath Kyuden Bayushi.

Just now, Schmoozies said:

Lion clan were split on whether to follow the Emperor or not and only changed side when Toturi shamed them into it.  Kitsu summoned an Oni and bound it to the Jade Champion but hey they didn't do it to be mean so lets forgive that as well.

1. Toturi was also Lion in that equation.

2. The Akodo family stayed gone for a long, long time.

3. Tsuko killed herself to allow the Lion to do the right thing.

4. Okura no Oni was just one big pile of bad writing. But that crime also happened AFTER the Clan War period- and there were consequences to the tune of losing Shiro no Yojin, Okura, you know, dying...

Just now, Schmoozies said:

Do we chant his name yes

As I said.

Just now, Schmoozies said:

Why because they have great stories that the rest of the fan base choose to ignore to perpetrate the Yoritomo is the only character that the Mantis have with any real story.

Which feeds into my argument.

I remember many a map game, tearing my hair in frustration as the Mantis gobbled up every boat-related thing they could find, perpetuating a naval supremacy which was meaningless since nobody bothered to challenge it.

It is not the Mantis fanbase's fault that they were written into a corner. Deciding they liked it there? Another matter.

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1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

After being one of the Thunders, and joining his gut-stabbed traitorous pappy in trying to undo what he'd done, and he was ina  whole villain to hero arc while hitomi was supposed to be on a hero to villain one, and...

Ohhhhhh boy, did YOU bite off the wrong example- four out of five elemental masters died, the clan champion died, and Tsuke killed so many Phoenix that the clan actually got fewer personality cards in the next ccg set. They were so depleted that for a while they were offering fealty to any ronin shugenja they could find. They were so depleted, in fact, that your boy Yoritomo decided to try and mug them for land.

Those are consequences far steeper than anything the Mantis faced until around the never-launched Onyx Edition (which was going to be a terminally unfair pile of stupid- for all that I spent years wanting the mantis to finally take one on the chin like everyone else, that was ridiculous).

How is Yakamo's redemption story line more worthy of praise than Yoritomo's rise to power.

Mantis had 5 people (2 of which  were uniques) at the launch of Gold edition and didn't get a stronghold.  When we finally did get a stronghold in that arc we had about half the character pool of everyone else.  Phoenix have never been in a position where they could not be played.  Yes they were behind the curve when Jade launched but as soon as they got their stronghold they caught up pretty quick.  Remind me which clan it was that ended up winning the major story line for that event, oh yeah it was Phoenix.  And Phoenix have always been their own worst enemies.  How long did it take the player base to latch back onto the taint stronghold as soon as they could get their mitts back on it.  And how did that end, oh yeah corrupted Air Dragon and no other negative results for the Phoenix.  AS to the earlier Borgitomo comment how did those Agasha taste, bet the Dragon were real happy you gobbled them up.  

As to the Yoritomo invasion of the Phoenix that was all story team driven but heay we ran with it cause it gave us some interesting story beats like Aramasu and the whole Kolat connection adn the whole Mantis/Fox schisim.

1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Which feeds into my argument.

I remember many a map game, tearing my hair in frustration as the Mantis gobbled up every boat-related thing they could find, perpetuating a naval supremacy which was meaningless since nobody bothered to challenge it.

It is not the Mantis fanbase's fault that they were written into a corner. Deciding they liked it there? Another matter.

Wait so the Mantis should ignore the primary trait that the design team gave to us because its to fanboyish.  Guess we better disregard everything the Unicorn do based on their love of the Cavalry trait, or Scorpion and their love of the whole Ninja schtick.  Mantis were one of the last factions added to the Clan War era (along with the Monks) and had one of the weakest initial design focuses.  We were a ranged focus faction (something that Naga arguably did better than us) that didn't actually let us win battles since it either bowed out our army and didn't leave us enough force to break provinces and we just ended up getting killed by the stuff we couldn't shoot cause we had to get through their followers to get at the characters that were the real threat, and an Economic advantage that would result in us losing the game if we used it to much.  Our next stronghold was a stat monster and nothing else.  We followed that with a stronghold that cut 1/2 our character base from the available card pool.  And than we got dropped.  We've always been happy to take whatever the story team wanted to give us and run with it.  Wasp Bounty Hunters to magistrates we ran it, Kitsune Spirit Animals and an honor focus we tried to make if work (lord were we poorly set up for that).  We got a lot of hate at the end of the AEG period cause yes we had a borderline broken stronghold that was distorting the meta far more than it should, but just about every clan has had that experience at one point or another.  Were the Yoritomo an important part of the Mantis appeal, sure but they were not the end all and be all of the Mantis and your insistence that they were ignores the large fan base for the Wasp and Fox clans.  Centipede I concede were fairly wasted until they got the storm/sun conflict.

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41 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

How is Yakamo's redemption story line more worthy of praise than Yoritomo's rise to power.

It isn't. Yoritomo's rise to power is no more ridculous than anything else. As I keep saying, and you apparently keep missing, it's what happens after the story is told that I'm talking about.

41 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Mantis had 5 people (2 of which  were uniques) at the launch of Gold edition and didn't get a stronghold.  When we finally did get a stronghold in that arc we had about half the character pool of everyone else.  Phoenix have never been in a position where they could not be played.  Yes they were behind the curve when Jade launched but as soon as they got their stronghold they caught up pretty quick.  Remind me which clan it was that ended up winning the major story line for that event, oh yeah it was Phoenix.  And Phoenix have always been their own worst enemies.  How long did it take the player base to latch back onto the taint stronghold as soon as they could get their mitts back on it.  And how did that end, oh yeah corrupted Air Dragon and no other negative results for the Phoenix.

You claimed the Phoenix suffered no consequences. I listed how they did. You claim those consequences don't count for some reason.

You DO realize the Phoenix routinely blow themselves up, right? Oh yeah, you do, because you say as much right there in bold. The Phoenix spent almost their entire AEG tenure absorbing the consequences for actions, often without even getting anything cool out of it storywise- like, say, winning the "hero rides to Volturnum," and basically... getting exactly that while the actual narrative heroes did the heavy lifting. I should also mention that that "major story line" basically involved a guy riding the Air Dragon in... and then NOT being the Big Hero.

 

Besides which... the Phoenix playerbase's mad stampedes in random directions is basically a running joke at this point... I think I've referred to our disunity in like, half of my last three days' worth of posts here.

That fact- and it is a fact- does not change the fact of the Yoritomo/Daigotsu/Togashi faction fixation.

41 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

AS to the earlier Borgitomo comment how did those Agasha taste, bet the Dragon were real happy you gobbled them up. 

Pfft, after Chieh we never DID anything with 'em. Feel free to read my post history man, I think the Agasha were horribly mishandled- and I couldn't believe anyone whatsoever would give them even a scrap of respect, to say nothing of the Dragon just letting it go.

But they also didn't show up acting just like the Isawa.

41 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Wait so the Mantis should ignore the primary trait that the design team gave to us because its to fanboyish.

No. Allow me to unpack this, since you appear to have fogged your screen a little:

I think the Mantis should have encouraged everybody to get into the navy game so that they'd show up in the story more than once in a blue moon, since their mainland holdings were often forgotten about in "you guys are hard to write for because you're out there on the islands" excuses.

Moreover... what good is having an awesome navy if nobody ever comes out to play with it, and they don't really suffer for not doing so?

41 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Were the Yoritomo an important part of the Mantis appeal, sure but they were not the end all and be all of the Mantis and your insistence that they were ignores the large fan base for the Wasp and Fox clans.

Many of whom were just as frustrated by the Yoritomo CoP as non-Mantis fans.

The Fox, in particular... man were the Mantis players sold a bill of goods. Let the Fox die out, or save them? No real choice. So Naizen tells the Fox that almost nothing that matters will change.
Aaaaaand that was almost the last time we ever saw a Kitsune acting like a Kitsune.

41 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Centipede I concede were fairly wasted until they got the storm/sun conflict.

Dude, Moshi, Agasha, Toritaka... not every absorbtion can work. All three basically disappeared- not just their identity. They were conspicuous by getting up to nothing much. Moshi Amika was supposed to become the spiritual lead of the Empire, as I recall. Aaaaaaand then it was time to put the Spider over, so she got killed off before that story went anywhere.

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On 9.12.2017 at 11:25 PM, Kakita Shiro said:

You'd be wasting the potential value of Hotaru's hand in marriage by letting her marry a clan member. Let someone marry into the clan and you gain allies/resources/friends.

I cant remember a crane clan champion ,except Kuruhito and Doji Domotai, marring outside of the clan. Satusme married Toshimoko's Sister, Horturi married Doji Ameiko, Kuwanan married Doji Narumi, Makoto married an unnamed Kakita Maid. Kakita Noritoshi married Kakita Mai... The Crane ( and as far as i can remember most other clans too) rarly pair their most importend Players with coutsiders.

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Just now, Vendettar said:

I cant remember a crane clan champion ,except Kuruhito and Doji Domotai, marring outside of the clan. Satusme married Toshimoko's Sister, Horturi married Doji Ameiko, Kuwanan married Doji Narumi, Makoto married an unnamed Kakita Maid. Kakita Noritoshi married Kakita Mai... The Crane ( and as far as i can remember most other clans too) rarly pair their most importend Players with coutsiders.

I can't comment on most of those pairings, but wasn't Ameiko a kitsune and therefore not a Crane? =)

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6 minutes ago, Kakita Shiro said:

I can't comment on most of those pairings, but wasn't Ameiko a kitsune and therefore not a Crane? =)

She was adopted and raised by the Kitsune family, but was left as a baby on a temple step in Fox lands and was believed to be a child of Peasants.  She was in fact a Fox Wife (Kitsune Spirit) and played into the early habit of the creators of the game mining real Japaneses folk tales for characters origins. 

You can find examples of most clans having had a champion marry outside of the Clan for some reason or another, but they are not very frequent as no one wants a potential heir that may have split loyalties on their fathers or mothers side.  It happened more frequently in the CCG timelines due to story results and player interaction at various Winter Court type events, but did not always end well (See Dragon/Unicorn Neelish/Shikei storyline)

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10 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

Realistically, there would be a lot of political advantage in making cross-clan marriages for high-ranking samurai. It happened a lot in medieval and Renaissance Europe.

It would except when you have a central government that draws a lot of power by ensuring that as many of their vassals are squabbling with each other as possible.  If the in-laws are your potential enemy you're a lot less inclined to get in to conflict with them and far more likely to realize hey why are we listening to that guy.

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2 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

It would except when you have a central government that draws a lot of power by ensuring that as many of their vassals are squabbling with each other as possible.  If the in-laws are your potential enemy you're a lot less inclined to get in to conflict with them and far more likely to realize hey why are we listening to that guy.

I think she meant political advantage for the clans doing the marrying. For the Hantei yeah it might be a problem.

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1 hour ago, Mandalore525 said:

I think she meant political advantage for the clans doing the marrying. For the Hantei yeah it might be a problem.

I did, yeah. But overall, this again gets back to the question we hashed out in a giant thread some months ago, about how powerful that central authority is or isn't, and what kinds of behavior make sense depending on the answer to that question. I favor the "weak centralized authority" model of Rokugan, where the Hantei are more like the Pope was to pre-modern Europe: lots of symbolic authority, but relatively little ability to outright control the various clans/countries, so they're more liable to steer things by the "soft touch" of maneuvers like encouraging certain kinds of marriage alliance. (All you have to do is look at European history to know that international royal marriages are as much a driver of war as a cure for it.)

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