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Tim Kelly

Correct procedure for gaining a Level?

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6 hours ago, Almeric said:

Aye, multiple enemies on multiple spaces, but if you initiate, that's two separate actions to fight both of them, and if it's Enemy-Turn, they're still fighting you at separate times with separate die rolls.  I'd say in all cases of multiple opponents in a single turn, you'd gain each clump of exp at the end of each fight.

Yeah, I guess the only way to fight more than 2 would be to have multiple aggressive enemies on the same space and then move on to it as it doesn't take an action to fight those. You are also correct that you should get the xp for each battle after that one occurs, I just usually do all of my fighting first then gain all of the xp as it seems to go quicker that way. I think it would be possible on one turn to gain enough xp to level twice but it would be exceedingly rare. You would need to move into a space with multiple aggressive enemies and then fight an enemy that would complete a quest that also awards xp(it's a bonus if that enemy is also aggressive as it wouldn't use your action). I think the chances of that happening in a normal game would be almost zero without trying to make it happen.

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What about the difference level up time from RRG and LTP. 

 

LTP: If the XP peg moves beyond your last S.P.E.C.I.A.L. token, you level up! 
RRG:  If the XP peg is in the hole beneath the rightmost S.P.E.C.I.A.L. token the survivor has, and the survivor gains an XP, the peg is moved back to the leftmost hole. The survivor levels up!

For me these are two different timings. 
For first Level Up in LTP you need 2XP for under second token you have. and for RRG it is 3 XP for move XP peg from last to left most space. 

 

What do you think?

 

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Yes, Trevor 79, this is the crux of the problem.  Ordinarily, the RRG expands and gives more specifics about rules.  In this case, it seems to set forth a different procedure, and this procedure results in a different outcome than the LTP method.  It may well turn out FFG will say "RRG is right, no matter what".  In my opinion, the LTP is the preferred method.  It bugs me they could give two contradicting examples for one rule situation.

TK

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15 hours ago, Trevor79 said:

LTP: If the XP peg moves beyond your last S.P.E.C.I.A.L. token, you level up! 
RRG:  If the XP peg is in the hole beneath the rightmost S.P.E.C.I.A.L. token the survivor has, and the survivor gains an XP, the peg is moved back to the leftmost hole. The survivor levels up!

Maybe I just didn't read the original post in this thread very carefully, but to me, this reads the same.

Situation:  New game, my character has S and I

If I gain one XP, the peg moves from the starting spot to S.  If I gain another XP, my peg moves from S to I.  It's in the last SPECIAL spot, but I haven't leveled up under either of the scenarios.

As soon as I gain the third XP, my peg moves "beyond" the last SPECIAL.  Likewise, my peg was in the rightmost slot, and I gained an exp, so I level up.  Moving beyond my last SPECIAL has the same effect of putting the peg back in the leftmost hole.

Is the dilemma about whether or not the leftmost hole counts as a spot if you were to, say, gain, 3 EXP at the same time and move from S, past I, and then back around again?  If so, I must advise that yes, the leftmost hole always counts when advancing the XP marker.

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Hot crap, I saw the problem with leveling up in action last weekend, and I totally get the issue now.  It was also captured on video, so that might be a thing in a week or two...

ANYWAY, what happened was not a double-level-up situation, but still something confusing that needs to be addressed by FFG.  It could definitely lead to faster-than-intended leveling up, depending on your interpretation.

 

Let's say someone has PI, with exp marker on I.  Then that player completes a quest for 3 XP.  Do you peg to zero, P, and then I again, and THEN level up, OR do you peg to zero, level up, and THEN peg 2 stats?

That can make a big different in the long term.  If you finish the pegging and then level up, well what if you pull S that goes in front of your P?  You skipped over the S while pegging.  If you and your opponent have both gained 2 XP and are close to levelling up, and then you kill 3 L1 mobs while your opponent runs off and finishes a 3XP quest, that's a significant loss for you!

So would definitely vote for the method where one stops pegging to level up, and then finishes pegging.  It's more complicated, but I think it's important.

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Yes, this is the problem I have with the RR version, and why I like the LTP version better.  I don't like the idea it's possible to "skip" some letters if one does all peg movement first, and then draws letters.

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I think it helps to think of it this way - the RRG is the source of the rules, the LTP guide is just a useful tool for new players, it doesn't define the rules and can be misleading sometimes.  The RRG is pretty unambiguous on the matter - you move all your XP, then gain any levels (meaning you can theoretically level up faster by gaining large amounts in one go, if there's any way to do that).

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Thanks, mazz0!  I think everyone on the "LTP" side of the argument totally gets the idea the RRG is supposed to be the law.  What drives us nuts is:

1) How did they write something which seems to be so contradictory?  The RRG is supposed to provide detail, not a new process.

2) The RRG for this game has some info which was left out, but is presented completely in the LTP.  FAQs of other FFG games have occasionally corrected the RRG when their quest for detail led to errors.  Is it possible we've got that situation again with Fallout?

3) The LTP version just seems so much better.  No skipping!

I'm sure we'll likely hear from "on high" the RRG is correct, at which point the LTP team will continue playing just as we please. ;) 

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1 hour ago, Tim Kelly said:

Thanks, mazz0!  I think everyone on the "LTP" side of the argument totally gets the idea the RRG is supposed to be the law.  What drives us nuts is:

1) How did they write something which seems to be so contradictory?  The RRG is supposed to provide detail, not a new process.

2) The RRG for this game has some info which was left out, but is presented completely in the LTP.  FAQs of other FFG games have occasionally corrected the RRG when their quest for detail led to errors.  Is it possible we've got that situation again with Fallout?

3) The LTP version just seems so much better.  No skipping!

I'm sure we'll likely hear from "on high" the RRG is correct, at which point the LTP team will continue playing just as we please. ;) 

Maybe.  It surely never comes up though?  Like someone else said, when are you going to get four or more XP in one go?

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9 hours ago, mazz0 said:

Maybe.  It surely never comes up though?  Like someone else said, when are you going to get four or more XP in one go?

Check the original post in this thread for how it can show up by killing just a measly level 3 critter.

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27 minutes ago, Tim Kelly said:

Check the original post in this thread for how it can show up by killing just a measly level 3 critter.

You mean this bit?

Quote

Imagine this situation…I have 2 “special” letters: S & L.  My XP marker is on L when I kill a Level 3 enemy

That just puts his XP marker back to L (L -> Far Left Hole -> S -> L), only one level gained.

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Well since there isn't a competitive scene its up to the individual groups.  Even though the "RRG" says gain all the xp before leveling, my group likes to level when the peg goes to the empty space at the beginning of the track and then advance the marker to account for any leftover xp.  We find it more thematic that way and so that's how we play it.

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12 hours ago, Tim Kelly said:

The problem is NOT the levels gained, it's WHEN the "S" is counted.  The LTP method seems to be the "right" way to me.

Oh I see - you mean you're further along the track than you would be the other way.  Gotcha.

I just see it as a nice little bonus to gaining large amounts of XP in one go :)

Edited by mazz0

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On 10/02/2018 at 1:45 AM, Fnoffen said:

Still no answer from FFG on the matter. At least not in my mailbox.

Good Luck!!!

I'm still waiting on a response to a different question. A whole month and counting...

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Finally got a response from Andrew Fischer today!

"The method specified in the Rules Reference is correct. You gain all XP, then apply the effects of any level ups you earned from that XP. This method was used to avoid any memory issues that arose from applying a level-up in the middle of earning XP (and then having to remember how much XP was left to earn)."

Can't say I personally agree with the ruling but at least it's an official answer. Wouldn't be suprised if it would end up in the FAQ too.

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The funny thing is, I don't even own the game. ? Yet at least.

But what can I say? I'm a rules nerd and inconcistensies like this lvl up business bugs me to no end. I just HAVE to know these things.

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Leveling up twice makes makes way more sense for me and seems more correct, not only because of the whole "memory" thing, but from common sense.

When you're low level and you kill a high-level opponent, you're supposed to gain a lot more XP and deserve to level up twice, because that's supposed to be a harder encounter. That's just a common trope in most RPGs. Whenever you gain a single big lump of XP, you level up multiple times.

Of course, the LTP is not worded very clearly and this allows for some subjectivity, which is never good in a rules manual. The LTP says "If the XP peg moves beyond your last S.P.E.C.I.A.L. token, you level up! You place the XP peg back into the far-left hole and start the process over if you still have some remaining XP to gain.", but it never specifies to level up first and then continue moving the XP.

It doesn't specify what "process" is, so "process" could be interpreted as "the process of moving the peg through the holes" or "the process of leveling up". So I never saw it as a "contradiction" problem, as I always thought that The Rules Reference only added some clarity to this, describing the scenario where you'd get more than 1 level in a single fight.

Edited by LordMallis

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FFS, I think that's pretty sad that they made it unfair because they thought we couldn't remember a single digit number.  I'm definitely playing it the "fair" way and they can shove that rule up their 4th point of contact.

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23 hours ago, Ziggy03 said:

FFS, I think that's pretty sad that they made it unfair because they thought we couldn't remember a single digit number.  I'm definitely playing it the "fair" way and they can shove that rule up their 4th point of contact.

How's it unfair?  It's the same for everyone, if they're somehow able to find a way of getting 4xp in one go early game.

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Easy: Let's say you have 2 Level 1 characters.  One has so far received no XP and the other has 2 XP and his peg is on the last letter he possesses.  Then, let's say they both gain 4 XP.  The person who previously had 2 XP is now level 3, while the person who had no XP is now level 2 and has his XP peg on his first letter.  Now the level 2 player gains 2 XP.  His XP tracker moves to his last letter and he is still level 2.

End result: 2 players earned 6 XP, but one is level 2 and one is level 3.  I would call that unfair.  

 

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3 hours ago, Ziggy03 said:

Easy: Let's say you have 2 Level 1 characters.  One has so far received no XP and the other has 2 XP and his peg is on the last letter he possesses.  Then, let's say they both gain 4 XP.  The person who previously had 2 XP is now level 3, while the person who had no XP is now level 2 and has his XP peg on his first letter.  Now the level 2 player gains 2 XP.  His XP tracker moves to his last letter and he is still level 2.

End result: 2 players earned 6 XP, but one is level 2 and one is level 3.  I would call that unfair.  

 

I still don't think that's unfair.

If the other player had 2 XP, he too would have reached level 3. It just adds a new level of strategy. Maybe it's better to first gain 2 XP instead of 4 in order to level up faster. A player could make use of this in his/her strategy.

If both players know this rule, it's not unfair. It's the same for everyone.

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