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suburbaknght

Cross-Family Training

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I've always kept it simple. Except if you took advantages or disadvantages reflecting this in background, your name is the one of your parents, and you serve their lords as your ancestors probably did before. 

for players, as long as they pay for it and role-play the drawbacks, I'm OK with multiple and different schools. 

for NPC it's a bit particular. In my Rokugan 4e, Not everyone goes to schools. The mass of samurai still study and train at dojo with Sensei, their abilities comes from skill ranks and non school restricted Kata, but schools are attended only by the worthy or the wealthy. 

I also think family trait represent your genetics, while school traits would be your training. 

so yes, folks unschooled would only get a family trait. 

it sets the PCs apart and make named npcs with techniques more impactful encounters and technique and schools less mundane. 

 

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2 hours ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

That just shows a deficiency in the character creation process.  It's a design flaw. Nothing more, nothing less.  At no point is it a "bonus" because for the vast majority of characters, it actually leaves them at a disadvantage compared to the Elite Few whose "Bonus" skills actually line up with the character creation process in an advantageous way.  Stop using the word "bonus," please. It's the most egregiously misleading term possible because it's literally not a bonus for the overwhelming majority of possible character types.  If you want to call them "free" then fine.  But that's putting lipstick on a pig.  The Matsu's "free" skills are clearly better than the Ikoma's for being a bushi, by a full 8XP, while the Ikoma, even as a bard, isn't significantly better at being a courtier than the Matsu, because all he's good at is Composition and Peformance, rather than Courtesy or Command.  I could literally make a Matsu Commander with Command 2 and Courtesy 2 (the principle skills in Social intrigues for the Persuade action), and then he's still got Tactics 2 and Fitness 2, so is both better at being a bushi and equally talented at being a courtier as an Ikoma bard.  Ikoma just gets to suck it, unless we start a slam poetry contest, at which point I guess my Matsu bushi must gracefully admit to being bested.

Getting free stuff *is* a bonus. My getting a company car puts me at a disadvantage against everyone else in the company who also gets a company car because I walk to work while they drive, according to your logic. It’d certainly be fairer and better for me if I got a larger salary instead, but that still doesn’t mean I’m somehow worse off getting a car than not getting anything at all.

I agree chargen is flawed. I definitely hope it gets improved. But getting free stuff is still a plus, even if it’s stuff you don’t really care about.

As for the Ikoma, he should be hyping people up using Performance. That’s the Lion way, and it should help them in court.

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That's a false equivalency.  It's like the two of us having the same job, living thirty miles outside the city, but me getting a Mercedes and you getting a bus pass.  Sure, the company is picking up both of our transportation costs as a "bonus" for working there, but my "bonus" is significantly better than yours.  Enjoy your "bonus" while you have to get up earlier and get home later. Nothing like a few opportunity costs to really drive home how a bonus isn't actually a bonus unless you benefit from it.  And while you're doing it, can you stop with the pointless semantics to twist yourself into a winning argument?  It's disingenuous and a waste of everyone's time. If you say something like "Well, I don't have to pay for parking or sit in traffic..."  It's not a "bonus" in any meaningful sense, even if you can squeeze yourself into a place where semantically, it's technically correct.  You're using the Obi Wan Kenobi Defense.  And it's pretty disrespectful for two people pretending to have an intelligent conversation.

At any rate, I'm done with this conversation. There's nothing of value that will be added.

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In the previous 20 years of L5R, this concept never existed.

The Doji inheriting an elite fashion sense is just... silly.

#1 Heritage tables have been a thing since 1e. You literally can inherit a better fashion sense than someone else who had precisely the same start in life.

#2 I was mainly talking about inheriting traits via clan, family, and the divine influence of Hantei's celestial mandate. That authority on a subject is considered inheritable is just something on the side, far as I'm concerned.

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51 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

That's a false equivalency.  It's like the two of us having the same job, living thirty miles outside the city, but me getting a Mercedes and you getting a bus pass.  Sure, the company is picking up both of our transportation costs as a "bonus" for working there, but my "bonus" is significantly better than yours.  Enjoy your "bonus" while you have to get up earlier and get home later. Nothing like a few opportunity costs to really drive home how a bonus isn't actually a bonus unless you benefit from it.  And while you're doing it, can you stop with the pointless semantics to twist yourself into a winning argument?  It's disingenuous and a waste of everyone's time. If you say something like "Well, I don't have to pay for parking or sit in traffic..."  It's not a "bonus" in any meaningful sense, even if you can squeeze yourself into a place where semantically, it's technically correct.  You're using the Obi Wan Kenobi Defense.  And it's pretty disrespectful for two people pretending to have an intelligent conversation.

At any rate, I'm done with this conversation. There's nothing of value that will be added.

I think Performance should be a meaningfully useful skill for an Ikoma courtier, and will be if the player uses it effectively. Is it as universally useful as Courtesy? Probably not, but I never claimed it was. 

No offense, but I’m not the one claiming getting skill ranks is a disadvantage just because they’re not the “best” skills. I don’t think you are in any position to call me disingenuous.

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2 hours ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

If my characters starts at 3/3/2/1/1 with four skills at 2 (an average Matsu Commander)

I'm not sure where the extra skill at 2 is coming from. Could you expand on that?

31 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Getting free stuff *is* a bonus. My getting a company car puts me at a disadvantage against everyone else in the company who also gets a company car because I walk to work while they drive, according to your logic. It’d certainly be fairer and better for me if I got a larger salary instead, but that still doesn’t mean I’m somehow worse off getting a car than not getting anything at all.

This is a little like tips as a bonus. They could be a bonus, but since they end up replacing something expected, they end up not really being a bonus. If your GM noticed that everyone starts off with such low skill that they can't do most adventures, he'll give everyone a bunch of starting xp.

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Considering that's not anywhere near what I said...

While against my better judgement, I'll make one last chance to break this down Barney-style.

If everyone gets a thing, and there's a baseline value for those things, nothing is "free" or "bonus." I regret even giving you that minor concession. I made a terrible mistake. I had hoped it would make you stop talking nonsense, instead it only encouraged you.  Don't call it a "bonus." Don't call it "free."  It is neither of those things. Built into the character system, against a finite total of skills, two of them are selected for you. You are not being gifted these points.  Everyone gets them. Just like trophies.  Every character gets two of those skills. Nobody gets three, nobody gets one. Are we in agreement? The answer is yes, we are. There are 8 Core Skills (Clan, Family, School).  No more, no less.  No matter if I make a bushi or a courtier or a shugenja, a Crab or a Scorpion or a Unicorn.  Two skills are assigned to family choice.  My character has not been gifted these things. It wasn't a bonus. There is no situation where those two Skill points can be taken away, or not assigned in the first place.  Even the Mantis, who have no named families in the current timeline, get these two points because they are built into that step of the character creation process.  Perhaps, eventually, we see rules for ronin characters and they don't get these two skills assigned. But we're not working on perhapses, so let's not get sidetracked. Everyone gets these two skills. Not for free. Not as a bonus. Two skills. No more, no less. At no point is calling these a "bonus" correct terminology. They are never a bonus, and a bonus they will never be. Nor are they free.  If it happens Aramis believes they are a bonus, he is wrong. You... are wrong. It's not bad to be wrong.  You just need to be willing to learn and accept being wrong. The Skill Points from Family selection are subtracted from a total.  8-2.  It equals six, though I may regret saying that, since the math is irrelevant and you might start talking about the numbers equation. The numbers don't matter, only that they are a number and a number has a value. If it was 99-2 and it were to equal 97, they would still not be a bonus, nor would they be free.  Let's do algebra instead.   x-2=y.  x=y+2.  Characters get x number of skills.  Whatever x is, if you subtract 2 from it, you have not been given a bonus.  You have not gotten anything for free.   Everyone else has x-2 as well. Always.  You will always have x skills, and 2 of them will be from Family.  You didn't get them as a bonus, nor did you get them for free.  You just got them as part of the character building process. You did Step 1, and you got a skill.  You can't do Step 1 and not get a skill. So you proceed to Step 2, and you get 2 skills.  You can't skip Step 2 and not get 2 skills.  You didn't get anything as a bonus. You didn't get anything for free.  It's like a job.  If you do Step 1, you get paid in 1 Skill Point. If you do Step 2, you get paid 2 more Skill Points.  If only Step 5 worked the same way, it probably wouldn't be an issue if you had 3 of your Skill Points predetermined. 

Dog poop is free.  If somebody leaves dog poop on your lawn, you have not gotten a bonus.  You just have poop on your lawn.  Unless you went to Gardener School and can convert it into free fertilizer, dog poop on your lawn holds no value.  You pick it up, and put it in the trash, and you've gained nothing, but also lost time.  So, if you have a neighbor whose dog always poops on your lawn, you have an advantage for going to Gardener School.  If you wanted to go to any other school, you just have dog poop you can't use. 

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I think some of this discussion is forgetting an important point, and I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence, but L5R is a "role-playing game".  The mechanics are designed to reinforce some choices or limit others.  If I create a Hida Bushi that attends the Hida Defender school, the character creation is going to reinforce that decision to make him a stronger samurai that might be a little too "cookie cutter" for some people to RP.  However, if I go off script and create a Hiruma (still a Crab) scout that goes to the Shosuro (Scorpion) Infiltrator school (bit of a strectch, but still a worthy choice for someone who needs to be sneaky to do their job), the game mechanics may inhibit the overall character but I have someone that would be a lot more fun to RP and have an interesting story to go along with (provided I do my homework and clear it with the GM).  I understand that the Scorpion's of all people would be very close-lipped about sharing their secrets with an outsider, but they may be willing to give a little something in order to be owed a favor by the Crabs.  The beauty of these types of games is that we are only really limited by our imagination.  Don't get too hung up on the details of why this should or shouldn't be allowed, or go crazy trying to crunch the numbers to find that perfect balance.  Instead, just create a character that you will enjoy playing and go have a great adventure.:ph34r:

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