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Cross-Family Training

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45 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

 first few months of rigorous conditioning an and instruction (whether social, physical, or artistic) they receive in their school.

You would have to be stretching it pretty far to tell me that 

That a Hida attending the Yasuki Courtier school is going to develop +1 strength social instruction

Or lets say it's a Hiruma at the Yasuki Courtier school, yeah that rigorous social instruction is really going to improve his Agility.

Which... is exactly my point? If the Hida isn’t likely to develop his Str through his training at the Yasuki Courtier School, then obviously it must be something he is genetically predisposed to or at least had in him from before. Hence, based on family or at least those who he grew up with as a young child. The family trait bonus being connected to your school, which would be the case if your family name was connected to your school, makes very little logical sense. So, your family name being connected to your school makes little sense.

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1 minute ago, nameless ronin said:

Which... is exactly my point? If the Hida isn’t likely to develop his Str through his training at the Yasuki Courtier School, then obviously it must be something he is genetically predisposed to or at least had in him from before. Hence, based on family or at least those who he grew up with as a young child. The family trait bonus being connected to your school, which would be the case if your family name was connected to your school, makes very little logical sense. So, your family name being connected to your school makes little sense.

I see it as why he would have the Yasuki name.

again where not going to agree.

So Im dropping it 

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2 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

I see it as why he would have the Yasuki name.

again where not going to agree.

So Im dropping it 

You see what as why he would have the Yasuki name? 

Basically you seem to be saying that the family benefit should be related to the school, when there already is a school-related trait benefit. Why separate these out then? And why does that then not apply when a PC takes the Different School advantage to go to a dojo of another clan?

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13 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

You see what as why he would have the Yasuki name? 

Basically you seem to be saying that the family benefit should be related to the school, when there already is a school-related trait benefit. Why separate these out then? And why does that then not apply when a PC takes the Different School advantage to go to a dojo of another clan?

I think I said I don't like the rule about Traits being attached to a family name.

since most of the samurai in a family are from different houses why would they all have the same traits.

The rule has never made any sense.

As to your Question im my game they wouldn't. 

Just because your parents are body builders you don't become one without lifting weights

Edited by tenchi2a

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4 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

I think I said I don't like the rule about Traits being attached to a family name.

since most of the samurai in a family are from different houses why would they all have the same traits.

The rule has never made any sense.

As to your Question im my game they wouldn't. 

 

They have about 10 years of growing up in a house that is incentivised to value the kind of traits that are important to their most likely training and role in society. I get your point, I just don’t think it’s a big deal. It’s a way of doing things that we had since 1st edition, and it kinda works if the amount of inter-family marriage is supposed to be low.

Regardless of what we feel about it though, the rules we have do not support family and school to be absolutely connected.

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8 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

They have about 10 years of growing up in a house that is incentivised to value the kind of traits that are important to their most likely training and role in society. I get your point, I just don’t think it’s a big deal. It’s a way of doing things that we had since 1st edition, and it kinda works if the amount of inter-family marriage is supposed to be low.

Regardless of what we feel about it though, the rules we have do not support family and school to be absolutely connected.

1. The have 8 years not 10

2. Two the rule on pg. 222 say the trait is developed at school not a home so they do support that the family trait and school trait are connected.

3. If that is the case, which it seems to be then the idea that the family name is connected to the school seems more logical then, a Hida Courtier spontaneously turing into the hulk. 

Edited by tenchi2a

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2 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

1. The have 8 years not 10

2. Two the rule on pg. 222 say the trait is developed at school not a home so they do support that the family trait and school trait are connected.

3. If that is the case, which it seems to be then the idea that the family name is connected to the school seems more logical then, a Hida Courtier spontaneously turing into the hulk. 

1) depends on the edition possibly, but according to 4th edition formal schooling starts usually between the ages of 10 and 12, with very talented children possibly starting earlier.

2) no, it says the “natural hereditary tendencies begin to emerge after a few months of schooling”. That doesn’t mean the schooling determines the trait, or it wouldn’t be “natural hereditary tendencies”. Hereditary means inherited from previous generations, which means family.

3) no, the fact that the far greater majority of members of a family attend the same school is as much tradition as anything else. But that means there are expectations and that whatever education children receive before their formal schooling starts, as well as the typical habits common throughout a family, will push children in a somewhat uniform direction. This supposedly results in uniformly dominant traits. Also, Str 3 is hardly “the Hulk”, just like any other trait of 3 is nothing exceptional. 

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I honestly don't like anything that pigeonholes characters by family. One of my loudest objections to the character creation process.  Took something that was a flaw in 1-4E, and turned it up a notch by not only linking it to a Trait, but also to two fixed skills.  At least my feedback about making it a choice of two traits (which was something I'd house-ruled into my 4th games) but they kept the two skills, which is almost worse, since skill points are at such a premium.  I use the Matsu/Ikoma comparison.  A Matsu Bushi will likely begin the game with 2 in Tactics, Command, and Fitness (3 is even possible).   The Ikoma Bushi can only get Tactics at 2 outside of taking an extra rank with a Disadvantage.  You literally put the Ikoma character in a capability hole right off the bat, which just further incentivizes the templated samey feel of characters.  Poor Ikoma Tsanuri and Kitsu Motso.   Doji Hoturi (:() knows more about accessorizing his outfit than he does about anything combat-related, lol.

Making every Hida Large or Brash just further reinforces the Factory Model Hida problem of character creation in this edition. 

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tenchi2a is making a mountain of a molehill, and one that's been extant for 4 prior editions at that, by misinterpreting the passage in E.E.

The proper english terms are Clan and Sept, not Clan and Family, but the use has been consistent since 1st ed through 4th to use "Family", a term which has a very different meaning from its colloquial use.

It's noted in 3rd ed (and IIRC 2nd) that the typical chain of fealty goes: Emperor • Clan Daimyō • Family Daimyō • Vassal family Daimyō, Provincial or City Daimyō • Local Daimyō, Gokenin, or Ward lord • Possibly, in a large enough ward, or local daimyo, a gokenin or other tenant lord.

One's family clearly indicates some hereditary measure, but there is mention (IIRC 2nd, but might be third) that changing families by adoption changes the family benefit - so it may be a bit of a supernatural effect - Rokugan as more magical that Nippon.

@TheVeteranSergeant

As to the skills, it's not  what I'd consider pidgeonholing. Pidgeonholing would be saying "Skills X and Y are off-limits." This is, quite simply, adding a couple skills that are normative for persons within that sept to have been taught in primary (ages 5-9), as taught by the sept (Family) school before attending the secondary (and mechanically named) Schools. (Note the capitalizations.)

We know canonically that the Family's Capital-S Schools are open to all of correct rank within the clan, with a few exceptions (Utaku Battle Maiden, Isawa Ishikendo).

We know education is formal prior to that, based upon the quote I think Tenchi is misinterpreting... and in cases of children whose parents are of different family names, which is dominant can be selected at that point. And that the Family School selected might not be the same one as the Family that the student is recognized into.

I'd say not knowing the family skills might be a good disad - Replace the two family skills with 1 skill of choice not already held, and in social circumstances, when this becomes clear, it imposes an adversity penalty on social roles as "Not really a ___"...

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It's still pigeonholing, no matter what you consider pigeonholing to be.

Quote

v. Assign to a particular category, typically an overly restrictive one.

n. a classification scheme referred which inadequately reflects the entities being sorted, or that is based on stereotypes.

 

Edited by TheVeteranSergeant

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7 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

1) depends on the edition possibly, but according to 4th edition formal schooling starts usually between the ages of 10 and 12, with very talented children possibly starting earlier.

4th on the same page said 8 year of age.

7 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

2) no, it says the “natural hereditary tendencies begin to emerge after a few months of schooling”. That doesn’t mean the schooling determines the trait, or it wouldn’t be “natural hereditary tendencies”. Hereditary means inherited from previous generations, which means family.

Here's were this idea brakes down quickly.

A Hida Samurai (M) marries a Shiba Samurai (F) in a political wedding. With the Hida being of higher Status.

Or alternatively the Shiba is higher status.

They have 2 kids.

Which Trait do they get. 

According to your view of the rule they would only get to chose the Hida Trait of +1 strength since that is the family they official server. or if the shiba name was taken they would only get +1 perception.

Both traits should be natural hereditary tendencies, but by your reading of the rule the political/social standing of the parent determinants which trait they get which make no logical sense.

As time rolls on their kids have kids, so which is the dominant trait, the one that has higher political/social standing or the other. remember natural hereditary cares nothing for political/social norms

7 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

3) no, the fact that the far greater majority of members of a family attend the same school is as much tradition as anything else. But that means there are expectations and that whatever education children receive before their formal schooling starts, as well as the typical habits common throughout a family, will push children in a somewhat uniform direction. This supposedly results in uniformly dominant traits. Also, Str 3 is hardly “the Hulk”, just like any other trait of 3 is nothing exceptional. 

Trait level three indicated a trait above the norm of two for untrained abilities.

Which can be reached by training.

So at around 9 years old it would be exceptional without training.

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11 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

1) 4th on the same page said 8 year of age.

2) Here's were this idea brakes down quickly.

A Hida Samurai (M) marries a Shiba Samurai (F) in a political wedding. With the Hida being of higher Status.

Or alternatively the Shiba is higher status.

They have 2 kids.

Which Trait do they get. 

According to your view of the rule they would only get to chose the Hida Trait of +1 strength since that is the family they official server. or if the shiba name was taken they would only get +1 perception.

Both traits should be natural hereditary tendencies, but by your reading of the rule the political/social standing of the parent determinants which trait they get which make no logical sense.

As time rolls on their kids have kids, so which is the dominant trait, the one that has higher political/social standing or the other. remember natural hereditary cares nothing for political/social norms

3) Trait level three indicated a trait above the norm of two for untrained abilities.

Which can be reached by training.

So at around 9 years old it would be exceptional without training.

1) P. 212 of EE says that formal schooling starts between 8 and 12. The Core book says that it usually starts between 10 and 12, though gifted children can start earlier. So, 8 is a possibility. It’s not the standard.

2) I’ve implied as much in an earlier post. However: 1) the assumption is that intra-familial marriages are far more common, at least for the Buke (PCs typically don’t belong to the Kuge), so it’s a matter of simplification in order to have a rule that can be described in a few words; 2) a little nurture might already apply due to upbringing up to the time the child joins a formal school; and 3) whether the logic breaks down or not, the rules state the benefit is hereditary. You can claim it shouldn’t be, logically speaking, but nonetheless by the RAW it is. 

3) 3 is above what is expected. That doesn’t make it exceptional, nor does that imply it can only be reached through formal training at a dojo. I don’t see any reason to assume all 10 year olds (and possibly a few younger kids) have uniform Traits at 2. In fact, if those are the expected average stats for adolescents (14+) and adults it doesn’t make a lot of sense that kids up to 6 years younger all have those traits across the board. It’s, again, a simplified rule of thumb rather than an exact replica of real life in game terms.

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With regards to the pigeonholing, I don’t see that we stand to gain much by arguing the definition. @TheVeteranSergeant feels it stereotypes families too much, @AK_Aramis feels that’s not so bad since it doesn’t take away anything, it’s purely a bonus. At least, that’s what I’m getting from the conversation.

For me, the salient points are a) that if the family bonus(es) would be wrapped up in the school choice as well it’d result in even more cookie-cutter characters and b) if they were left more open there’d be even less reason not to min-max them. I can live with it being what it is.

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It's not a "bonus" though. It's actually a very severe penalty. Characters have a finite number of Skill Points at character creation.  Those are 2 of the 8 core skill points (25%) and the maximum possible skill points is 13.  2 of which are restricted to no higher than Rank 1 (Q7 & 17), and 5 of which cannot duplicate (School skills).  Therefore a character has a maximum of five skills which can start at 2, and two of them are tied to the skills you get from your Family choice (the others being your Clan choice, potentially any skill rank you take with Question 13, and Q8 if you have one of those as a School Skill).  A Matsu Bushi can (will) have Tactics (Lion Clan), Fitness and Command (Matsu) at 2 plus potentially another skill at 2 from Question 13, a total of 4.  An Ikoma Bushi can have Tactics (Lion Clan) and... Question 13.  That literally gives the Matsu Bushi not only a better starting skill set for doing Bushi Things, but also puts him 8XP ahead of his Ikoma buddy in advancement since he has two extra skills at Rank 2 to start.

Edited by TheVeteranSergeant

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59 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

It's not a "bonus" though. It's actually a very severe penalty. Characters have a finite number of Skill Points at character creation.  Those are 2 of the 8 core skill points (25%) and the maximum possible skill points is 13.  2 of which are restricted to no higher than Rank 1 (Q7 & 17), and 5 of which cannot duplicate (School skills).  Therefore a character has a maximum of five skills which can start at 2, and two of them are tied to the skills you get from your Family choice (the others being your Clan choice, potentially any skill rank you take with Question 13, and Q8 if you have one of those as a School Skill).  A Matsu Bushi can (will) have Tactics (Lion Clan), Fitness and Command (Matsu) at 2 plus potentially another skill at 2 from Question 13, a total of 4.  An Ikoma Bushi can have Tactics (Lion Clan) and... Question 13.  That literally gives the Matsu Bushi not only a better starting skill set for doing Bushi Things, but also puts him 8XP ahead of his Ikoma buddy in advancement since he has two extra skills at Rank 2 to start.

And if you take them away, you’d get less Skill Points at character creation. Hence, bonus. Yes, some characters get more out of it than others - doesn’t change the fact that all characters get something out of it. 

I’d like to see chargen get improved myself, and a number of these bonus skill ranks are high on the list of things to improve, but they are bonuses.

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1 hour ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

The obvious solution being "Redistribute those points somewhere else in the process so that characters can have a reasonably equitable opportunity to use them" and not "Take them out of the process entirely."

 

Are we really limiting our thinking to this small of a box?

Given the breadth of the skills, 2 points being freely distributed is a HUGE power.

Still, if by the prescribed methods, any attribute exceeds 3 at start, the bonus is put into a ring less than 3, instead. Skills likewise. 

The low freedom at start is a bit of an issue - only one point is assignable, and that must be to a skill not from family nor school.

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47 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

Given the breadth of the skills, 2 points being freely distributed is a HUGE power.

Still, if by the prescribed methods, any attribute exceeds 3 at start, the bonus is put into a ring less than 3, instead. Skills likewise. 

The low freedom at start is a bit of an issue - only one point is assignable, and that must be to a skill not from family nor school.

I would say it's a little more then A bit of an issues, since its the main reason my players disliked the game.

5 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

1) P. 212 of EE says that formal schooling starts between 8 and 12. The Core book says that it usually starts between 10 and 12, though gifted children can start earlier. So, 8 is a possibility. It’s not the standard.

I can consied that this will very based on the type of schooling, But I do believe that it was eluded to that 8 was the average.

Quote

2) I’ve implied as much in an earlier post. However: 1) the assumption is that intra-familial marriages are far more common, at least for the Buke (PCs typically don’t belong to the Kuge), so it’s a matter of simplification in order to have a rule that can be described in a few words; 2) a little nurture might already apply due to upbringing up to the time the child joins a formal school; and 3) whether the logic breaks down or not, the rules state the benefit is hereditary. You can claim it shouldn’t be, logically speaking, but nonetheless by the RAW it is. 

You missed the Natural part of natural hereditary.

This goes back to the idea that the family trait is a genetic trait.

and since very few Buke can claim a blood line relation to the Kuge family of Hida. they will in general not always have strength as a genetic trait.

Add to this that even fewer Hida then most other families have ties to even the second generation Hida's due to things like "20 goblin winters". and you have deluded this genetic pool even more.

And for another example of swear to family name determining the Trait. Look at The Togashi Order's +1 Reflexes. No one from that school is related to Togashi yet they all have that trait. look at all the spider clan families. They all have Family traits but few if any are related. All monks begin with a void of 3 is that genetic.

To me you would not go to the Hida school if you did not have the ability to master the curriculum. So most Buke with a genetic disposition to be strong drift towards Hida service, while samurai that are more agile will work as Hiruma scouts. This is were I get the idea that the A samurai serves the clan were his skills and attributes are needed and would get the family trait of the family he serves. 

Quote

3) 3 is above what is expected. That doesn’t make it exceptional, nor does that imply it can only be reached through formal training at a dojo. I don’t see any reason to assume all 10 year olds (and possibly a few younger kids) have uniform Traits at 2. In fact, if those are the expected average stats for adolescents (14+) and adults it doesn’t make a lot of sense that kids up to 6 years younger all have those traits across the board. It’s, again, a simplified rule of thumb rather than an exact replica of real life in game terms.

This is touched on in the Trait write-up at the front of the book. without training or a disposition towards that trait will start the game with 2 in the trait.

Edited by tenchi2a

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7 hours ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

The obvious solution being "Redistribute those points somewhere else in the process so that characters can have a reasonably equitable opportunity to use them" and not "Take them out of the process entirely."

 

Are we really limiting our thinking to this small of a box?

I did not suggest taking them out entirely. I said that if you take them out it lessens the character, since that shows it’s a bonus

The updates have introduced a couple of tiers of starting xp to be used freely. I’m not entirely opposed to that idea, though character advancement is already way too fast for my liking.

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I would prefer that the character creation ends up with all the bushi having a chance to have the same effective level of xp out of character creation. Since some bushi can start with rank 2 in 3 skills (and rank 1 in 3-5 others not counting heritage table), it would be nice if other characters had the option to shuffle skills (perhaps in exchange for honor or glory, since they are going against their clan/family/school values).

I'd also prefer that rank 2 remain the skill limit (some of the heritage table results can get you up to a 3) for character creation. The heritage table is a tough to balance properly, regardless.

I don't really have a problem with the two rank 1 skills that are available in exchange for honor or glory at character creation for going against type.

I also don't have a problem with the Hida Defender not having any good way to get Courtesy at rank 2 at character creation, as long as their total xp remains the same.

It's also possible that the less efficient skill allocations are meant to be balanced by more efficient school abilities, but I think this is unlikely.

Edit: Unrelated to the rest of my comments, there's a bit of discussion about whether hereditary traits make sense. In the real world, they wouldn't, but in Rokugan they do. Whether that's the influence of the Kami, or just part of the world flavor is up to you, but that's the setting.

Edited by ubik2

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5 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

1) I can consied that this will very based on the type of schooling, But I do believe that it was eluded to that 8 was the average.

2) You missed the Natural part of natural hereditary.

This goes back to the idea that the family trait is a genetic trait.

and since very few Buke can claim a blood line relation to the Kuge family of Hida. they will in general not always have strength as a genetic trait.

Add to this that even fewer Hida then most other families have ties to even the second generation Hida's due to things like "20 goblin winters". and you have deluded this genetic pool even more.

And for another example of swear to family name determining the Trait. Look at The Togashi Order's +1 Reflexes. No one from that school is related to Togashi yet they all have that trait. look at all the spider clan families. They all have Family traits but few if any are related. All monks begin with a void of 3 is that genetic.

To me you would not go to the Hida school if you did not have the ability to master the curriculum. So most Buke with a genetic disposition to be strong drift towards Hida service, while samurai that are more agile will work as Hiruma scouts. This is were I get the idea that the A samurai serves the clan were his skills and attributes are needed and would get the family trait of the family he serves. 

3) This is touched on in the Trait write-up at the front of the book. without training or a disposition towards that trait will start the game with 2 in the trait.

1) since the rules (in 4th edition anyway) say formal schooling starts between 8 and 12 and usually between 10 and 12, I find it really unlikely the average would be 8. Mathematically that isn’t possible.

2) the family trait doesn’t have to be (and as you say, in many cases can’t be) the result of a bloodline to a Kami. That doesn’t mean certain predispositions can’t be bred into families that supposedly tend to marry predominantly within the family. Again, it’s a simplification. It’s not supposed to be scientifically accurate. And again, you are free to have your ideas about how things should be. There’s nonetheless still nothing in the rules that supports the notion that samurai as a rule end up in the family that corresponds with their school. It’s the other way around: by tradition, most will end up in a school that corresponds with their family. I can understand that @suburbaknght doesn’t like seeing a lot of examples to the contrary, but I still expect the far greater majority of official NPCs this edition to “keep it in the family” when it comes to their schooling and PCs being exceptional is neither surprising nor problematic to me.

3) yes, because that’s what the simplification resulted in. Still doesn’t make a trait of 3 exceptional, in a system where the traits vary between 2 and 10 like 4th did.

Edited by nameless ronin

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11 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

since most of the samurai in a family are from different houses why would they all have the same traits.

The rule has never made any sense.

L5R on a not entirely subtle level revolves around the insinuation of name magic of various ways into everything that exists. Nothing created Fear, Desire, and Regret by acknowledging its own existence where before there was none. The Sun and Moon named each and every thing but The Nothing. The oni of Jigoku draw power from the names of mortals, while species like the Nezumi have ways to twist or erase one's Name. The celestially mandated line of Hantei, ruling child of the sun & moon, named the clans and families, defined their official duties, and though few contemplate such in setting, in context it's hard to consider mere bureaucracy. Fortunes are raised from mortal status by the same process, and the celestial heavens acknowledge every emperor's choices.

The undercurrent of the power of names and words ties in nicely with the tenet of Chugo, and lends weight to the Rokugani notion of inheriting authority on a subject through ancestry. Preposterous ideas from our perspective, but more meaningful in setting.

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Quote

The undercurrent of the power of names and words ties in nicely with the tenet of Chugo, and lends weight to the Rokugani notion of inheriting authority on a subject through ancestry. Preposterous ideas from our perspective, but more meaningful in setting.

Meaningful... suddenly, and inexplicably, in this edition only. In the previous 20 years of L5R, this concept never existed.  It's one thing if the Kitsu bloodline ties into an ability to speak to the ancestors through the power of kami-magic and plot device.  The Doji inheriting an elite fashion sense is just... silly. And the mechanical penalty is that characters end up being excessively optimized for one path.  Especially since Skill and Trait points in character creation are much more valuable than the ones you get via XP.   If my characters starts at 3/3/2/1/1 with four skills at 2 (an average Matsu Commander) and yours starts at 3/2/2/2/1 with only 2 skills at 2 (entirely possible for a lot of Family/School combinations), my guy will get to 3/3/2/2/2 and four skills at Rank 2 for a mere 12 XP (6+6) while your character will "catch up" for 23 XP  (6+9+4+4). 

 

Quote

if you take them out it lessens the character, since that shows it’s a

bonus

That just shows a deficiency in the character creation process.  It's a design flaw. Nothing more, nothing less.  At no point is it a "bonus" because for the vast majority of characters, it actually leaves them at a disadvantage compared to the Elite Few whose "Bonus" skills actually line up with the character creation process in an advantageous way.  Stop using the word "bonus," please. It's the most egregiously misleading term possible because it's literally not a bonus for the overwhelming majority of possible character types.  If you want to call them "free" then fine.  But that's putting lipstick on a pig.  The Matsu's "free" skills are clearly better than the Ikoma's for being a bushi, by a full 8XP, while the Ikoma, even as a bard, isn't significantly better at being a courtier than the Matsu, because all he's good at is Composition and Peformance, rather than Courtesy or Command.  I could literally make a Matsu Commander with Command 2 and Courtesy 2 (the principle skills in Social intrigues for the Persuade action), and then he's still got Tactics 2 and Fitness 2, so is both better at being a bushi and equally talented at being a courtier as an Ikoma bard.  Ikoma just gets to suck it, unless we start a slam poetry contest, at which point I guess my Matsu bushi must gracefully admit to being bested.

Edited by TheVeteranSergeant

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