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suburbaknght

Cross-Family Training

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In oL5R, most samurai were members of the same family as their school, i.e. an Agasha-trained shugenja was usually an Agasha, an Ide-trained Courtier was usually an Ide, etc.  There were some notable exceptions, i.e. a number of Doji seemed to be trained as Kakita bushi, there were elemental masters trained in the Isawa school who came from all the Phoenix families, but by and large things lined up.

What was never explained was why this happened.  My interpretation was that a samurai didn't take their family name until their gempukku ceremony, by which point someone who was trained in another family's school would usually join that family, i.e. an Agasha born without the gift to speak to the kami and given to the Mirumoto for training as a bushi would likely be adopted into the Mirumoto.  Note that this is actually a common practice in historical Japan - many family businesses that wanted to turn the business over to a non-family member would adopt or marry-in the new head.  Still, this was never officially described in oL5R and as such is purely my own head cannon.

That said, nL5R seems to be going out of their way to show cross-family training.  The first non-core fiction introduced a Mirumoto-trained Kitsuki and the newest cards have introduced an Agasha Ruby Champion who is a bushi rather than a shugenja.

How do you feel about this?  Do you like the consistency of families and schools or do you want to see more diversity?

I always found the sharing of family secrets - and these are secrets - so readily to be an incongruity, even within the same clan.  It was ties of family that made someone trustworthy to receive these secrets and as such I get annoyed when I see an excess of characters with non-family Schools (this isn't even getting into the cross-clan school issues).  On top of that, in most of the RPG campaigns I've played in it seems  these type of cross-family trained characters are becoming the norm, particularly with characters from shugenja families trained in non-shugenja schools and vice-versa.  I'm sure this is me being an old man yelling at the darn kids to get off my lawn, but it still prickles me.  What are your thoughts?

Edited by suburbaknght

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 In the fluff it's more common than in the card game, because the card game wants you to associate mirumoto with bushi and agasha with shugenja. In the rpg, where you can explore the world much more closely than art and flavor text, it's more common an Agasha will be trained at a Niten school, because Shugenja aren't the most common even in a Shugenja family. Those Agasha still inherit their father's lands, still serve as guards and magistrates etc in Agasha provinces. It's just more likely that if a Dragon is also a Shugenja he's a member of that family because shugenja blood runs strong in the Agasha. And since the Mirumoto don't have enough shugenja to bother with making a school and techniques, they just arrange for their children to train among the Agasha.

 And even cross clan training isn't all that rare, the Crane especially like to trade a spot in their schools for favors. Not only do they get favors, but get to cultivate an ally in another clan.

Still, enough members of those families follow their family's calling for it to be the most common training among members of that family (outside of shugenja, again they're a fraction of a clan's population, even the smaller shugenja families they're probably not even 50%).
 

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This has always been the case in the RPG and CCG.  Not sure where you see it as new.  Some clans seemed a little homogeneous just by happenstance, but where you think characters like Ikoma Tsanuri or Kitsu Motso went to bushi school? And all the Otaku males went to the Shinjo school originally in 1st Edition. Togashi Hoshi was a Mirumoto-trained bushi. Yogo Asami was a Shosuro-trained assassin. Etc.  The idea of cross-family trained characters was never strange.  Sure, you probably didn't see too many female Otaku trained in the Moto school, but even Matsu trained in the Akodo schools weren't unheard of for NPCs.

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The name chosen at gempukku is not the family name. The samurai either chooses to keep his given name or to take another with some personal significance. I don’t recall a tradition of choosing to stay with your birth family or getting adopted into another one at gempukku, and character creation doesn’t suggest doing so either.

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Wile all the above is great information that I agree with, I figured I would dive a little deeper. :ph34r:

As the post above show there are many cases of cross-family schooling, but in most cases these seem to be the exception not the rule and here are some reasons why.

1. The canon story was crated to support the CCG not the RPG. This leads to a strange one dimensional look for the story.

2. The cards in a CCG need to be easy to identify. When playing a card game players need to be able to see that's a shugenja to keep from holding up the game. So the designers used families names to help players know, "Ah that's a Isawa so its a shugenja", or "That's a Kakita so its a courtier or duelist. 

3. The CCG focuses on the leaders of armies/families. When you play the character cards you are putting out are normal major generals or power players among the clan such Clan Daimyo, Famliy Daimyo, Clan commanders, etc.

 

Now that all said, lets look at Clan/Family structure in Rokugan.

So from what I will call semi-canon, due to the changing nature of the story its twenty plus years.

What we think of as a family in western society can not be applied to Rokugan.

to describe a rokugan family I will start at the bottom and move up.

1. The samurai is born into his family. This can be 

a) a low ranking Buke family, these are the low ranking samurai families that serve a Kuge family. These make up the bulk of the samurai in Rokugan.

b) a mid ranking Buke family, these are the families of most minor clans and vassal families. only the head of a Minor clan is a Kuge 

c) a high ranking Kuge family, these are the families of the clan founders (Shiba, Akodo, Doji, etc) or the first men/women to swear fealty to them. (Isawa,Kakita,Mirumoto,Otaku,etc)

This is also the rank of the Minor clan head and Imperial servants (Chancellor, Voice, Gem Champions, etc.)

 

2. Upon reaching training age a samurai, around five I believe.

a) Interns with a courtier or Attends a courtier dojo depending on the clan.

b) Attends a Bushi dojo

c) Attends a shugenja if he has the gift.

d) Be recruited by another organization. (Ninja, etc) 

The school/internship will depend on 

a) family allegiance

b) favors that can be used

c) unusual births, such as samurai with the gift being born to a Shiba.

Add to this that some Minor clans have long standing agreements with Major clans for training. (Dragonfly-Shiba, Hare-Kitsu,etc)

 

3. Gempukku.

Upon reaching the age of 16-18. (This changes from edition to edition) The samurai swears loyalty to their lord.

Who they swears loyalty to depends on many things.

a) Is his/her a Kuge or a Buke.

b) What family trained them.

c) Why did that family train them.

If the child comes from a Kuge line the will always take the name of their family. This includes Minor clan heirs

Samurai trained under agreement. (Dragonfly-Shiba, Hare-Kitsu,etc) will normally take the Minor clan family name.

As for the Buke they will normally take the family name of the family that provided the training.

At most schools/dojos this has been decide when the child enrolled as part of the requirements to enter the school.

Now to clarify, The family trait in the game, to me has more to due with their life from around 5-10 years of age so anything picked up before this would be lost in character creation.

So the game makes no attempt to count for what family the child was born into.

Well this is how I see it due with it as you will.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

The name chosen at gempukku is not the family name. The samurai either chooses to keep his given name or to take another with some personal significance. I don’t recall a tradition of choosing to stay with your birth family or getting adopted into another one at gempukku, and character creation doesn’t suggest doing so either.

The problem here is its not an adoption.

The family name you carry normally has nothing to due with your birth family.

Being a Shiba, Akodo, Doji, Isawa, Kakita, Mirumoto, Otaku,etc does not mean you are a blood relative to the family most of the time.

It just means that you or your ancestors before you have chosen to server that family, and been granted the right to use their name.

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1 minute ago, tenchi2a said:

The problem here is its not an adoption.

The family name you carry normally has nothing to due with your birth family.

Being a Shiba, Akodo, Doji, Isawa, Kakita, Mirumoto, Otaku,etc does not mean you are a blood relative to the family most of the time.

It just means that you or your ancestors before you have chosen to server that family, and been granted the right to use their name.

And typically you will respect your ancestors and abide by their choice, regardless of where you received your schooling. In character creation, you choose clan, family and school in that order and nothing indicates that if you choose a school from another family that means you’re not following tradition.

Ancestors matter. Family matters. You don’t change the name that links you to them lightly.

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40 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

And typically you will respect your ancestors and abide by their choice, regardless of where you received your schooling. In character creation, you choose clan, family and school in that order and nothing indicates that if you choose a school from another family that means you’re not following tradition.

Ancestors matter. Family matters. You don’t change the name that links you to them lightly.

Again you are looking at this from the wrong way.

You have this believe that you are born Shiba Bob. This is not true you are born Bob that's it. You have no blood connection to the Shiba family.

The only time this changes in when you are born into a Kuge family. Then you have a blood tie to the name so you are Shiba Bob

It is an honor to be allowed to use a great houses name. No family would refuse.

Two you may want to reread the section on Clan Families. nowhere in there does it state this was your birth family. Just that this is the family you are a member of.

A samurai's honor comes from serving the Emperor.

He does so through his Clan. to serve in any family within that Clan is a great honor for him and his ancestors.

The idea that one's family is more imported then serving the Emperor is what is dishonorable.

Add to this that if I am a Kitsu that is more imported to me then serving as an Akodo and you are disrespecting a Kami.

That is why it is more imported to serve the Emperor then to worry about what family you serve under.

Edit: Now this doesn't extend to leaving ones Clan, which is seen as a great dishonor outside of marriage or political reasons (Adoption of a clan ronin, Adoption due to you clans destruction)

some examples:

1. Lets say your whole family till you has not had the gift to commune with the Kami. But you are born with that gift.

You don't say I'm going to ignore my gift because my whole family has served the Shiba.

Your family would be thrilled that you have been excepted into the Isawa school and would be honored that you are given the right to use there name.

 

2. Reverse happens and your mother and father are both shugenja.

You are born without the gift. But show a keen perception and skill in martial matters.

You are granted the right to train at the Shiba dojo.

You are not going to say "nope my family are all shugenja, so if I can't be I'll do nothing".

You have a chance to serve you clan as a Shiba which is a great honor.

You family my be disappointed that you do not have the gift, but will be overjoyed that you are serving the clan.

 

Edited by tenchi2a

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44 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

Again you are looking at this from the wrong way.

You have this believe that you are born Shiba Bob. This is not true you are born Bob that's it. You have no blood connection to the Shiba family.

The only time this changes in when you are born into a Kuge family. Then you have a blood tie to the name so you are Shiba Bob

It is an honor to be allowed to use a great houses name. No family would refuse.

Two you may want to reread the section on Clan Families. nowhere in there does it state this was your birth family. Just that this is the family you are a member of.

A samurai's honor comes from serving the Emperor.

He does so through his Clan. to serve in any family within that Clan is a great honor for him and his ancestors.

The idea that one's family is more imported then serving the Emperor is what is dishonorable.

Add to this that if I am a Kitsu that is more imported to me then serving as an Akodo and you are disrespecting a Kami.

That is why it is more imported to serve the Emperor then to worry about what family you serve under.

Edit: Now this doesn't extend to leaving ones Clan, which is seen as a great dishonor outside of marriage or political reasons (Adoption of a clan ronin, Adoption due to you clans destruction)

some examples:

1. Lets say your whole family till you has not had the gift to commune with the Kami. But you are born with that gift.

You don't say I'm going to ignore my gift because my whole family has served the Shiba.

Your family would be thrilled that you have been excepted into the Isawa school and would be honored that you are given the right to use there name.

 

2. Reverse happens and your mother and father are both shugenja.

You are born without the gift. But show a keen perception and skill in martial matters.

You are granted the right to train at the Shiba dojo.

You are not going to say "nope my family are all shugenja, so if I can't be I'll do nothing".

You have a chance to serve you clan as a Shiba which is a great honor.

You family my be disappointed that you do not have the gift, but will be overjoyed that you are serving the clan.

 

Ok, let’s say I’m Bob. My parents are Isawa, but I trained at a Shiba dojo. Does my parents’ daimyo have no use for my service? In order to be able to serve the clan, I’m supposed to swear loyalty to a Shiba daimyo? Why is that, especially since chances are I’ll be protecting shugenja and courtiers all my life from gempukku to retirement, and apparently none of them are members of my family? And the Isawa rule the clan, the Clan Champion comes from the Shiba, yet none of them can have an Asako-trained courtier serve them honorably? Or look at the Toritaka Exorcists. Are they all really Kuni Exorcists?

As for reading, can you point me to anything, anything at all from any edition, that indicates (Buke) samurai customarily swear loyalty to a daimyo from a family corresponding with the dojo they studied at? Because the coan chapter doesn’t say a lot of things, including anything about your lord being determined for you by your choice of school. Given the pages upon pages of setting lore across the core book and multiple sourcebooks, I would expect something like that to show up somewhere.

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8 hours ago, suburbaknght said:

How do you feel about this?  Do you like the consistency of families and schools or do you want to see more diversity?

Personally I don't really care in as much a I prefer that societal mores are either consistent and/or based in RW examples. As it is now it does seem more consistent with the inspiration sources for Rokugan which is a plus IMHO.

Quote

I always found the sharing of family secrets - and these are secrets - so readily to be an incongruity, even within the same clan.  It was ties of family that made someone trustworthy to receive these secrets and as such I get annoyed when I see an excess of characters with non-family Schools (this isn't even getting into the cross-clan school issues). 

Are you familiar with the Galton-Watson process? Using the surname as a measure of kinship is patently ridiculous in a Rokugan that makes Vietnam and China look to be brimming with different surnames (hint: They aren't) At best Rokugani family names are akin to the Uji as opposed to the Myōji.

Ultimately an Akodo sensei might find some closely related Kitsu nephew more trustworthy than some two-provinces-over Akodo he has never seen before.

Quote

On top of that, in most of the RPG campaigns I've played in it seems  these type of cross-family trained characters are becoming the norm, particularly with characters from shugenja families trained in non-shugenja schools and vice-versa.  I'm sure this is me being an old man yelling at the darn kids to get off my lawn, but it still prickles me.  What are your thoughts?

Well, when the lore claims that only one in one samurai as the gift of the shugenja, either the shugenja families are tiny or those born without the gift are going to have to get their trainng somewhere. Now, I'm of the opinion that at the size most Rokugani families seem to be they should have schools/paths/whatever you want to call them to cover all the societal roles they are supposed perform as functional polities, but that's not what L5R lore as depicted until now. So we have guys like Kitsu Motso, Dejiko and Osen, Kuni Sensin, Moshi Kalani, Kitsune Ryukan, etc.

You can't really fault the players for using the tools they have to represent what they see in the fiction.

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1 hour ago, nameless ronin said:

Ok, let’s say I’m Bob. My parents are Isawa, but I trained at a Shiba dojo. Does my parents’ daimyo have no use for my service? In order to be able to serve the clan, I’m supposed to swear loyalty to a Shiba daimyo? Why is that, especially since chances are I’ll be protecting shugenja and courtiers all my life from gempukku to retirement, and apparently none of them are members of my family? And the Isawa rule the clan, the Clan Champion comes from the Shiba, yet none of them can have an Asako-trained courtier serve them honorably? Or look at the Toritaka Exorcists. Are they all really Kuni Exorcists?

This is because you server at the behest of the Shiba daimyo. 

The Isawa daimyo doesn't determine wither you serve on border duty, as a yojimbo, or with one of the legions etc. The Shiba daimyo does.

To better explain this we have to look at what a name means so we will use my characters family as an example.

Relationship :    Public name(given name)               Family name               Full formal name short/long form

Father:                    Shiba Mitsuo (Tomoya)                     Taira Mitsuo                  Shiba Mitsuo of house Taira/ Taira Mitsuo in service to house Shiba

Mother:                  Shiba Ayame (Saeko)                         Taira Ayame                  Shiba Ayame of house Taira/ Taira Ayame in service to house Shiba

Sister:                      Isawa Miu (Namie)                             Taira Miu                       Isawa Miu of house Taira/ Taira Miu in service to house Isawa

Brother:                  Shiba Hitoshi (Daisuke)                     Taira Hitoshi                 Shiba Hitoshi  of house Taira/ Taira Hitoshi  in service to house Shiba

Me:                          Shiba Ryu (Renzo)                               Taira Ryu                       Shiba Ryu of house Taira/ Taira Ryu in service to house Shiba

 

So to anyone outside Clan Phoenix  I am Shiba Ryu.

To those within my Clan I am either Shiba Ryu or Taira Ryu depending on how well they know me or my family.

To my childhood friends and family members I am Taira Renzo or just Renzo.

 

Quote

As for reading, can you point me to anything, anything at all from any edition, that indicates (Buke) samurai customarily swear loyalty to a daimyo from a family corresponding with the dojo they studied at? Because the coan chapter doesn’t say a lot of things, including anything about your lord being determined for you by your choice of school. Given the pages upon pages of setting lore across the core book and multiple sourcebooks, I would expect something like that to show up somewhere.

As for where to find this. thats hard to explain since it has gone through may incarnations over the 20+ years of the game.

it can be found in bits and pieces through out the books though all the editions but you can start with pg 72 of Emerald Empire.

Edited by tenchi2a

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Now to explain Isawa Miu.

My father is a low ranking border guard in the Shiba legions. 

He has nether the clout or the favors available to get Miu in to the Isawa school as a Shiba.

And Miu is gifted with the fire Kami so she had no chance of joining the Shiba Illusionists.

So she had to swear fealty to the Isawa to train.

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1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

This is because you server at the behest of the Shiba daimyo. 

The Isawa daimyo doesn't determine wither you serve on border duty, as a yojimbo, or with one of the legions etc. The Shiba daimyo does.

To better explain this we have to look at what a name means so we will use my characters family as an example.

Relationship :    Public name(given name)               Family name               Full formal name short/long form

Father:                    Shiba Mitsuo (Tomoya)                     Taira Mitsuo                  Shiba Mitsuo of house Taira/ Taira Mitsuo in service to house Shiba

Mother:                  Shiba Ayame (Saeko)                         Taira Ayame                  Shiba Ayame of house Taira/ Taira Ayame in service to house Shiba

Sister:                      Isawa Miu (Namie)                             Taira Miu                       Isawa Miu of house Taira/ Taira Miu in service to house Isawa

Brother:                  Shiba Hitoshi (Daisuke)                     Taira Hitoshi                 Shiba Hitoshi  of house Taira/ Taira Hitoshi  in service to house Shiba

Me:                          Shiba Ryu (Renzo)                               Taira Ryu                       Shiba Ryu of house Taira/ Taira Ryu in service to house Shiba

 

So to anyone outside Clan Phoenix  I am Shiba Ryu.

To those within my Clan I am either Shiba Ryu or Taira Ryu depending on how well they know me or my family.

To my childhood friends and family members I am Taira Renzo or just Renzo.

 

As for where to find this. thats hard to explain since it has gone through may incarnations over the 20+ years of the game.

it can be found in bits and pieces through out the books though all the editions but you can start with pg 72 of Emerald Empire.

P. 72 of Emerald Empire mentions swearing fealty to your lord, but that’s not a point of contention. It says nothing about having to swear to another lord than your parents’ in order to attend a different family’s dojo. Your examples explain how names work, particularly if you are a member of a vassal family, but again don’t say anything about the dojo of your schooling requiring you to swear fealty to anyone in particular.

You’re basically saying Bob doesn’t take his orders from lord Isawa because he takes them from lord Shiba, but that isn’t the question. The question is why Bob takes his orders from lord Shiba, even though his parents take theirs from lord Isawa. Now the answer to that, according to you, is that he studied at lord Shiba’s dojo - full stop. And that is not supported by anything I can find in any rulebook. It’s certainly something that seems plausible in specific circumstances, but that doesn’t make it the norm, never mind the rule.

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42 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

P. 72 of Emerald Empire mentions swearing fealty to your lord, but that’s not a point of contention. It says nothing about having to swear to another lord than your parents’ in order to attend a different family’s dojo. Your examples explain how names work, particularly if you are a member of a vassal family, but again don’t say anything about the dojo of your schooling requiring you to swear fealty to anyone in particular.

You’re basically saying Bob doesn’t take his orders from lord Isawa because he takes them from lord Shiba, but that isn’t the question. The question is why Bob takes his orders from lord Shiba, even though his parents take theirs from lord Isawa. Now the answer to that, according to you, is that he studied at lord Shiba’s dojo - full stop. And that is not supported by anything I can find in any rulebook. It’s certainly something that seems plausible in specific circumstances, but that doesn’t make it the norm, never mind the rule.

As I said P. 72 of Emerald Empire is a start not everything. 

The information had been touched on here and there through out the books including the "way of series", "secrets of series", The different versions of the Emerald Empire books, etc. 

Most of what I have here is what has been pieced together from these sources and discussions on the old forums with the writes.

The game it's self gives all the information you need. Can you find one card from the CCG or one NPC from the RPG that is not a member of a Kuge house that school is different then their name.

The reason this is not fleshed out in one place is due to lack of interest in naming conventions by player. How many players do you know how are going to care about all of this. 

Now as to the game, as has been said many times this is for all purposes fluff. The rules in no way have to make any references to this mechanically.

And just to be clear, I'm not here to tell you how to run your game, as your last sentences seems to imply.  

Edited by tenchi2a

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13 hours ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

This has always been the case in the RPG and CCG.  Not sure where you see it as new.  Some clans seemed a little homogeneous just by happenstance, but where you think characters like Ikoma Tsanuri or Kitsu Motso went to bushi school? And all the Otaku males went to the Shinjo school originally in 1st Edition. Togashi Hoshi was a Mirumoto-trained bushi. Yogo Asami was a Shosuro-trained assassin. Etc.  The idea of cross-family trained characters was never strange.  Sure, you probably didn't see too many female Otaku trained in the Moto school, but even Matsu trained in the Akodo schools weren't unheard of for NPCs.

I'd agree with you here.

Not having the experience with old editions, but this doesn't seem all that weird to me.

  • The different clans are practically separate allied nations, and need to be 'self-sufficient' in any given field.
  • Whilst, yes, a given family may have (will have) a recognised speciality, any given major family has territories to rule, borders to guard and shrines to maintain. Any major family will therefore want some courtiers and bushi, even if they're famous as monks or shujenga, unless they can afford to have a subsidiary family 'run the mundane stuff for them' (which as I understand it is pretty much what the Dragons' original ruling family do).
  • Studying at a different school within your clan is not going to be 'the norm' but I don't see it needs too much explanation; if a Kakita feels a calling to become a shujenga (and the kami could be quite insistant if they really want you to) then somewhere in Crane lands there'll be a shujenga school to attend, which would be the natural first choice.
  •  What I don't reject as an option but would demand a pretty good narrative explanation for is someone studying at an out-of-clan school. This is the sort of thing that I'd imagine happening to someone who was a totally-not-an-exchanged-hostage, or someone with substantial issues with their immediate family or clan as a whole, and I'd expect to see that reflected elsewhere in their twenty questions choices.

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24 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Kitsu Dejiko, Matsu Berserker

Shosuro Higatsuku, Bayushi Courtier

Kakita Munemori, Doji Courtier

Shosuro Higatsuku, Bayushi Courtier: The write-up  and story seem to imply he was self trained. I would say the school ranks are to imply the equivalents to what he learned.

Kakita Munemori, Doji Courtier :Munemori's father called in many favors so Munemori might enter Kakita Yoshi's tutelage

Kitsu Dejiko, Matsu Berserker: I'll give you this one, but as you say one doesn't equal the norm.

Edited by tenchi2a

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I'm going to end this right now. 

The rules don't make any requirements about it one way or the other.

The only way this would ever be resolved is if the AEG story writes came here and told us how they envision it, and that's not going to happen.

So play it the way you want and I'll play it the way I want. 

That was the whole point of "Rokugan your way" in the first place ;)

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4 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

The rules don't make any requirements about it one way or the other.

Well, yes. That’s the exact point I made. :P If there are no requirements to swear fealty in order to join a dojo, then why assume it’s the norm to do so?

And of course you should play the way you want to. More power to you. I was just pointing out, as others have as well, that cross-family training was not as exceptional as implied by the first post of the thread.

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Several schools have been implicated as being open to outside-the-clan samurai as a service to the Empire - most notably the Kitsuki Magistrate and Kitsuki Investigator schools. ISTR a mention of only the first few ranks... 2 or 3.

The Different School Advantage: 2E PG makes it clear that it's a fairly expensive trade of favors and/or currency. 

2E says:
Different School (3 Points)
This character did not go to his clan's bushi or shugenja school. but was instead an "exchange student" at another clan's school. This requires the prospective student's family to cash in a number of favors. and may have some effect on others' perception of him: a Crab bushi who studied at the Kakita School would almost certainly be mocked by his cousins. This Advantage may only be taken once.

3E says:
DIFFERENT SCHOOL [INHERENT) (3 POINTS)

You were trained in another clan's school, perhaps as part of a treaty or a friendly exchange between allies. After you select your clan and family, you may select a standard bushi. courtier. or shugenja school from any other clan as your school.

This makes it pretty broad... It was pretty inexpensive, at only 3 points. And gives a -1 on Multiple Schools if the second is one's own clan.

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I found the mecahnical answer to the family name question.

Pg. 220 of Emerald Empire

Family Benefit: The natural hereditary tendencies of a students begin to emerge after the first few months of rigorous conditioning an and instruction (whether social, physical, or artistic) they receive in their school.

So I'm not positive, but to me this would indicate that the family trait you get is associated with the school not your birth family.

 

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1 hour ago, AK_Aramis said:

Several schools have been implicated as being open to outside-the-clan samurai as a service to the Empire - most notably the Kitsuki Magistrate and Kitsuki Investigator schools. ISTR a mention of only the first few ranks... 2 or 3.

The Different School Advantage: 2E PG makes it clear that it's a fairly expensive trade of favors and/or currency. 

2E says:
Different School (3 Points)
This character did not go to his clan's bushi or shugenja school. but was instead an "exchange student" at another clan's school. This requires the prospective student's family to cash in a number of favors. and may have some effect on others' perception of him: a Crab bushi who studied at the Kakita School would almost certainly be mocked by his cousins. This Advantage may only be taken once.

3E says:
DIFFERENT SCHOOL [INHERENT) (3 POINTS)

You were trained in another clan's school, perhaps as part of a treaty or a friendly exchange between allies. After you select your clan and family, you may select a standard bushi. courtier. or shugenja school from any other clan as your school.

This makes it pretty broad... It was pretty inexpensive, at only 3 points. And gives a -1 on Multiple Schools if the second is one's own clan.

4E says

Different School [Social] (5 Points)

Your family sacrificed considerable resources and favors in order to sponsor your entrance into the School of another Clan. When creating your character, you may select a School of a different Clan to attend. You are still a member of your own Clan, however, creating a potential conflict between your loyalty to your sensei and your loyalty to your lord and family.

Seem they fixed the cheap cost issues in 4th.

Multiple Schools is even worst costing 10 points in 4th.

Edited by tenchi2a

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2 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

I found the mecahnical answer to the family name question.

Pg. 220 of Emerald Empire

Family Benefit: The natural hereditary tendencies of a students begin to emerge after the first few months of rigorous conditioning an and instruction (whether social, physical, or artistic) they receive in their school.

So I'm not positive, but to me this would indicate that the family trait you get is associated with the school not your birth family.

 

If they’re “natural, hereditary tendencies” it’s a case of nature, not nurture. Hard training and being pushed will show you what your talents are, it’s not about instilling anything. Also, your school already gives you  a specific trait based on your training, as well as a bunch of skills.

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56 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

If they’re “natural, hereditary tendencies” it’s a case of nature, not nurture. Hard training and being pushed will show you what your talents are, it’s not about instilling anything. Also, your school already gives you  a specific trait based on your training, as well as a bunch of skills.

 first few months of rigorous conditioning an and instruction (whether social, physical, or artistic) they receive in their school.

You would have to be stretching it pretty far to tell me that 

That a Hida attending the Yasuki Courtier school is going to develop +1 strength social instruction

Or lets say it's a Hiruma at the Yasuki Courtier school, yeah that rigorous social instruction is really going to improve his Agility.

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Now let me say that I've never like the idea that families have attached traits since the beginning.

I have always thought that the families should have an attached advantage and disadvantage that you can buy-up or buy-off.

Like Hidas have Large and Brash or something like that.

 

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