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RagingJim

Magic rules clarification

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In the magic section, you can add additional effects to a spell by increasing the difficulty i.e. adding a purple die. These effects add different qualities eg burn, disorient, stun etc

Page 86, in the Item Qualities section says:

Quote

Active qualities require ^ ^ to activate unless otherwise stated in their description

Does this mean that in order cast a fireball (using the example in the "A Touch of Magic" example), you have a difficulty of three purple to be able to cast the spell and also ^ ^ ^ ^ to activate both blast and burn?

The article states:

Quote

However, you can choose to add the Fire effect to your spell, increasing the difficulty of your check by one and giving it the Burn quality. Do you want your fireball to explode and hit groups? Give it the Blast effect for another difficulty increase.

Page 214 in the magic section states:

Quote

Before making a magic action, the character may choose any number of additional effects to add to that action ... However, each effect has a difficulty increase associated with it. You add each difficulty increase to the overall difficulty of the check.

This makes it sound like adding the purple difficulty dice replaces the need to activate qualities with ^ ^ . If this is not the case... that is super difficult to do.

I ran the fireball example through the online dice roller 115 times with 5 proficiency dice vs 3 difficulty dice, and came out with 100 spells where the fireball was not successful, and 15 times where it was.

I have played a couple of times now and have been running with the rule that you require ^ ^ to activate each additional quality... and have so far we have only had one successful spell. I am hoping that i have been playing it wrong. What does everyone else think?

Edited by RagingJim

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2 hours ago, RagingJim said:

In the magic section, you can add additional effects to a spell by increasing the difficulty i.e. adding a purple die. These effects add different qualities eg burn, disorient, stun etc

Page 86, in the Item Qualities section says:

Does this mean that in order cast a fireball (using the example in the "A Touch of Magic" example), you have a difficulty of three purple to be able to cast the spell and also ^ ^ ^ ^ to activate both blast and burn?

The article states:

Page 214 in the magic section states:

This makes it sound like adding the purple difficulty dice replaces the need to activate qualities with ^ ^ . If this is not the case... that is super difficult to do.

I ran the fireball example through the online dice roller 115 times with 5 proficiency dice vs 3 difficulty dice, and came out with 100 spells where the fireball was not successful, and 15 times where it was.

I have played a couple of times now and have been running with the rule that you require ^ ^ to activate each additional quality... and have so far we have only had one successful spell. I am hoping that i have been playing it wrong. What does everyone else think?

According to p. 214 the attack itself without qualities is one purple at short range. Now comes TableIII.2-5: Magic attack additional effects into play. It costs one purple and provides the blast quality equal to your knowledge skill (seemsknowledge will be a tremendous important skill for casters!). If you have knowledge 3 you gain the blast 3 quality. Fire adds the burn quality for one purple. The ranks in knowledge apply either, so you gain burn 3.

So casting a fireball at short range will literally "only" takes a 3 purple check dealing burn 3 and blast 3.

You have to distinct attack spells effect from weapon qualities in the case of magic attacks.

I used Leoric's stats from the gen con adventure with Intellect 4 and Knowledge (arcana) 3 and rolled 10 times with the Genesys dice app rom FFG(3 yellow, one green and three purple) and he succeded 7 out of 10. Funny sidenote, when I had him add one blue for aiming, he only hit 6 times out of 10 :D 

Oh, and I added one purple to increase the range and succeded 8 out of 10. 

Edited by DarthDude

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Also don't forget that focus items can reduce the difficulty of adding qualities to a spell. So if you have a focus of boom (lets you add the Fire, and Blast qualities without increasing the difficulty), then you are still only using 2 difficulty (medium range), and that might even be less depending on what type of focus you are using (wand, etc). Although on Reddit I posted to this that I would auto-activate the qualities, I have rethought my logic. 

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Also, remember to use Magic Implements, which decrease difficulty of spells. For example, your fireball would drop the first range effect's difficulty dice and increase the base damage by 4. Or you could use a wand and not have to pay the difficulty die for the fire or blast effect. Magic Implements really help, I think. Don't know for sure yet as I haven't been able to play Genesys yet; just read it.

My math-fu is weak at 5 am without my first cup of coffee, but it sorta looks like Darthdude's short range fireball would be 2 purple at short range and 3 purple at medium range with a Staff Magic Implement.

I could see using RagingJim's house rule of ^^ to activate a quality if you wanted to modify spells on the fly. For example, the Mage Player says, "I'm gonna cast an attack spell at that medium range dude there!" Rolls his 2y1g dice, gets a success and 3 ^^^ and then goes, "Ooo, I'm gonna add blast to that spell!" Might be fun.

I think what I'd use the ^^ for is to reduce the strain of casting the spell. Hmmm. Early morning pre-coffee ramblings can be... er... rambling. Heh.

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I'd also think about adding a Tier 1 Talent that reduces the difficulty of spell casting by one difficulty die. Maybe make it ranked, though if I did that, I'd probably give it a higher Tier so it wouldn't decrease the roll by 5 difficulty die by Tier 5. Maybe have it give one Success automatically each time it's taken.

Or something like that.

I'm off for coffee so I can get my thoughts straight.

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10 minutes ago, ArtWend said:

I'd also think about adding a Tier 1 Talent that reduces the difficulty of spell casting by one difficulty die. Maybe make it ranked, though if I did that, I'd probably give it a higher Tier so it wouldn't decrease the roll by 5 difficulty die by Tier 5. Maybe have it give one Success automatically each time it's taken.

Or something like that.

I'm off for coffee so I can get my thoughts straight.

Just sip one cup now as well :D 

Magic talents would be a great addition like tose magic/meta magic feats in D&D.

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I think I saw a talent in one of the GenCon sheets called Signature Spell that reduces the difficulty of the signature spell by 1. Unranked, by my guess, so I'd peg it as a rank 3 or 4. That seems relatively fair to me.

Depending on how the GM designs their spells, there could be a talent that allows a character to add a spell to their repertoire.

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8 minutes ago, fjw70 said:

So do you need advantages to active the effects that are added by increasing the difficulty?

No advantages needed beyond the increased difficulty for effects.

Example from the Terrinoth adventure:

Quote

 

Blood Funnel

Choose one target at short range for the attack
and make a Hard [3 purple] Arcana check; if the magic
combat check succeeds, the target suffers 4 damage + 1
damager per uncanceled success, with Critical Rating 2 and
the Blast 4 and Vicious 4 qualities

 

So thats a standard attack with 1 purple. Two effects with each one adding one puple: 1 purple for deadly and 1 for blast.

No advantages needed at all.

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21 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

No advantages needed beyond the increased difficulty for effects.

Example from the Terrinoth adventure:

So thats a standard attack with 1 purple. Two effects with each one adding one puple: 1 purple for deadly and 1 for blast.

No advantages needed at all.

Thanks.  

I went out for a little while this morning and was surprised to find my Genesys book was delivered while I was out. I don't have time to look through it right now since I am preparing for a Star Wars session this afternoon. But tonight it is all mine.  

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Just now, fjw70 said:

Thanks.  

I went out for a little while this morning and was surprised to find my Genesys book was delivered while I was out. I don't have time to look through it right now since I am preparing for a Star Wars session this afternoon. But tonight it is all mine.  

I envy you :) 

I'll have to probably wait one or two weeks here.

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38 minutes ago, fjw70 said:

So do you need advantages to active the effects that are added by increasing the difficulty?

Yes, you do. There is nothing in the magic section that would indicate otherwise.

For example, blast says you the attack gains the blast quality with a rating of your Knowledge. The rules for Blast are on page 86. It's an active quality, and "[a]ctive qualities require [2 advantage] to activate…."

Thus, qualities added require advantages to activate (unless specified otherwise, like autofire).

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C_beck, that's interesting! I didn't look at it like that. But going back over what is written in the Genesys RPG book (and not looking at any supplemental, setting-specific stuff like the Terrinioth) and that is quite possible. It's like adding a quality to a weapon. It still does something when it isn't activated with advantages, but does a whole lot more when it is.

Most of the entries on Table III.2-5: Magic Attack Additional Effects just say "attack gains the XX quality with a rating equal to your character's rank in Knowledge."

Interesting.

Edited by ArtWend

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14 minutes ago, c__beck said:

Yes, you do. There is nothing in the magic section that would indicate otherwise.

For example, blast says you the attack gains the blast quality with a rating of your Knowledge. The rules for Blast are on page 86. It's an active quality, and "[a]ctive qualities require [2 advantage] to activate…."

Thus, qualities added require advantages to activate (unless specified otherwise, like autofire).

What about an attack with two weapon qualities. Do I need 4 advantages to trigger both or 2 to trigger all who need 2 advantages? It would be hefty because increasing the difficulty to add qualities will lower the chances to generate advantages significantly an so the possibility to trigger qualities will be quite diminished.  

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8 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

What about an attack with two weapon qualities. Do I need 4 advantages to trigger both or 2 to trigger all who need 2 advantages? It would be hefty because increasing the difficulty to add qualities will lower the chances to generate advantages significantly an so the possibility to trigger qualities will be quite diminished.  

A hefty cost that balances out magic with non-magic attacks that usually have a 3 difficulty as standard.

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7 minutes ago, Swordbreaker said:

Thus, pick and choose which effects you really want in a certain circumstance. Or go for broke, hoping for a dynamic effect. Or invest in a magical item that grants a few qualities without increasing the difficulty.

Or pay the xp to increase the relevant magic skill, that will make it easier to succeed and to generate advantage

Edited by lupex

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Effects require 2 Advantages or a Triumph to activate typically and they require the attack roll to be successful.

In the case of Blast specifically however, a character can fail on the check and if they have 3 Advantages on the roll regardless, they can still activate just the Blast effect which does damage equal to the Blast rating on the original target and those engaged with it.  It's a very good effect when used by an advanced character.

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9 hours ago, RagingJim said:

Does this mean that in order cast a fireball (using the example in the "A Touch of Magic" example), you have a difficulty of three purple to be able to cast the spell and also ^ ^ ^ ^ to activate both blast and burn?

So RagingJim is correct with his initial guess. A fireball is made as a difficulty 3 (or 4 if you want to attack at medium range) check and costs 4 ^ to trigger both qualities?

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I'm not so keen on a magic system that involves random chance beyond just whether you hit or not. I'll probably remove the advantage cost in certain settings. I think an increased difficulty for effects and 2 strain per attack is cost enough.

 

Reason being I've ran star wars for 2 years now and players have a huge aversion to the auto-fire rules. I had players that never really got into it because they didn't like all the costs and I had players that avoided trying to affect multiple targets with the Move power because it required not just force points but also the auto-fire rules.

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3 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

In the case of Blast specifically however, a character can fail on the check and if they have 3 Advantages on the roll regardless, they can still activate just the Blast effect which does damage equal to the Blast rating on the original target and those engaged with it.  It's a very good effect when used by an advanced character.

Oh, so you can literally deal damage with the blast effect while missing if you have 2 ^? That's quite powerfulk indeed.

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