Engaged with each player and Ranged

[Seastan 1,324]

I seem to remember reading a ruling like this some time ago, but I can no longer find it.

In a 2 player game there is an enemy that is considered to be engaged with each player. It is the player A's turn to declare attacks. Are player B's ranged characters allowed to participate in that attack? 

If so, can player B's ranged characters attack the enemy again when it is player B's turn to declare attacks, assuming they've been readied?

[RichardPlunkett 81]

"Ranged:: A character with the ranged keyword can be declared by its controller as an attacker against enemies that are engaged with other players. A character can declare ranged attacks against these targets while its owner is declaring attacks, or it can participate in attacks that are declared by other players."

I doubt you need a ruling for the first part, the ranged rules clearly let a ranged character participate in attacks declared by other players, if the target is engaged with another player - which it is in your scenario. Those rules give no cause to believe that you also being engaged would matter.

As for the double attacks, each players gets only one chance to declare an attacks against each enemy, but that does allow characters to participate in multiple attacks against the same enemy, if they can participate in attacks declared by different players (this follows from the rules as written and has been confirmed in a ruling form Caleb). So a ranged character with a ready effect can routinely attack the same enemy twice, as long as it is engaged with another player. Again, I can't see how the enemy also being engaged with yourself would matter, as long as each attack itself was rules compliant.

[Teamjimby 630]

I don't see any reason why player B's ranged characters couldn't attack twice in that situation.

[Seastan 1,324]

14 hours ago, RichardPlunkett said:

"Ranged:: A character with the ranged keyword can be declared by its controller as an attacker against enemies that are engaged with other players. A character can declare ranged attacks against these targets while its owner is declaring attacks, or it can participate in attacks that are declared by other players."

I doubt you need a ruling for the first part, the ranged rules clearly let a ranged character participate in attacks declared by other players, if the target is engaged with another player - which it is in your scenario. Those rules give no cause to believe that you also being engaged would matter.

As for the double attacks, each players gets only one chance to declare an attacks against each enemy, but that does allow characters to participate in multiple attacks against the same enemy, if they can participate in attacks declared by different players (this follows from the rules as written and has been confirmed in a ruling form Caleb). So a ranged character with a ready effect can routinely attack the same enemy twice, as long as it is engaged with another player. Again, I can't see how the enemy also being engaged with yourself would matter, as long as each attack itself was rules compliant.

I should have been more precise. I remember seeing a ruling that said you could not declare ranged attacks against an enemy you are engaged with. I was hoping by posting here someone who remembers it can dig it up.

I know the core set rules regarding ranged, but those were not written with these types of enemies in mind.

Say I have Legolas with a Rivendell bow as my only attacker. You're saying I can choose whether or not to activate the bow depending on whether I want to declare the attack as ranged or not? This seems weird to me.

 

[RichardPlunkett 81]

Actually I personally don't think you would have a choice re Rivendell Bow, it would always apply.

From the FAQ: "Q: What counts as a “ranged” attack? A: A ranged attack is an attack made by a character with the ranged keyword against an enemy engaged with another player."

Until they add 'and not engaged with you' to that definition the resolution of this situation seems clear. If the character has ranged, the attack is ranged, even if the enemy is also engaged with you and you are declaring the attack and also using a bunch of your non-ranged guys. It seems a little weird but also very straightforward.

That said, while I can recall no ruling, nor find it, I can at least imagine Caleb issuing a ruling that changes this, but if it was older than a couple of FAQs I would possibly ignore it anyway since any changes he wanted to make to this definition should have made it into the FAQ (and noting his ruling do not always agree with each other and/or later FAQ, I strongly prefer FAQ text when relevant).

 

[sappidus 531]

FWIW I have also been unable to find a ruling like Seastan think he remembers, although it has certainly come up before...

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/98943-ranged-attack/?do=findComment&comment=980922

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1069473/ranged-attacks-against-durins-bane

[dalestephenson 1,482]

I would think it'd be reasonable to declare a ranged attack against an enemy engaged with another player even if you are engaged with them also -- but that if you did so, only your ranged attackers could participate.

[PachiLOTR 9]

On 12/2/2017 at 2:09 AM, Seastan said:

I seem to remember reading a ruling like this some time ago, but I can no longer find it.

In a 2 player game there is an enemy that is considered to be engaged with each player. It is the player A's turn to declare attacks. Are player B's ranged characters allowed to participate in that attack? 

If so, can player B's ranged characters attack the enemy again when it is player B's turn to declare attacks, assuming they've been readied?

I can't find the ruling either which is strange because I know I posted in the thread you are referencing.  I recall the ruling being "Yes" to your first questions and "No" to your second.  I unfortunately do not remember the justification or context of the ruling, but as the rules are written you should be allowed to do it.  Most people agreed that you should be able to make such a ranged attack, but "thematically" it didn't make sense.  Then the person who was offering the dissenting opinion emailed Caleb and got the ruling saying you could not make a ranged attack under such circumstances.

After this ruling was received I was annoyed because it was fundamentally changing the rules by adding NEW text to the ranged keyword rules.  They didn't even add it to the most recent FAQ/Errata.

As to why the thread is now "missing", is it possible that you can delete your account and with it any topics you made? 

[Seastan 1,324]

Quote

Hi Chris,

Yes, you can make a ranged attack against an enemy that is considered to be engaged each player by joining another player’s attack. 

And yes, you could hypothetically attack that enemy 4 times with a Ranged character if you have enough readying effects.

Cheers,

Caleb

Looks like you guys are right!

 

 

[Teamjimby 630]

That mostly answers the question.  Did you ask him if it counts as a ranged attack if you declare the attack with a mix of ranged and non-ranged attackers?  The clause "by joining another player's attack" makes me think the answer is no.

[JanB 85]

 

11 hours ago, Teamjimby said:

That mostly answers the question.  Did you ask him if it counts as a ranged attack if you declare the attack with a mix of ranged and non-ranged attackers?  The clause "by joining another player's attack" makes me think the answer is no.

Perhaps this helps ..

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by JanB

[Rouxxor 271]

11 hours ago, Teamjimby said:

That mostly answers the question.  Did you ask him if it counts as a ranged attack if you declare the attack with a mix of ranged and non-ranged attackers?  The clause "by joining another player's attack" makes me think the answer is no.

For what purpose do you want to know if the whole attack is or not a ranged attack? I see case where you want to know if a character made a ranged attack. And when he attacks on another player with the ranged keyword it work no matter if that player also attack with his own characters.

[Seastan 1,324]

5 hours ago, JanB said:

 

Perhaps this helps ..

 

Finally - this is post I was thinking about from the beginning. So you can't declare a ranged attack, but you can join in another player's attack and it would be a ranged attack.

5 hours ago, Rouxxor said:

For what purpose do you want to know if the whole attack is or not a ranged attack? I see case where you want to know if a character made a ranged attack. And when he attacks on another player with the ranged keyword it work no matter if that player also attack with his own characters.

Rivendell Bow perhaps? So if you were player 4 and had Hour of Wrath and Rivendell Bow on Bard, Bard could join in attacks made by player 1, 2, and 3, getting the +1 from Rivendell Bow for each attack (and stacking up the -2 def if the enemy is not immune) then declare an attack against the enemy yourself in which Bard would not get the +1.

[Teamjimby 630]

Yeah, I was just referring to Rivendell Bow since Seastan had previously mentioned it.