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Hordeoverseer

That Banzai + Negate Question

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I can't seem to find it using the search and I'm surprised it hasn't been asked...

So I play Banzai and it's negated. Can my opponent wait for the double banzai and negate both, incurring the honour loss?

Bonus: Can you target two different characters with one banzai card?

 

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I'd like someone else to confirm this, but my understanding is that the Interrupt timing window happens before someone starts resolving their Banzai. Once someone begins resolving Banzai, you're past the interrupt window and into the reaction window. You don't make the choice for Banzai until you start resolving it (because the choice is after the dash, the effect of the card.) So no, they wouldn't be able to wait to decide if they want to use the Interrupt Window.

As for the second, I'm less certain, but I think you can? Since it lets you resolve the whole ability rather than just the effect, it should let you choose someone else.

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If it's before the dash, it's part of the cost. After the dash, it's part of the effect. So with assassinate, you lose the honor even if it's interrupted, but with Banzai, you don't choose to pay the honor until you're already resolving the effect portion.

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1 minute ago, Hordeoverseer said:

Hm, I've been told that the honour loss is part of the cost (albeit optional) and that cancelling the card would be the effect as a whole.

If you follow page 9 of the RR step 2 and 5 go over certain costs / targeting which would be revealed and decided prior to the option to cancel at step 6.  The costs and targeting these go over are going to be the actual fate cost and legality of playing the card, and any decisions prior to the -dash- on the card text.  On page 5 of the RR in the section for Dash you will see that the -dash- divides the criteria necessary to use the ability from the actual effect.  Any targeting and costs that occur after the effect all happen in step 7 along with the effect.

You can see in this image where that -dash- is, and where the bonus effect and cost of doubling up the banzai are

Banzai!.png

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https://fiveringsdb.com/cards/search?q=banzai

 

From the developer ruling (I know I hate them as well but its all we have at the moment) I find it particularly amusing that you can voluntarily loose a second honour for no reason:

The sequence of playing Banzai!:

  • Announce playing Banzai!
  • Step 5: Choose a target
  • Step 6: Effects initiate (if canceled, stop here)
  • Step 7: Effects resolve - Target gets +2 mil. You may lose 1 honor. If you do, continue:
  • Step 5b: Choose a target (can be same or different)
  • Step 6b: Effects initiate (if canceled, stop here)
  • Step 7b: Effects resolve - Target gets +2 mil. You may lose 1 honor. If you do, nothing happens.

Losing 1 honor to "resolve the ability twice" is an optional part of the card's effect, not a cost.

Banzai! can be canceled in step 6 (before any effects resolve) or in step 6b (after one target gets +2 mil and a player loses 1 honor).

Developer ruling

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haha @Schmoozies that does make sense in a way, since the cost is part of the effect, and the effect is being triggered twice.  I hadn't really thought about it, but as a Scorpion clan player sometimes I wouldn't mind dropping 2 honor on a Banzai so I can nip 1 back with my SH lol

While that is a developer ruling - it does follow the rules as written pretty clearly.  I don't see any reason to say that I couldn't spend the extra honor if I found it to my advantage to do so lol

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26 minutes ago, shosuko said:

haha @Schmoozies that does make sense in a way, since the cost is part of the effect, and the effect is being triggered twice.  I hadn't really thought about it, but as a Scorpion clan player sometimes I wouldn't mind dropping 2 honor on a Banzai so I can nip 1 back with my SH lol

 

Really the only Clan that can take advantage of it.  But yup the situational advantage for Scorpion once you get down to that last bit of honor and your opponent stops bidding for cards to keep you from dragging him down any further.

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Thus, when Banzai is used twice, the second time on a different character, if the second usage (with loss of an Honor) was cancelled, Censured/Voiced/etcetera, will the first buff of +2 (fir the first character) get canceled as well?

 

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1 minute ago, LordBlunt said:

Thus, when Banzai is used twice, the second time on a different character, if the second usage (with loss of an Honor) was cancelled, Censured/Voiced/etcetera, will the first buff of +2 (fir the first character) get canceled as well?

 

Its basically 2 separate resolutions of the same effect, with the second one being optional and having an additional cost.  So if you cancel the second one, you only cancel the second one, first one still has already finished resolving.  If you cancel the first one, you don't get the chance to pay 1 honor to resolve it again.

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42 minutes ago, LordBlunt said:

Thus, when Banzai is used twice, the second time on a different character, if the second usage (with loss of an Honor) was cancelled, Censured/Voiced/etcetera, will the first buff of +2 (fir the first character) get canceled as well?

 

You resolve the effect of Banzai twice, but you don't pick new targeting.  If you play Banzai and target a character only that character will receive the effect whether you resolve that effect once or twice.  You cannot give +2 to two different characters with 1 Banzai.

Banzai is also [max 1 per conflict] so you couldn't play a second copy at the same time.

There is no way to allow Banzai to be played, and cancel only the 2nd activation.  The only opportunity to cancel Banzai is before the effect resolves the first time, you cannot cancel the 2nd resolution.  There is no case in which a player can have banzai cancelled and have spent that honor on the 2nd resolution. 

Edited by shosuko

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18 minutes ago, shosuko said:

You resolve the effect of Banzai twice, but you don't pick new targeting.  If you play Banzai and target a character only that character will receive the effect whether you resolve that effect once or twice.  You cannot give +2 to two different characters with 1 Banzai.

Banzai is also [max 1 per conflict] so you couldn't play a second copy at the same time.

According to https://fiveringsdb.com/card/banzai, you can give the bonus to two different characters.

Here's the developer ruling from the link provided (bold emphasis mine):

 

The sequence of playing Banzai!:

  • Announce playing Banzai!
  • Step 5: Choose a target
  • Step 6: Effects initiate (if canceled, stop here)
  • Step 7: Effects resolve - Target gets +2 mil. You may lose 1 honor. If you do, continue:
  • Step 5b: Choose a target (can be same or different)
  • Step 6b: Effects initiate (if canceled, stop here)
  • Step 7b: Effects resolve - Target gets +2 mil. You may lose 1 honor. If you do, nothing happens.

Losing 1 honor to "resolve the ability twice" is an optional part of the card's effect, not a cost.

Banzai! can be canceled in step 6 (before any effects resolve) or in step 6b (after one target gets +2 mil and a player loses 1 honor).

Developer ruling

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What people keep missing is that Banzai does not allow you to resolve the effect twice: it allows you to resolve the ability twice. The ability involves both costs and effects. Since targeting is a part of resolving the ability then you must pick a target second time around, whether it be the same or different.

Ability, not effect. Everything makes sense, then.

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5 minutes ago, Horizonshard said:

According to https://fiveringsdb.com/card/banzai, you can give the bonus to two different characters.

Here's the developer ruling from the link provided (bold emphasis mine):

 

The sequence of playing Banzai!:

  • Announce playing Banzai!
  • Step 5: Choose a target
  • Step 6: Effects initiate (if canceled, stop here)
  • Step 7: Effects resolve - Target gets +2 mil. You may lose 1 honor. If you do, continue:
  • Step 5b: Choose a target (can be same or different)
  • Step 6b: Effects initiate (if canceled, stop here)
  • Step 7b: Effects resolve - Target gets +2 mil. You may lose 1 honor. If you do, nothing happens.

Losing 1 honor to "resolve the ability twice" is an optional part of the card's effect, not a cost.

Banzai! can be canceled in step 6 (before any effects resolve) or in step 6b (after one target gets +2 mil and a player loses 1 honor).

Developer ruling

Interesting ruling...  I'll keep this in mind, thanks.

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3 hours ago, Horizonshard said:

According to https://fiveringsdb.com/card/banzai, you can give the bonus to two different characters.

...

Banzai! can be canceled in step 6 (before any effects resolve) or in step 6b (after one target gets +2 mil and a player loses 1 honor).

Developer ruling

Thanks for posting this. I’m still confused as to why the Action isn’t clarified or simplified on the actual card itself. 

Honestly, I have seen this card played in 3 different ways. Quite frustrating. 

 

I also question how if the Event was cancelled after being ‘pumped’ (losing an Honor to add an additional +2) it wouldn’t nullify the first pump of the Event. (saw this online) ☹️

Edited by LordBlunt

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7 hours ago, Soshi Nimue said:

Rules Reference page 9 - Initiating and Playing Cards

Step 6 is where the card would be cancelled, step 7 is where you choose to double Banzai and pay the honor.

There is no case in which you can spend the honor AND have your Banzai cancelled.  Either they allow you to play the card and you then decide to double it, or they cancel it and you never get the opportunity to spend the honor.

If you play Banzai and immediately move the honor and declare you are doubling it without giving them the opportunity to cancel it they would have the right to cancel it - but if you want you can say "I am playing Banzai, do you cancel it" and if they say no then you can double it, and they cannot back up at that point to cancel it as they made their decision at the proper time - and do not get to change that decision based on the resolution of your effect.

Note - they do get to see costs, cost modifications, and targets before opting to cancel as those are checked in steps 2 and 5 - but Banzai's extra honor cost and doubling effect is part of its effect resolution, not part of the card's initial cost.

You cannot choose 2 different targets with Banzai - while you can pay 1 honor to resolve the ability twice, the targeting is locked in.

Great answer! The kind I like!

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6 minutes ago, Fu Leng said:

Great answer! The kind I like!

Well apparently my answer was incorrect - so ignore that one lol.  I might edit it back out now just to avoid confusion.  This is the correct answer

5 hours ago, Horizonshard said:

According to https://fiveringsdb.com/card/banzai, you can give the bonus to two different characters.

Here's the developer ruling from the link provided (bold emphasis mine):

 

The sequence of playing Banzai!:

  • Announce playing Banzai!
  • Step 5: Choose a target
  • Step 6: Effects initiate (if canceled, stop here)
  • Step 7: Effects resolve - Target gets +2 mil. You may lose 1 honor. If you do, continue:
  • Step 5b: Choose a target (can be same or different)
  • Step 6b: Effects initiate (if canceled, stop here)
  • Step 7b: Effects resolve - Target gets +2 mil. You may lose 1 honor. If you do, nothing happens.

Losing 1 honor to "resolve the ability twice" is an optional part of the card's effect, not a cost.

Banzai! can be canceled in step 6 (before any effects resolve) or in step 6b (after one target gets +2 mil and a player loses 1 honor).

Developer ruling

The key difference is that the text reads "resolve this ability twice" rather than "resolve this effect twice."  I missed this, and it really is the key term that changes everything.  The ability is the entire thing, including "choose a participating character" so you can select two characters to each receive a +2 rather than dumping all +4 on a single character.  This also means that both times the ability goes through the steps on page 9 including that crucial step 6 that allows a cancel.

So I'm wrong - you can cancel it the first time and nip the whole thing in the bud, but if your opponent then pays 1 honor to repeat the entire action you can cancel it at that point with your opponent having received the +2 and losing 1 honor.

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53 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Well apparently my answer was incorrect - so ignore that one lol.  I might edit it back out now just to avoid confusion.  This is the correct answer

The key difference is that the text reads "resolve this ability twice" rather than "resolve this effect twice."  I missed this, and it really is the key term that changes everything.  The ability is the entire thing, including "choose a participating character" so you can select two characters to each receive a +2 rather than dumping all +4 on a single character.  This also means that both times the ability goes through the steps on page 9 including that crucial step 6 that allows a cancel.

So I'm wrong - you can cancel it the first time and nip the whole thing in the bud, but if your opponent then pays 1 honor to repeat the entire action you can cancel it at that point with your opponent having received the +2 and losing 1 honor.

WOW  I had no clue

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20 hours ago, shosuko said:

The key difference is that the text reads "resolve this ability twice" rather than "resolve this effect twice."  I missed this, and it really is the key term that changes everything.  The ability is the entire thing, including "choose a participating character" so you can select two characters to each receive a +2 rather than dumping all +4 on a single character.  This also means that both times the ability goes through the steps on page 9 including that crucial step 6 that allows a cancel.

Purely speculative, but I don't think it's as simple as 'resolve this ability twice' versus 'resolve this effect twice'.  'resolve this effect twice' doesn't yet exist in the game, and we may never see it.  Even if it did exist, it may not work in the way you are proposing.  We had a recent ruling that step 7 of the initiation sequence "the effects initiate" is considered the same as "the ability initiates".   Yes abilities are more encompassing than than effects, but the application of "resolve this effect twice" may be the same as "resolve this ability twice".  

Also, resolving an ability twice is only steps 5-7, not the entire initiation sequence.

RRG:

Quote

If an ability instructs a player to “resolve this ability twice,” repeat steps 5–7 of this process immediately after the first resolution of the ability’s effect (i.e., resolve the ability again before any reactions to the first resolution of the effect may be triggered). Costs are not paid a second time when an ability is resolved twice. 

 

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From the Rules Reference, Page 27:

 

If my opponent plays Banzai! (Core, 204) and I wish to cancel it with Voice of Honor (Core, 145), can I cancel the whole effect, or just half of it?


When your opponent plays Banzai!, they will select a target to receive +2. You may interrupt to cancel this effect, which would also cancel the option to repeat the ability. If you do not, and they choose to pay 1 honor to resolve the ability again, then you have another opportunity to interrupt to cancel the (new) set of effects that give +2 to a character. Thus, you can choose to cancel either the entire card effect, just the second part of the card effect, or none of the card effect.

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