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Ailowynn

Thoughts after proxying Kylo

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The dude’s legit. We tried him out last night, and I think we all agreed that he’s in contention for the best Imperial ship. 

We ran 46-point Kylo: PtL, AdvS, Autothrusters, Primed Thrusters, and title. I feel like this is the go-to build, but after a couple of games, I think he’d also be good with VI AdvS or PtL FCS, among other things. 

He’s expensive. Expertise QuickDraw is 37 points, before missiles and tech; Kylo is 9 points more, but ****, it’s worth it. 

His maneuverability is insane. Better than any other ace; in fact, I’d say better than any pilot in the game. If you’re up against single-arc ships, you win. There’s a lot of times when you dial in a move, get completely out guessed, and then AdvS boost/barrel out of it anyway.

Autothrusters helps him a lot. It’s really hard for TLTs to push through damage, even without the focus on Kylo. 

The lack of an evade action? Not a huge deal. He can take a decent amount of abuse, and autothrusters and the title really help. At no point did I think “if only I had an evade;” I just TLed instead. 

On the subject of the title: it’s a lot better than I expected. He gets rerolls the whole game, and then when he whiffs his greens, you ditch it and save his bacon.

He can bail out better than anyone. Dial in a five straight and you’re pretty much set. 

He’s not immune to stress. You still won’t get many shots on him with Primed Thrusters doing its thing, but his unmodified shots just aren’t that scary.

 

Anyway, that’s my experience. Anyone else tried him out yet?

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I'm waiting on Vassal update with the Silencer stuff (although I guess I could proxy too). I definitely agree, especially with all the Asajj and Tactician Wookiee Liberators running around, Primed Thrusters is definitely the way to go. 

When you proxied him, what did you partner with him? Did you use Palp? If so did you feel like you needed him or if not, did you miss him? 

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pretty sure turrets are more polarizing than arcdodging.

Arcdodging atleast requires some play knowledge and skill. Turrets are "dont fly into s*** and focus fire"
Arcdodging can also be messed with by bumperships, turrets generally dont give a **** outside loss of actions. Stripping actions off an arcdodge usually kills it that round while turret users just get whacked hard but not dead.

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3 minutes ago, RStan said:

When you proxied him, what did you partner with him? Did you use Palp? If so did you feel like you needed him or if not, did you miss him? 

I played on game against him and one with him. In the first game, my opponent flew Kylo, Palp, Omega Leader. I had stress control though; it helped. He couldn’t push through any damage really. I think at that point, you use Palp for offense as much as you can. 

When I flew him, I played Kylo, Vader, and a 16 point bid. I did not miss Palp. Neither ship suffers from 1 bad roll syndrome. 

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1 minute ago, Vineheart01 said:

pretty sure turrets are more polarizing than arcdodging.

Arcdodging atleast requires some play knowledge and skill. Turrets are "dont fly into s*** and focus fire"
Arcdodging can also be messed with by bumperships, turrets generally dont give a **** outside loss of actions. Stripping actions off an arcdodge usually kills it that round while turret users just get whacked hard but not dead.

True, doesn't make arcdodgers good, and they actively promote there being more turrets by virtue of being near impossible to reliably combat using arc-locked ships that aren't higher PS. And I would say arc-dodging only requires basic skill, and only slightly more than turreted ships. But that's just me, I never bought into the ZOMG Fel so hard to fly narrative.

Of course, arc-dodging turrets take the cake on being easy...

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6 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

True, doesn't make arcdodgers good, and they actively promote there being more turrets by virtue of being near impossible to reliably combat using arc-locked ships that aren't higher PS. And I would say arc-dodging only requires basic skill, and only slightly more than turreted ships. But that's just me, I never bought into the ZOMG Fel so hard to fly narrative.

Of course, arc-dodging turrets take the cake on being easy...

Prior to his death, the amount of people i had claim that the meta was just "fly palpaces and win" get completely smashed because they flew like a total twathead was hilarious.

Fel would dive 5fwd right into me and slam right into my shmuck out front, losing his actions. Instantly died as a result.

Dont get me wrong, arcdodgers are still easier to play than most ships but they still atleast require thought, which is what i was getting at. Meanwhile fatRey, Dash, Miranda, Ywings, TIE/Agg, and Dengar can effectively arcdodge people and still get shots because turret while hitting hard as heck.

Turrets being stronger than the main gun (or at the least, no negative out of arc) promote more turret use. Not arcdodgers.

I wish all turrets were treated like Reypilot or Sync'd Turrets: that is, they can shoot 360, but you really dont want to unless you have to. Rey loses so much potency out of arc and the sync'd turrets become pretty good in arc (just, again, turrets that are better than main gun exist so who uses a non-tlt turret?)

Edited by Vineheart01

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Yeah, there was a good level of minimum skill required to fly Palp aces. Fat-turrets literally just require you to not hit rocks or fly off the board. And even hitting a rock isn't the end of the world. If Fel hit a rock he was dead.

There need to be negatives for shooting out of arc.

Edited by BadMotivator

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1 minute ago, Vineheart01 said:

Prior to his death, the amount of people i had claim that the meta was just "fly palpaces and win" get completely smashed because they flew like a total twathead was hilarious.

Fel would dive 5fwd right into me and slam right into my shmuck out front, losing his actions. Instantly died as a result.

Dont get me wrong, arcdodgers are still easier to play than most ships but they still atleast require thought, which is what i was getting at. Meanwhile fatRey, Dash, and Dengar can effectively arcdodge people and still get shots because turret while hitting hard as heck.

Turrets being stronger than the main gun (or at the least, no negative out of arc) promote more turret use. Not arcdodgers.

I wish all turrets were treated like Reypilot or Sync'd Turrets: that is, they can shoot 360, but you really dont want to unless you have to. Rey loses so much potency out of arc and the sync'd turrets become pretty good in arc (just, again, turrets that are better than main gun exist so who uses a non-tlt turret?)

And why are turrets stronger than the main gun in an arc-dodger meta? In no small part because they actually get to be used. Now TLT also is more efficient than most primary weapons, but it still gets this additional multiplier.

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34 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

So, I get to experience the joys of pre-nerf Whisper now?

I'll preface this by saying that I do think the Silencer is good, but nowhere near pre-nerf Whisper, because the base attack of 3 is a lot less than the base attack of 4.  To really tear people down quickly (because at almost 50 points he's got to carry some weight), Kylo will have to be aggressive.  That will restrict the good moves in a real way.  If he's all arc dodging everywhere, he's not going to have the firepower to put enemy squads down very fast.  

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39 minutes ago, Ailowynn said:

I played on game against him and one with him. In the first game, my opponent flew Kylo, Palp, Omega Leader. I had stress control though; it helped. He couldn’t push through any damage really. I think at that point, you use Palp for offense as much as you can. 

When I flew him, I played Kylo, Vader, and a 16 point bid. I did not miss Palp. Neither ship suffers from 1 bad roll syndrome. 

Yeah I got 80, 85, and 87 Point Lists ready to go for this guy lol

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44 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Sigh, arcdodgers are just too polarising...but whenever they are too good is when the game is at its worst.

This is so well-put, because when Arc Dodgers are dominating the meta, an entire class of ships (read: jousters) are beyond worthless.

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5 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I'll preface this by saying that I do think the Silencer is good, but nowhere near pre-nerf Whisper, because the base attack of 3 is a lot less than the base attack of 4.  To really tear people down quickly (because at almost 50 points he's got to carry some weight), Kylo will have to be aggressive.  That will restrict the good moves in a real way.  If he's all arc dodging everywhere, he's not going to have the firepower to put enemy squads down very fast.  

All he’s gotta do is kill one ship and not die. A local has been flying Poe/Corran with a 5 Point bid with that same strategy.

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12 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I'll preface this by saying that I do think the Silencer is good, but nowhere near pre-nerf Whisper, because the base attack of 3 is a lot less than the base attack of 4.  To really tear people down quickly (because at almost 50 points he's got to carry some weight), Kylo will have to be aggressive.  That will restrict the good moves in a real way.  If he's all arc dodging everywhere, he's not going to have the firepower to put enemy squads down very fast.  

I don't think this is true -- Kylo's hand will not be forced to be overly aggressive.  As long as he scores some points in 75 minutes, he can reliably win, since he's not going to bleed off any MoV thanks to his being on a small base (despite his model's size).  Arc Dodge style lists are always about patience, and it's why you see some top-level players matches not having any attack dice rolled for 20-30 minutes.   It is all about jockeying for that perfect position or burning off some of the clock.

The best way to beat Kylo will be the same best way to beat Dash/Miranda, Triple K, and other such lists: fortress.  Force them to engage you in an open corner of the board or else to go to Final Salvo with their crappy Total Attack Value.  Boring and quite against the thematic spirit of the game, but what else can you expect jousty kinds of lists to do?  Because otherwise those kinds of lists are completely outclassed on the full board and will never be able to put enough attack dice on those kinds of enemies.

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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18 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I'll preface this by saying that I do think the Silencer is good, but nowhere near pre-nerf Whisper, because the base attack of 3 is a lot less than the base attack of 4.  To really tear people down quickly (because at almost 50 points he's got to carry some weight), Kylo will have to be aggressive.  That will restrict the good moves in a real way.  If he's all arc dodging everywhere, he's not going to have the firepower to put enemy squads down very fast.  

Completely agree with this. Whisper had the virtue of reacting to the board state in addition to being an offensive powerhouse. 4 dice with FCS is downright scary, even these days. Adv Sensors Kylo, on the other hand, only gets 3 red dice with a Focus and maybe a reroll. Average by today's standards. For a ship that costs nearly half your list, that's not great. Kylo will only shine if he's paired with a highly offensive threat. Because then his partner(s) can do the real damage, allowing Kylo to get the endgame he wants.

Edited by defkhan1

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16 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I don't think this is true -- Kylo's hand will not be forced to be overly aggressive.  As long as he scores some points in 75 minutes, he can reliably win, since he's not going to bleed off any MoV thanks to his being on a small base (despite his model's size).  Arc Dodge style lists are always about patience, and it's why you see some top-level players matches not having any attack dice rolled for 20-30 minutes.   It is all about jockeying for that perfect position or burning off some of the clock.

The best way to beat Kylo will be the same best way to beat Dash/Miranda, Triple K, and other such lists: fortress.  Force them to engage you in an open corner of the board or else to go to Final Salvo with their crappy Total Attack Value.  Boring and quite against the thematic spirit of the game, but what else can you expect jousty kinds of lists to do?  Because otherwise those kinds of lists are completely outclassed on the full board and will never be able to put enough attack dice on those kinds of enemies.

No offense to you, Allwings. 

every time I hear someone say "should fortress", I want to put all my ships down forever and stop playing this game ever again due to crap design and poor support. 

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Just now, Blail Blerg said:

No offense to you, Allwings. 

every time I hear someone say "should fortress", I want to put all my ships down forever and stop playing this game ever again due to crap design and poor support. 

I feel you, I absolutely have the same misgivings about the state of the competitive game and wonder what in the world the designers are thinking at times.

For what it's worth, I hate fortressing and I think it ruins the game entirely while being no fun, but then again I can't say it's any less fun than watching something like Dash/Miranda or Palp Aces hopelessly dissect your list over the course of an hour.  Both seem like miserable unsporting experiences.  So at least fortressing gives the entirely outclassed list a chance in that match-up, I suppose?

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Just now, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I feel you, I absolutely have the same misgivings about the state of the competitive game and wonder what in the world the designers are thinking at times.

For what it's worth, I hate fortressing and I think it ruins the game entirely while being no fun, but then again I can't say it's any less fun than watching something like Dash/Miranda or Palp Aces hopelessly dissect your list over the course of an hour.  Both seem like miserable unsporting experiences.  So at least fortressing gives the entirely outclassed list a chance in that match-up, I suppose?

I've actually tested vs both those lists very often. I disagree: Miranda eventually dies if you put enough fire into her. Poe Dash... whooo, now THAT's a tough list. 

Palp Aces, for what its worth, was probably a little too strong in its heyday. But Imperials need better support like old Palp. I wish they'd just re-nerf Palp to R1-3, old wording and be done. 

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