No Squad Dual ISD

[IronNerd 537]

I've been on a quest to find fleets which avoid reliance on fighting squadrons with squadrons as of late, as it is my least enjoyable part of Armada. After reaching out for some advice from the community, here's where I'm currently sitting on my "No Squadrons" approach to life:

ISD-2 - Jerry, Relentless, Skilled First Officer, Gunnery Teams, Reinforced Blast Doors, Leading Shots, XI7 Turbolasers

ISD-2 - Agent Kallus, GT, RBD, LS, XI7

2 x Gozanti - Slicer Tools

Gozanti - Comms Net

Objectives - Most Wanted, Contested Outpost, Solar Corona

This comes out at 399 points, so I could switch out Jerry for Motti if I wanted. I feel like Motti is better against the bomber lists I'm trying to counter, but Jerry is better against... well, pretty much everything else. Having played through a couple times, I'm really, really liking this. Slicers aren't super popular in our area, but after spending more time with them, I'm not sure why not. They are key in keeping the ISDs safe long enough to kill carriers. I'll gladly spend 30 points to keep Yavaris from triple-tapping me... There are a ton of tweeks that I've considered, mostly with swapping XI7 for more anti-squadron upgrades, but I'm finding that XI7s are KEY for finishing off ships. Thoughts?

Edit: The second ISD doesn't have Kallus and SFO... that's illegal. Fixed it.

Edited November 28, 2017 by IronNerd

[MandalorianMoose 1,862]

Definitly go Motti. Your only real weakness here is max fighters, and Motti helps a ton vs that. Plus, 17 hull ISD’s...

[PT106 2,316]

If you can find points, I would definitely recommend to incorporate a Raider into a build.

[Khyros 4,236]

Yeah, a nice Raider 1 w/ OE & External Racks is a great utility piece with an emphasis on anti-squadron... though I'm not sure how well it'll work without any squadrons or without a player 1 bid.

[PT106 2,316]

1 hour ago, Khyros said:

Yeah, a nice Raider 1 w/ OE & External Racks is a great utility piece with an emphasis on anti-squadron... though I'm not sure how well it'll work without any squadrons or without a player 1 bid.

It works. Surprisingly, a nice Raider 1 without OE & External Racks works even better as it's a lot of hurt for 44 points. I found that a bid is not really needed for this kind of fleet and points are usually better spent on ISD upgrades.

[IronNerd 537]

I would LOVE to get a Raider into this list, but the points are just too tight. It would require upgrading a Gozanti, let's say a Slicer. At a minimum, I have to find 14 points. Strip off Relentless, SFO, and both XI7s? I honestly don't think I would have won the first game without XI7s, so I'm hesitant to do that...

[Khyros 4,236]

1 hour ago, IronNerd said:

I would LOVE to get a Raider into this list, but the points are just too tight. It would require upgrading a Gozanti, let's say a Slicer. At a minimum, I have to find 14 points. Strip off Relentless, SFO, and both XI7s? I honestly don't think I would have won the first game without XI7s, so I'm hesitant to do that...

Well, if you want to stay with 5 activations... I say you drop the slicers from both Gozantis and upgrade one to the Raider 1.  If we take PT106's advice of leaving it naked, that means you need 7 more points.   I would take those from Kallus, SFO, and RBD on your non-Motti ship.  Then add a comms net to the remaining Gozanti.  You could also trade Relentless for either Kallus, External Racks, Flechettes (though I would recommend ER) or SFOs on both ISDs.

 

My gut tells me ER is the way to spend those 3 points, with SFO x2 being second, and Kallus (on the Raider?) being 3rd.  

[PT106 2,316]

3 hours ago, IronNerd said:

I would LOVE to get a Raider into this list, but the points are just too tight. It would require upgrading a Gozanti, let's say a Slicer. At a minimum, I have to find 14 points. Strip off Relentless, SFO, and both XI7s? I honestly don't think I would have won the first game without XI7s, so I'm hesitant to do that...

I agree that its hard to fit Raider in that list while keeping both ISDs reasonably stocked. My usual go-to solution was to downgrade one of the ISDs to OE ISD1, but this changes the fleet idea significantly, so it may end up being not your cup of tea.

 

[IronNerd 537]

6 minutes ago, PT106 said:

I agree that its hard to fit Raider in that list while keeping both ISDs reasonably stocked. My usual go-to solution was to downgrade one of the ISDs to OE ISD1, but this changes the fleet idea significantly, so it may end up being not your cup of tea.

I very much appreciate the ideas, but you hit the spot here. Fitting in a Raider completely changes the entire fleet idea. The double slicers has been fantastic at limiting how much damage I'm taking from squadrons. I also personally feel that, while it's a great ship, the Raider has to fit into a certain spot in a fleet. I feel that taking it here won't really let me do what I want. I can't just throw it out in front to kill squadrons, as any good opponent will make me pay for that. I want to face-tank with the ISDs in this fleet, where the Raider doesn't have a place.

[PT106 2,316]

26 minutes ago, IronNerd said:

I very much appreciate the ideas, but you hit the spot here. Fitting in a Raider completely changes the entire fleet idea. The double slicers has been fantastic at limiting how much damage I'm taking from squadrons. I also personally feel that, while it's a great ship, the Raider has to fit into a certain spot in a fleet. I feel that taking it here won't really let me do what I want. I can't just throw it out in front to kill squadrons, as any good opponent will make me pay for that. I want to face-tank with the ISDs in this fleet, where the Raider doesn't have a place.

Agreed. Thats why I didn't push the idea any further (as two Jerry ISD2 with Gunnery/RBD/LS/XI7 and two flotillas + 1 set of slicer tools leave you at 40 pts, so the only way to fit it is to start stripping ISDs). However, keep in mind that a Raider in this fleet is mainly an anti-ship tool (flotilla harraser, corvette hunter, walking space mine)/damage sink as opposed to anti-squadron.

Edited November 29, 2017 by PT106

[IronNerd 537]

4 hours ago, PT106 said:

Agreed. Thats why I didn't push the idea any further (as two Jerry ISD2 with Gunnery/RBD/LS/XI7 and two flotillas + 1 set of slicer tools leave you at 40 pts, so the only way to fit it is to start stripping ISDs). However, keep in mind that a Raider in this fleet is mainly an anti-ship tool (flotilla harraser, corvette hunter, walking space mine)/damage sink as opposed to anti-squadron.

Still a completely different list, but one I don't mind the idea of... Turn one of those ISDs into a BTAvenger and it frees up enough points to turn the Comms Net flotilla into an OE Raider. Still 5 activations, still 2 ISDs... Not as good against MSU, but better against MC80 Ackbar and other ISDs. Hmmm...

[Moore1980 233]

IMO any Imperial fleet without fighter support is suicide.

[Karneck 1,990]

9 hours ago, Moore1980 said:

IMO any Imperial fleet without fighter support is suicide.

For the most part, yes. That's what I've learned as well. You gotta have something screening for you for at least a turn so you can close on those carriers.

I run Dangar, Soontir, Mauler, Valen, and two tie fighters. Which is 82 points. It is an effective screen for two rounds usually. If you wanted to save more points, cut the two generic ties and Valen and keep Dangar, Soontir, and Mauler. Now its 53 points but will at least (hopefully) hold up a bomber group for one round.

 

This is coming from a local meta where everybody mostly plays Rebel small ships and squadrons.

[PT106 2,316]

13 hours ago, Moore1980 said:

IMO any Imperial fleet without fighter support is suicide.

Top-16 at US national disagrees with your definition of suicide

[IronNerd 537]

9 hours ago, Karneck said:

For the most part, yes. That's what I've learned as well. You gotta have something screening for you for at least a turn so you can close on those carriers.

I run Dangar, Soontir, Mauler, Valen, and two tie fighters. Which is 82 points. It is an effective screen for two rounds usually. If you wanted to save more points, cut the two generic ties and Valen and keep Dangar, Soontir, and Mauler. Now its 53 points but will at least (hopefully) hold up a bomber group for one round.

 

This is coming from a local meta where everybody mostly plays Rebel small ships and squadrons.

53 points is a Slicer Tools Gozanti AND a naked Gozanti. It's nearly a Slice-zanti (I don't know if that works, but I didn't feel like typing it all out again) and 2 Advanced. Heck, take a Slice-zanti (it's growing on me), Gamma, and an Advanced and save a point.

Not necessarily saying you're wrong, I'm just trying to make this work is all. I despise the idea of throwing away 53 points when that isn't even the part of the game I love.

[Karneck 1,990]

You are throwing away 53 points to ensure that 120 points (or more with upgrades) of your ISD doesn't get bombed to death by 130 points of bombers before it can close on their carriers to wipe them out. It's an investment to make a trade in your favor.
Have you not experienced a Yavaris triple tap from B-wings or Y-Wings followed up (Or in some cases started by) with an Admo MC30 on it's attack run?  If it doesn't kill the ISD in one round, it leaves it crippled for it's sure death the following round. It may mean you kill Yavaris, but you WILL lose the ISD. For the Rebel player, that is an up-trade they will take every time.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Karneck

[IronNerd 537]

5 minutes ago, Karneck said:

You are throwing away 53 points to ensure that 120 points (or more with upgrades) of your ISD doesn't get bombed to death by 130 points of bombers before it can close on their carriers to wipe them out. It's an investment to make a trade in your favor.
Have you not experienced a Yavaris triple tap from B-wings or Y-Wings followed up (Or in some cases started by) with an Admo MC30 on it's attack run?  If it doesn't kill the ISD in one round, it leaves it crippled for it's sure death the following round. It may mean you kill Yavaris, but you WILL lose the ISD. For the Rebel player, that is an up-trade they will take every time.

Of course I've experienced that. The entire idea is to be able to stop that without dropping those points on squadrons. I haven't tested against Yavaris yet, but how many people are running Wing Commanders on Yavaris? I slice his command away and I don't get triple tapped... Yavaris dies really fast to ISDs, there's a decent chance I only need to stop him for one turn.

[PT106 2,316]

1 hour ago, Karneck said:

Have you not experienced a Yavaris triple tap from B-wings or Y-Wings followed up (Or in some cases started by) with an Admo MC30 on it's attack run?  If it doesn't kill the ISD in one round, it leaves it crippled for it's sure death the following round. It may mean you kill Yavaris, but you WILL lose the ISD. For the Rebel player, that is an up-trade they will take every time.

Surprisingly this is a trade that I'm usually willing to make - trade cheap ISD for yavaris and neutering of the bomber threat while ensuring that expensive ISD is in position to kill Admo/flagship that round. When all is said and done, the total trade is usually favorable to the Imperial player.

[ktflory 36]

You need squads to slow down bomber lists IMO. Just spare points for x4 TIEs by getting rid on at least 1 Gozanti.

[IronNerd 537]

So I gave the Avenger version a try last night, and it started to confirmed my suspicions. While I think that version is much better against a doom pickle or opposing Avenger list, I find it weaker against bomber lists and MSUs.  I suppose it didn't help that my opponents dice were red hot in the first round (he rolled 4 hits from a Phantom twice, plus two more double hit + accuracy [with Sloane]), but the Avenger never got a good chance to do its thing. The extra range of a second ISD2 would have been very helpful.

[KaLeu 254]

On 1.12.2017 at 8:37 PM, IronNerd said:

Of course I've experienced that. The entire idea is to be able to stop that without dropping those points on squadrons. I haven't tested against Yavaris yet, but how many people are running Wing Commanders on Yavaris? I slice his command away and I don't get triple tapped... Yavaris dies really fast to ISDs, there's a decent chance I only need to stop him for one turn.

You don't need a Wing Commander on Yavaris. 3 points for Leia on a GR-75 and it's protected from Slicer Tools. I always have 3 points for Leia just for that.

[IronNerd 537]

17 hours ago, KaLeu said:

You don't need a Wing Commander on Yavaris. 3 points for Leia on a GR-75 and it's protected from Slicer Tools. I always have 3 points for Leia just for that.

Fair point. Speaking locally (and this is part of what makes defining a meta in Armada so hard), I've never once seen Leia on the table. I've seen Wing Commander on rare occasion, but never on Yavaris.

All that being said, I'm going to try a version where I drop one Slizanti and find room for 4 TIEs. We'll see if that ends up being a net positive... An extra activation is nice, the extra Slicer Tools is nice, and I like the idea of my opponents wasting a lot of points on anti-squadron tech they can't use. Then again, if sacrificing 4 TIEs keeps an ISD alive for another turn, it's 100% worth it.

[PT106 2,316]

37 minutes ago, IronNerd said:

Fair point. Speaking locally (and this is part of what makes defining a meta in Armada so hard), I've never once seen Leia on the table. I've seen Wing Commander on rare occasion, but never on Yavaris.

All that being said, I'm going to try a version where I drop one Slizanti and find room for 4 TIEs. We'll see if that ends up being a net positive... An extra activation is nice, the extra Slicer Tools is nice, and I like the idea of my opponents wasting a lot of points on anti-squadron tech they can't use. Then again, if sacrificing 4 TIEs keeps an ISD alive for another turn, it's 100% worth it.

Actually, the way I see it, Leia doesn't protect vs double slicer tools (and may sometimes fail vs single slicer) as its very activation-dependent.

Personally, I favor extra activation in a double ISD fleet higher than a small screen (as I feel it gives more from a cost-benefit standpoint), however, if one is willing to go with 4 activations fleet (2ISD 2Gz) route with squadrons, I would definitely recommend to spend a bit more and go for a defender spam (or at least 2 Defenders + 2 Interceptors)

[IronNerd 537]

Just now, PT106 said:

Personally, I favor extra activation in a double ISD fleet higher than a small screen (as I feel it gives more from a cost-benefit standpoint), however, if one is willing to go with 4 activations fleet (2ISD 2Gz) route with squadrons, I would definitely recommend to spend a bit more and go for a defender spam (or at least 2 Defenders + 2 Interceptors)

I *think* I'm going to like the second Slicer better, but it doesn't hurt to play test. As for what the screen is, 2 Defenders costs the same as 4 TIEs, so I certainly don't have 22 more points to add Interceptors. 4 TIEs increases my deployments by 1, but Defenders are far more quality. Not sure how I'd want to run that...

[MandalorianMoose 1,862]

27 minutes ago, IronNerd said:

I *think* I'm going to like the second Slicer better, but it doesn't hurt to play test. As for what the screen is, 2 Defenders costs the same as 4 TIEs, so I certainly don't have 22 more points to add Interceptors. 4 TIEs increases my deployments by 1, but Defenders are far more quality. Not sure how I'd want to run that...

I often run 6 ties as my bare bones fighter coverage in dual ISD or ISD/Demo fleets. It works very well. Supplementing your ship AA firepower you can take out a much larger enemy squadron force with relative ease. 

Let your opponents squads get the “jump” on your ships, you can survive a round of bombing. Then retaliate with your squads and follow up with overlapping ship flak. Nothing like farming an enemy 134 points with 48 points of your own