Jump to content
>kkj

A Guide to the "worst" ship in Armada

Recommended Posts

The Raider. Long has it been called "useless" and "too fragile" and everyone just thought of it as a very bad CR90 copy that sucks at ship-to-ship combat. First off: The Raider is the best dedicated flak-boat in the game. Thats a undeniable fact. Flechette Torpedoes and External Racks have only improved its capabilities in this regard, but it has already been great since Wave 2 due to Ordance Experts, the titles, ruthless strategists, etc. And now you can even have some pretty insane combinations like Instigator title combined with Tua-Clusters Bombs and Quadlasers + External Racks for effective Counter 3 or Counter 4 if you take Kallus over Tua. You can even put a Decimator next to your Raider and use Ruthless Strategists on the Counter Attack. That means 1 garantueed Damage for RS, approximately 3 damage from clusters bombs and counter 3 with QLT and ExRacks. Goobye AcePilot. Sure, you gotta take that Bomber hit, but you can usually survive 2 or sometimes 3 B-Wing Hits. Possibly 4 with Motti, so take him for that extra bit of survivability. Repair Commands to move shields are generally probably the best command you can give on the Raider, but we are gonna get to that later.

So the Raiders role as a dedicated flak-boat is pretty much unquestioned. We all know it can absolutely wreck squadrons, especially non-aces. Its the ship-to-ship combat that proves to be a problem. Back in Wave 2, there werent that much bomber fleets and most players went with a bare minimum of 4 A-Wings/Interceptors or Yt-2400s/Agressors or some other unique Rogues. So it is understandable that the Raider was considered bad at the time. Though that impression was and is pretty wrong in my opinion. The Raider is simply put a high risk - high reward ship.

So thats what i wanted to talk about - or rather write this guide about. Its pretty simple actually, there are 4 Steps for success with the Raider in a SHIP-TO-SHIP role.
In Order of importance.

1. NEVER APPROACH ON HIGH SPEED. There are some exceptions to this rule, for example if you want to drop off a Boba Fett with Rapid Launch Bays, or if you for some weird reason decided your Raider to be the objective ship, but generally the Raider is NOT MADE for a guns blazing-full speed assault. Thats what a CR90 can do, but a Raider is pretty much the Armament of a Gladiator put onto a Hammerhead or CR90. You cant shoot enemies at longe range while closing in and you arent that maneuverable at high speeds. Instead the whole design purpose of the Raider is about "catching" enemy ships, aka let them move into your weapons range instead of moving into their weapons range. At longe range your evades work optimal and you can brace incoming damage more reliably. So dont go on the hunt like a Gladiator, let them walk into your trap. Start a Speed 2.

2. CHOOSE UPGRADES THAT FIT FOR AN ONE TIME-ALL OUT ATTACK. The Raider is a glass cannon. If you fly it skillfully, you can get a better result with it than with a Gladiator but only ONCE. External Racks and Concentrate Fire Command can give you 3 Blue and 4 Black Dice as opposed to the same amount of dice from a Gladiator but composed of black and red dice, which lack good chances of getting accuracy. You can have success with Expanded Launchers (i have used it with Sensor Teams) but you really need to be in a perfect position for it, like in front of an ackbar conga line or blocking any other ship that cant fire back with much firepower from that arc. Yes you can get usage out of your Raider for multiple turns, but never build your Raider around that strategy unless you are very experienced with it. For example, the Raider can profit a lot from Redundant Shields (via Tua) because it lacks Redirects and can get in and out of the fight quickly, but you have to time your attacks perfectly in order to take SOME damage to use it, but not too much damage so that you are pretty much dead next turn. The Raider is not as forgiving as Lord Vader and im sure even the emperor would be impressed by this ships unforgiveness. So unless you are a absolut pro with the Raider, plan for one good attack and be happy if you get another one. Which leads me to my next point.

3. EITHER PLAN FOR HIT-AND-RUN OR KAMIKAZE SELF SACRIFICE. I guess its a no-brainer to say that you cant do both. But hear me out. Most of the time, if you approached the enemy correctly (see 1 and 4) you will find yourself in a good position to unleash all your Dice and Upgrades on one or possibly two targets. (Gunnery Team is in fact a great upgrade for the Raider II, especially with Disposible Capacitors and an Ion-Cannon Upgrade) Thats the moment you have to decide what your Raiders fate will be. There are two options: Either give the target all you got and then get out there as quickly as possible with no desire to get back into the fight for the rest of the game or stay (and in most cases ram the enemy) to get one final attack next round. The second option is only worth it if its pretty safe that your Raider will still be alive next round to get that final attack. And thats the relevant point: Dont take risks with this ship unless you can estimate them pretty reliably. It may sound inefficent to only get one attack with a 50+ points ship but think about how many times you only got that one double arc with your Gladiator and crippled a enemy ship with it. It is worth it. Especially since, once your Raider got safely out there, it will be pretty safe for the rest of the game unless its chased by fast squadrons or a Corvette. Dealing out your ships worth in damage while not giving your enemy the same amount of points for killing your ship is all a ship needs to do. Its the best way it can go actually and thats something to remember while flying your Raider.
If you are gonna sacrifice him, make sure it is worth it. Otherwise, surviving is victory. Which leads me to my final point.

4. USE OZZEL AS YOUR COMMANDER OR EMULATE A OZZEL-STYLE OF FLYING. There is a reason the Raider comes with Ozzel as its commander. Every ship has a commander that provides synergy for that specific ship and that alone is sometimes reason enough to choose that commander. (On a sidenote, that might be the reason why the Nebulon B is so bad without Titles: There is no commander in the Nebulon B Pack that would compensate the ships weaknesses) Of course there are quite a few options and commanders like Jerjerrod and Vader both work well with this ship. But Ozzel is still the best candidate. And you can see this at the ships speed chart, it is basically designed around the usage of Ozzel, the same way the Arquitens is desigend for Jerjerrod. So as i meantioned in 1, you should start your approach at Speed 2. (Sometimes Speed 1 can be useful/necessary for objectives like Station Assault or for specific ambush tactics, but most of the time it will be Speed 2) So the idea is to approach the enemy at Speed 2, let the enemy ships fly into your weapons range, attack with everything you have and then accelerate to speed 4 and get behind the enemy. If you are running Jerjerrod as commander it may be possible to get a nice turn towards the side of the battlefield at speed 4, but usually you end up behind your enemy. But anyway, the point is: Switch from attack speed (Speed 2) to escape velocity (Speed 4). You can either do it with Ozzel and even go from 1 to 4 if you are at Speed 1 for some reason, or you can do it with a Nav Token and Command. So your first command should almost always be nav to get that token and your command at the time of your attack (usually turn 3) should be nav too.

 

BONUS TIPS:

Commands

At turn 2 (or generally any turn you get shot at but cant fire back with all dice) a REPAIR command is vital. The Raider has no Redirects, but actually better shields than a CR90, so use that command to redirect shields. If you run Ozzel and use a Token to go from Speed 2 to 4 after your attack, you can use a Repair command to make sure your escape is covered by shielded hullzones. THINK ABOUT WHERE YOU WILL END YOUR MOVEMENT BEFORE REDIRECTING SHIELDS. I cant emphasize this enough. So many times i had my perfect escape plan layed out, unleashed all my guns at the enemy and was ready to get out of the trouble but then redirected all my rearshields to the front while ending up right in the rear or side arc of the enemy ship at the same time. As you can image, the Raider was indeed not very forgiving... luckily for me my opponent was. But i think you get my point. Think about movement before executing Repair Commands.

 

The Raider can function as a mini carrier, so squadron commands CAN be useful. Im not saying that a Gozanti wouldnt be much more efficent at that, but sometimes you really want that first actication to be your Flechette-Torps Raider while also not loosing out on a small squadron alphastrike (max. 3). Situational, but worth mentioning IMO.

 

Concentrate Fire Commands at first glance really seem to cater towards the Raiders style of striking once but hard. And they do. But sometimes maximum efficency is not optimal efficency and with time i found Repair commands to be more helpful than Concentrate Fire commands. Completely depending on the situation of course, but if you go wounded into a fight chances are that you wont get out of it alive.

I dont think i have to say much more about Nav Commands, other than that you NEED them if you want to have any chance of escape. Of course if your initial tactic is the kamikaze self-sacrifice tactic then well, you dont really need that ****. Spam ConFire until you get sick of it.


Upgrades

I think i already mentioned all the popular goodies you can equip on your Raider. Of all the slots it has the officer slot is probably the least used one (aside from Tua and Kallus) .

One card i have found to be quite useful is the Chart Officer. It costs only 2 points and helps the Raiders already fragil 4 hull. Often, after changing from Speed 2 to Speed 4 i landed on a debris field or asteroid because of the bad maneuverability at Speed 4. That extra hull damage or loosing those 2 rearshields can make make quite a difference for such a fragil ship and i often wished i had equipped a Chart Officer after yet again landing on a obstacle. It can also be helpful to "take cover" on a obstacle to obstruct your opponents shots without having the negative effect.

 

Admiral Montferrat can also be helpful, although i would not recommend using his effect for the approach. I tried it multiple times and most of the time i ended up ramming the enemy. Which both makes your 5-point investment useless and gives you a damage card. On the escape however, he can be quite handy. That extra die missing from the already weak rear arc of enemy ships can be the difference between survival and destruction. So dont use him on approach unless you really figured out the movement of all relevant ships. Remember, you dont loose him if the ENEMY rams you. Only if YOU ram the enemy. As i said, the Raider is not very forgiving towards its captains.

 

The Great Inquisitor might be useful for the Raider too, since he really wants to change its Speed, but i havent tried it out yet and im not sure if it does not rely too heavily on your opponents actions. Might be fun, if you use it additionally and dont rely on it.

 

 

So thats my Guide to the "worst" ship in Armada, i hope you enjoyed it and also had success with the Raider. Pardon my crappy, random capitalization, German here, so blame it on that :P I know someone here in the forums already wrote a Guide about the Raider and i read that some time ago, so i know this is not really something that new but i wanted to share my thoughts anyway.

Next up: The Nebulon B without Titles! :D Now THAT's gonna be a tough one...

Edited by >kkj

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for this. I'm mostly a rebel player, but play Imperial once in awhile. I've started a CC campaign at my FLGS and playing Imperial. This is helpful especially for those just getting started in the game or like me that have played for awhile now and dont the Raider much

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, >kkj said:

 I know someone here in the forums already wrote a Guide about the Raider and i read that some time ago, so i know this is not really something that new but i wanted to share my thoughts anyway.

I'm that guy (and here is that guide if anyone wanted more Raider reading), but I'm always happy to see more Raider love!

Edited by Snipafist

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, ktflory said:

Worst ship? Really? It's my 2nd favorite after the ISD.

I think it's a bit of hyperbole at this point, but back in wave 2 it was widely hated. As people have gotten more practice with it and some have done well with it competitively, it's been improving in popularity. I suspect if a poll were held right now, the worst Imperial ship award would probably go to the Interdictor. For Rebels, it's a bit tougher to guess exactly who would "win," so chances are that the Interdictor would probably win overall worst if only due to the Rebel vote being splintered and the Imperial vote being more focused.

Note: that's just my projections in terms of popularity overall. Just because a lot of people feel a certain way doesn't necessarily mean they're right. They weren't right about Raiders before, for example...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've long wanted to have a Raider fleet to work out, but did not have the patience to really do so. I like the aesthetic of the ship, as well as its speed, maneuverability and cheap price for an extra activation.

I like the advice here (as well as on @Snipafist's blog) of using it as an interception ship, rather than a speed hunter.

I'd really like to try a Raider build now. I'll just have to wait until after Regionals (next week), because I want to keep practicing with the fleet I've already decided on for that event.

Edited by Mikael Hasselstein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

I've long wanted to have a Raider fleet to work out, but did not have the patience to really do so. I like the aesthetic of the ship, as well as it's speed, maneuverability and cheap price for an extra activation.

I like the advice here (as well as on @Snipafist's blog) of using it as an interception ship, rather than a speed hunter.

I'd really like to try a Raider build now. I'll just have to wait until after Regionals (next week), because I want to keep practicing with the fleet I've already decided on for that event.

Pfft.  "Training". "Practicing".

 

I thought the Dark Side was all about passion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

I've long wanted to have a Raider fleet to work out, but did not have the patience to really do so. I like the aesthetic of the ship, as well as it's speed, maneuverability and cheap price for an extra activation.

I like the advice here (as well as on @Snipafist's blog) of using it as an interception ship, rather than a speed hunter.

I'd really like to try a Raider build now. I'll just have to wait until after Regionals (next week), because I want to keep practicing with the fleet I've already decided on for that event.

I think you've made the right choice. I'm definitely keen on Raiders, but if you're coming to them fairly green it takes a lot of practice to really get a feel for them; that's especially true if you're used to other Imperial black dice ships (primarily Gladiators) which are designed for more immediate face-smashing. Raiders used that way will generally not do well, so you need to build up some new habits over time.

I highly recommend them with Ozzel (as @>kkj did as well) for the speed control. He really helps with the nav tokens and allows them to position very favorably. They can also do well with most other commanders in the right setup, but Ozzel is probably the best for coming to grips with them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I think it's a bit of hyperbole at this point, but back in wave 2 it was widely hated. As people have gotten more practice with it and some have done well with it competitively, it's been improving in popularity. I suspect if a poll were held right now, the worst Imperial ship award would probably go to the Interdictor. For Rebels, it's a bit tougher to guess exactly who would "win," so chances are that the Interdictor would probably win overall worst if only due to the Rebel vote being splintered and the Imperial vote being more focused.

Note: that's just my projections in terms of popularity overall. Just because a lot of people feel a certain way doesn't necessarily mean they're right. They weren't right about Raiders before, for example...

From my understanding it's Hammerheads.  They're WRONG, of course, but Hammerheads are winning the "hatred" vote with nebs and peltas close behind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Pfft.  "Training". "Practicing".

I thought the Dark Side was all about passion.

Are you saying I don't have enough passion for the Empire? It takes a lot of passion to train and practice this much.
 

12 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I think you've made the right choice. I'm definitely keen on Raiders, but if you're coming to them fairly green it takes a lot of practice to really get a feel for them; that's especially true if you're used to other Imperial black dice ships (primarily Gladiators) which are designed for more immediate face-smashing. Raiders used that way will generally not do well, so you need to build up some new habits over time.

I highly recommend them with Ozzel (as @>kkj did as well) for the speed control. He really helps with the nav tokens and allows them to position very favorably. They can also do well with most other commanders in the right setup, but Ozzel is probably the best for coming to grips with them.

Indeed, which is why I am sticking with my Imperial ArqConga Line. Thanks for some informative material on that as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, geek19 said:

From my understanding it's Hammerheads.  They're WRONG, of course, but Hammerheads are winning the "hatred" vote with nebs and peltas close behind.

Gawd people hate peltas with a passion. it's so weird to me, i was flying them in all the store champs i played in and took first in two. It's a surprisingly tanky, "alright" at shooting carrier and nothing more(and i find it to be cost effective at that as well). I tend to run it down the middle, fairly slow(like it can go fast) while my lib comes in from the side "clever girl" style.  Sometimes i think people ask too much from a 60 point ship. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Certainly Raiders are a contradiction in terms. What made me start to accept them is the fact that, at speed 4, they can cross a range band in one move. You can build them thus as kamikazie craft that ignore getting shot at, then they suddenly appear at close range delivering their painful payloads (APT blasts usually) at ideal range.

Yet I read Snipfists' article talking about trying to use them as escorts, and it kind of makes sense.

Considering my Imperial lineup I don't think Raiders are my most hated ships- just very niche and difficult to use. Same with Quasars... they are easy to "mis-use" and lost before their payoff. I think I can agree with Snip- Interdictors are the least liked because it's too many points for not enough returns. However, I'd also point to the Victory. Interdictors and Quasars at least do special things for odd costs, but the VSD is almost always passed up for the Imperial. I just keep wishing for upgrade cards to make the VSD what it should be.

 

For the Rebels, I feel it's the Nebulon or the Assault Frigate based on conversations with Mythics. The Nebulon hangs on only because of the Yavaris title. Assault Frigates have no advantages over other craft in the Rebellion lineup, and so they are passed up again and again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Assault Frigates have no advantages over other craft in the Rebellion lineup, and so they are passed up again and again.

Only real viable source of Flight Controllers? Technically you CAN put it on other ships, but it really doesn't work well anywhere else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Only real viable source of Flight Controllers? Technically you CAN put it on other ships, but it really doesn't work well anywhere else.

Well, sure, but how good are A/Fs as carriers? Yeah Flight controllers is there, but you really can't beat double-tapping three of the Rebellion's deadliest squadrons (Whatever you decide those are), even with Flight Controllers. And you can save the points by giving them more things.

For whatever the A/F does, other ships do it better. Long range firepower? CR-90s with TRCs and Intel Officers, or multiple hammerheads. Raw attack power? Take an MC-30. Carriers? Yavaris is already there, or you can push squadrons around with a couple of GRs. The A/F has it worse than the VSD but both of them are suffering the same problem: Bigger ships stay healthier for longer and smaller ships are more economical and help you win the activation game.

Mediums need some real loving, IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Well, sure, but how good are A/Fs as carriers? Yeah Flight controllers is there, but you really can't beat double-tapping three of the Rebellion's deadliest squadrons (Whatever you decide those are), even with Flight Controllers. And you can save the points by giving them more things.

For whatever the A/F does, other ships do it better. Long range firepower? CR-90s with TRCs and Intel Officers, or multiple hammerheads. Raw attack power? Take an MC-30. Carriers? Yavaris is already there, or you can push squadrons around with a couple of GRs. The A/F has it worse than the VSD but both of them are suffering the same problem: Bigger ships stay healthier for longer and smaller ships are more economical and help you win the activation game.

Mediums need some real loving, IMO.

It can't be the ONLY thing in your fleet doing that one role, but i've got it pushing squadrons AND throwing long range damage and it can get work done.  And i'll counter your "mediums need love" argument with the fact that it's been consistently seen on the top table for the last several years (i think it's won 2 or 3 of the last 3/4 years?).  I was in the same spot you were in with regards to it maybe 3 months ago, that it sucked, but i gave it a shot again and its a good ship, Bront.  It's not doing anything as crazy as Yavaris, but it doesn't blow up as easily as Yav, either.

I DO agree with you that it doesn't help you with regards to winning the activation war, but i'm using it as a "both squadrons and damage role" and it does solidly.  It's contributing to pushing squadrons along with Yavaris, and it's still winging dice out the side to contribute just like the CR90 is.  Combine it with the fact that its best dice are in the side and you don't need to rush towards your opponent and can stay alive with them.  It's not an MC30 of insanity, but that wasn't what I was looking for when I added it to my fleet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

Well, sure, but how good are A/Fs as carriers?

Have you seen a well-flown Gallant Haven list??  Go look at any of the games @Brikhause has streamed over the last year and a half, if not... including the top table at Worlds 2016.

I mean, I'm not saying the ship itself is necessarily anything to write home about, but if the title alone keeps the Nebulon off the list, GH is definitely enough to keep the AF2 off too...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AF wins big worlds and natl levels tourneys as Gallant Haven. If you're not into that type of Rebel squadron play, it has basically zero other uses in this meta. (The Af2 Ackbar train isn't popular anymore. ) 

The most hated Imp ship isn't the Raider anymore. Ever since Clonisher's game breaking demonstration for whatever worlds/nats that was. 

Currently, its probably the Interdictor, which Dras has his nose punch list. Gink also had an entertaining control list with 4 ships including a great Slicer Gozanti. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So basically you keep it for activations and maybe partner it up with another fast ship such as a Gladiator (such as demo) and use it to add its firepower to give little more punch. Other than that just a not very good screen for squadrons I guess.

I mean it is hard to take blue/black to fight especially with only 4 hull.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was one of the few Raider proponents (alongside Snipa & Clon) back when they first arrived, and used them a lot. (still really like them).

Unless you are building a fleet designed to go first, with a huge front loaded menace, Raiders are counter intuitive to standard Imperial play tactics, and require some finesse.

Raiders are superb area denial ships, Imperials ISD's, and VSD's will struggle to get targets into their front arcs, and keep enemies out of their side/rear arcs, A lot of Rebel ships are fast and maneuverable, they want to be out of your front arcs and into your arcs where dice parity is equal, this is where the Raider steps up, they are cheap and dangerous, very very dangerous, at speed two they have a II II maneuver template, which means on the turns you want to be shooting, you can take a Conc Fire order, boosting them to a whopping 3blue/4black dice double arc threat, and they are very easy to double arc with.  

Everything else has been covered by Snipa in his excellent blogpost.

But do not underestimate the Raider, it is not just another activation, unless that is all your imagination limits it to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Have you seen a well-flown Gallant Haven list??  Go look at any of the games @Brikhause has streamed over the last year and a half, if not... including the top table at Worlds 2016.

I mean, I'm not saying the ship itself is necessarily anything to write home about, but if the title alone keeps the Nebulon off the list, GH is definitely enough to keep the AF2 off too...

Sorry to go off topic here, but are there other streams for battle reports you are fond of?  I've found a couple on youtube but people keep talking about twitch streamed games and I seem unable to find them!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

Sorry to go off topic here, but are there other streams for battle reports you are fond of?  I've found a couple on youtube but people keep talking about twitch streamed games and I seem unable to find them!

Indierockclimber on YouTube ( @WWPDSteven on the forum) has the biggest collection of recorded games I've seen. He's a really great player, plays a bunch of different lists against a bunch of different purple, and is pretty fun to watch, to boot. Unfortunately, I'm not sure he's playing Armada anymore, so what's out there may be all that's coming.

Other than that, there are quite a few on here who steam live events from time--just watch for the announcements on the forum. Off the top of my head, I know @Brikhause has a twitch channel of the same name that he streams events on, and @jamie nasmyth and @X Wing Nut I believe stream with some regularity as well.

The real treasure trove is in Vassal logs, though. You can find a ton of games by some of the best players in the world by looking through the various Vassal Tournament threads for people playing their results. You can download and watch the replays of their games in Vassal.

@Brikhause

Edited by Ardaedhel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...