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Two Major Dissappointments from PAX Unplugged

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12 minutes ago, Hinomura said:

Kempy has it right. It was usually done at the start (and sometimes end) of Koteis and up in the UK, and rarely done at events smaller than that.

I don't remember doing it at UK Koteis, but my memory is poor, so I might have forgotten.

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Was at the very first UK Kotei and pretty much every one through to 2009 when I moved to the States, and it was definitely a fixture at them during that time period. It was also performed back in April at the last Old5R Kotei at Patriot in Sheffield.

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15 hours ago, Horizonshard said:

To be fair, the wording on Way of the Lion is very rough and really needs errata to be clear what the actual intent was.

But yes, two Way of the Lion on Toturi leaves him at 24 Mil strength

https://fiveringsdb.com/card/way-of-the-lion

 

RRG, pg. 3: Base Value - "The value of a quantity before other modifiers are applied. For most quantities, it is also the printed value."

That seems perfectly clear to me.  The value before other modifiers, which seems obvious to interpret as "modifiers other than modifiers to the base value".   I didn't like the ruling at first, and it's not obvious from the way the card itself is worded, and also I think it's silly to define Printed Value and Base Value as two different things...  But it is pretty clear in the RRG.

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8 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

Rokugan Chant

Leaders: For Honor!
Competitors: Honor!
Leaders: For Glory!
Competitors: Glory!
Leaders: For Rokugan!
Competitors: Rokugan!

I can't believe this is an issue for anyone? And an old shout out of Banzai? Hahahaha it's a game, people having fun.

Leave your politics at the door. Unbelievable, rather humorous 

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Let me get this straight.  In L5R I need to focus on fate management, the many and varied decision points, the potential plays of all the other clans, tie breaker stats, and the following:

* social justice

* Nazi sympathizers

* Marxist/Leninist history

* the merits of one ritualistic chant versus another

I have to say that is more than I expected when I picked up my core sets. 

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2 hours ago, ZenClix said:

Let me get this straight.  In L5R I need to focus on fate management, the many and varied decision points, the potential plays of all the other clans, tie breaker stats, and the following:

* social justice

* Nazi sympathizers

* Marxist/Leninist history

* the merits of one ritualistic chant versus another

I have to say that is more than I expected when I picked up my core sets. 

Honestly it's pretty easy to just focus on the rules of the game and igonore all the other ****. I highly recommend it, actually, as it helps keep perspective on the important aspects of the game and less on the meaningless ones like chants and, well, literally anything that happened in the old version of the game. It makes the game infinitely more enjoyable, too. 

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10 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

Why in the world would I be scared what word someone says while playing a card game?  (And that really applies to both sides here.)  For someone complaining about "a storm in a teacup," you sure seem to be making a big deal out of nothing yourself.

I think it is right to be concerned when a group of people who have no involvement with a group are able to change the customs of that group without any legal justification, just pure social pressure.  People who were not involved thought other people who also were not involved might be offended, even though there were no signs that anyone was offended, was enough to change this companies policy - because there is a precedent already set of companies receiving massive negative media attention for not bowing to the whims of this movement.  Its a very strong movement, and scary when it decides to oppose you.

6 hours ago, estyles said:

 

RRG, pg. 3: Base Value - "The value of a quantity before other modifiers are applied. For most quantities, it is also the printed value."

That seems perfectly clear to me.  The value before other modifiers, which seems obvious to interpret as "modifiers other than modifiers to the base value".   I didn't like the ruling at first, and it's not obvious from the way the card itself is worded, and also I think it's silly to define Printed Value and Base Value as two different things...  But it is pretty clear in the RRG.

The confusion comes from the idea that it is "the value of a quantity before other modifiers are applied."  Unless you realize that modifying the base value isn't actually creating a "modifier" then one might think that "doubling the base value" creates a modified value which is twice the base value without actually changing the base value.

Edited by Soshi Nimue

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4 hours ago, ZenClix said:

Let me get this straight.  In L5R I need to focus on fate management, the many and varied decision points, the potential plays of all the other clans, tie breaker stats, and the following:

* social justice

* Nazi sympathizers

* Marxist/Leninist history

* the merits of one ritualistic chant versus another

I have to say that is more than I expected when I picked up my core sets. 

lol

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Every judge call i received at pax was consistent with worlds, rulings via email is beyond dumb and has been nothing but problematic in other ffg games; we have on multiple occasions seen conflciting rulings via email between faqs.  The judges at pax had a rough time in front of them because pax itself had no idea what they were doing. Cascade did awesome, even with pax getting in their way at every, single step. Seriously i will never go to another pax again, i have comics hanging in my house signed my mike and jerry, but pax was awful. i will however absolutely go to another cascade event.  

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They could of also benefited from a microphone or speaker system, that is my only gripe but in my matches (all 7) we never had a rules question so never had to call over a judge. They did the best they could (pax) on short notice it could of been even more of a ***** show but i honestly didn't notice it too much.. maybe i just had low expectations lol. I would go again as it is a nice get away and close (about an hours drive) to attend another grand event (gencon being the bigger one).

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Ignoring your dumb chant nonsense:

1. When the players got what they thought was an incorrect ruling, did they appeal to the head judge?  That's their right to do so.  Floor judges do make mistakes.

2. You can't use e-mail rulings.  E-mail rulings are the worst.  Once I heard the designer was giving out e-mail rulings, I said "he needs to talk to Frank Brooks and ask about how this is going to bite him in the ***."  And it has!

The biggest disappointments I had were the lack of a loudspeaker system, and the lack of ability to enter the hall beforehand to hang out and play warmup games.  The event itself was fun.

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15 hours ago, TopHatGorilla said:

FFG just needs to set up an official rules forum.


They really do. One of the things I miss most about AEG is their official rules forum with its official Rules Staff moderators. The current rules forum is nice for informal questions but useless for getting an FFG-approved response.

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On 11/22/2017 at 5:00 PM, agarrett said:

  For the others, I think you've got good points. Hopefully they can improve as they move forward. I got a survey from PAX looking for ways to improve the convention, but haven't gotten anything similar (yet) from FFG or Cascade. I hope they send something like that out, and please add your complaints if they do. Personally I had a great time, but my goal was to win at least one game and just have fun (and I succeeded in both.) Being far less competitive, this wouldn't have had a big affect on me. I hope you still managed to have fun despite the problems.

  On the chant, I'm with you on preferring Banzai, but not so much on claiming the new chant is Nazi-inspired. Come on, the way to answer an overreaction is not with a counter-overreaction. I was moderately pleased to see the Banzai cheer after the official one, and both were mercifully short. My biggest complaint with the ceremony was actually introducing the hatamotos. I thought that was supposed to be a bigger deal, and instead they were just asked to stand up. Well, it took so long to get organized maybe anything else would have been a worse delay. I just had hoped to see a bit more ceremony around them.

I had a great time at PAX, once I was done dealing with the Grand Kotei portion. I do hope FFG and Cascade learn from this and improve, but for the moment, I have plans to avoid anything Cascade is involved in that is not MtG.

I did not say the new chant was Nazi-inspired. I am only pointing out that it is similar to Nazi chants used during WWII and it needs to be looked at. Also, this concern was initially raised by European players.

Hearing Utz-Banzai! was definitely a highlight. The new chant did not have full participation from the crowd, so it sounded weak and insignificant. Utz-Banzai! started off low and caught people off guard, but by the third one, you could tell there was solidarity among the players. The volume of it was unmistakable. It was a good reassurance that, official or unofficial, Utz-Banzai! will carry on.
 

On 11/22/2017 at 5:10 PM, suburbaknght said:

I understand the Nate French mulligan issue, but until things are officially codified, I think judges have to go by what has been published.  As for the other things... errors are understandable, if regrettable.  This doesn't mean they should get a pass, but we should be realistic - in other words, FFG should look into a training program for their judges and Cascade should make sure they're judges are familiar with the games they're being asked to judge.

The game is still young and errors will be made. That is understandable. But having a Grand Kotei being judged by people who have never played the game is not. I hope FFG and Cascade put steps forward to ensure this doesn't happen again.

The thing with the mulligan ruling is that, when it comes from the lead designer, it's pretty hard to argue that it's anything but official. This is why we need a living rules document. A clarification of this magnitude should not be contained within an email. If it's the designer's wishes that this is how the game should be played, they need to have a platform where they can get this info out to as many players as possible as quickly as possible to ensure that everyone is playing the game as intended.
 

On 11/22/2017 at 6:33 PM, Kakita Shiro said:

Banzai has never been insinuated to be negative toward Japanese, just other East and Southeast Asians whose families suffered at their hands in World War II.

My stance was not that Banzai was negative towards Japanese. My position is that declaring that Banzai is negative enough that it needs to be removed from a Japanese inspired game is negative and insulting to Japanese. Banzai is used to express joy and celebration today in Japan, as it has been used for centuries. For a US-based company to declare Banzai to be something negative is pretty insensitive and insulting.
 

On 11/23/2017 at 3:31 AM, Soshi Nimue said:

Not all of the dev emails change the rules, sometimes they are simply answering according to the rules.  The rulings simply put it into clear language where some would try to redefine the language in the RR to suit some arbitrary case that just isn't so.

I believe it is:
"For Honor,
For Glory,
For Rokugan!"

The SS have a saying "My Honor is called Loyalty."  I think its a stretch to say the new chant is reminiscent of the SS - as much of a stretch as saying Banzai is actually problematic...  except that PC culture is vicious and in power.

By FFG's standards, it only needs to be "similar". And apparently the new chant is similar enough that multiple European players raised a concern over it in the L5R FB group. The group reaches over 5.4k players worldwide, so I think it should be a big enough concern that FFG should really look into the matter.
 

On 11/23/2017 at 5:49 AM, Matrim said:

I agree you are flogging a dead donkey if you are trying to get it back not helped by the over reaction to the new chant. Being from the UK myself and a historian by training  I can say that though the UK is still over focused on ww2 most people here would not associate the new chart with the ss. In Germany there might be eyebrows raised at a group of people shouting 'for honor' but Germany has moved well on from the war (for obvious reasons) and both the UK and Germany have enough issues with real fascists that a shout at a card game competition is unlikely to make much impact.

I am not a historian, but I can say that in over 10 years of being involved in the game, I have never heard of anyone associate Utz-Banzai! with anything negative. And the initial concern regarding the new chant was raised by European players, mostly British and German. If you are not a member of the FB group, I would invite you to join. Perhaps between your training and their concerns, we can discuss this further.

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On 11/23/2017 at 9:18 AM, estyles said:

 

RRG, pg. 3: Base Value - "The value of a quantity before other modifiers are applied. For most quantities, it is also the printed value."

That seems perfectly clear to me.  The value before other modifiers, which seems obvious to interpret as "modifiers other than modifiers to the base value".   I didn't like the ruling at first, and it's not obvious from the way the card itself is worded, and also I think it's silly to define Printed Value and Base Value as two different things...  But it is pretty clear in the RRG.

Unfortunately, this was not the way it was ruled. The judges went by printed, which is what Base means in MtG. Since the Grand Kotei judges were selected because of their experience judging Magic events, we can see why they ruled it the way they did.
 

On 11/25/2017 at 8:15 AM, pheaver said:

Ignoring your dumb chant nonsense:

1. When the players got what they thought was an incorrect ruling, did they appeal to the head judge?  That's their right to do so.  Floor judges do make mistakes.

My friend who received the Akodo Toturi ruling was told by the judge that he WAS the head judge. The players involved in the Void Ring ruling were told that the head judge was too busy and they basically had to play on.
 

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On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 5:25 AM, Fu Leng said:

I have no friggin clue. I didn't know they chanted??

I only went to some smaller tournaments years ago and they didn't chant there??

My sons and i had a game store and we ran tournaments, chanters would have got the boot.

So much for the term FLGS. 

I think FFG should have just gotten rid of the chant all together if they wanted to dodge the criticisms.  By changing the chant it kind of makes the issue never go away.  I liked the old chant better.  I could live with no chant.  The new chant feels weird to me.

The judges should have been prepped with a  FAQ.  Many of the things the OP brings up are things that have been ruled on and discussed well before PAX. Interesting that he received so many bad rulings, but it sounds like that wasn't everyone's experience.

Edited by phillos

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As an Austrian player the chant really reminds me of the chants of totalitarian regimes. I have seen hungarian facists chanting "Honor and Glory to our eternal Führer" and I have heard the following chant in Germany "Glory and Honor be to the SS!" and one of the forbidden music labels is called "Blood and Honor".

While I don't think that this is enough to cut the chant, I think that is absurd that "Utz Banzai" is too offensive and the new chant is more socially acceptable.

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1 hour ago, Ignithas said:

As an Austrian player the chant really reminds me of the chants of totalitarian regimes. I have seen hungarian facists chanting "Honor and Glory to our eternal Führer" and I have heard the following chant in Germany "Glory and Honor be to the SS!" and one of the forbidden music labels is called "Blood and Honor".

While I don't think that this is enough to cut the chant, I think that is absurd that "Utz Banzai" is too offensive and the new chant is more socially acceptable.

Exactly - at this point they might as well just cut the chant all together as bending to the anti-banzai outcry essentially makes the statement that no offense is too slight.  All we really need is some blogger to author a critical post including at least 1 irate opponent of the phrase.

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13 hours ago, phillos said:

 

The judges should have been prepped with a  FAQ.  Many of the things the OP brings up are things that have been ruled on and discussed well before PAX. Interesting that he received so many bad rulings, but it sounds like that wasn't everyone's experience.

The issue is that any info we receive via email while all good intentions are not official rulings and till we reiceve a FAQ we can' guarantee that what we have been told us correct. I make a point when sitting down to a game to discuss this with my opponent atm and because this is an issue.  I make sure that till we have a ruling for example that no looking at mulliganed cards otherwise it's just going to lead to bad habits when it's official one way or an another

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