Black Sheep (Hera, H-6, Han, Rogues in General)

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

Hey guys, trying out some stuff I don't ever use (on top of playing Rebel bombers, which I haven't really done seriously since W2 sometime), and looking for sugestions.

The idea is to maximize my burst anti-ship damage with late-squadron-phase rogue attacks from H6/H6/Hera/Han, then Han shooting first, and then Yavaris triple-double-tapping the 2 H-6s and either Hera or an X-wing, depending on positioning.  Jan + 2 X-wings are there to protect the ships primarily, and I've had fantastic success with their longevity and efficiency under Jamming Fields.  I expect to rely a lot on Grit to escape squadron defenses with my bombers, but all of my most important offensive squadrons have it, and I've always got Jan in my back pocket if I need her.  I brought Slicers to mitigate my vulnerability to activated squadrons in general and Sloane alpha strikes in particular.  They hurt, but I haven't been seeing a lot of Slicer defenses recently as everybody's using new hotness instead of Leia/Wing Commander/Weapons Liaison.  The threat of late-activating rogue X-wings and opening Han shots should do me some favors in initial squadron-phase clashes, and somewhat mitigate the drawbacks of my lower squadron speeds, while I still have the ability to activate them early if I need to with the supporting transports and Yavaris.  I really wanted to bring Wedge as one of my X's for this role, but couldn't find the points.

The MC30 can fill a number of roles depending on the matchup: bully, area denial, objective ship, survivor, follow-up, forker.  The H9/OE/APT combo is fantastic for quickly paring down opposing activation padding or support by one-shotting multiple flotillas and corvettes fast.  The very presence of the shrimp gives me an extremely powerful yellow objective (HA) and synergizes well with my red (PS), too.  Landonition, of course, is nearly un-one-shottable, and also extremely resistant to squadrons, giving me an ideal flagship that can still contribute to the fight without too much risk of losing it outright.  It's easy to dive it into the adversary flank to force the choice of flying into Yavaris squadrons or eating a shrimp's double arc, or to keep it back behind the squadrons to pin fleeing targets between the cloud of angry squadrons and the cloud of angry proton torpedoes.

I've tried this list out once and it worked well, but it was kind of a perfect storm matchup (opponent had dual Liberties, squadronless, and took my Superior Positions), so not really a great metric for overall performance, particularly in the squadron fight.

Alt Bombers III (397/400)
========================
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 49)
    + General Dodonna (20)
    + Lando Calrissian (4)
    + Ordnance Experts (4)
    + Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
    + H9 Turbolasers (8)
    + Admonition (8)
Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 + 11)
    + Flight Commander (3)
    + Fighter Coordination Team (3)
    + Yavaris (5)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 11)
    + Toryn Farr (7)
    + Jamming Field (2)
    + Bright Hope (2)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 11)
    + Leia Organa (3)
    + Bomber Command Center (8)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 10)
    + Hondo Ohnaka (2)
    + Slicer Tools (7)
    + Quantum Storm (1)
Hera Syndulla (28)
Han Solo (26)
Jan Ors (19)
2 x Scurrg H-6 Bomber (16)
2 x X-wing Squadron (13)
Hyperspace assault
Superior Positions
Precision Strike

Edited November 16, 2017 by Ardaedhel

[BrobaFett 4,209]

I'm a fan of Hera, but I don't know if there is space point wise for a 26 and 28 point squad in the same list without the sacrifice in terms of sheer longevity being an issue for the list. Reality is, you don't need to do much to cripple your damage output. Killing the 2 Scurrg's will probably be enough to make it so the threat to your opponents ships will be relatively little.

As much as I love them both, I think one of either Hera/Han maybe would just be better as another Scurrg and another X.

Edited November 16, 2017 by BrobaFett

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

1 hour ago, BrobaFett said:

Killing the 2 Scurrg's will probably be enough to make it so the threat to your opponents ships will be relatively little.

That's a good point, but do you think that's achievable enough to be worried about?  Between Jan, 2 X-wings, JF, and 6 hull each, I feel like there are other points that are more vulnerable in the list (e.g., snipe Jan then pin the bombers, rush Yavaris, counter-threaten with bombers, something like that).  If you have the squadron damage output to tackle the H-6's, I feel like Jan is the higher-priority target, all else being equal.

[SkyCake 1,183]

Interesting to see Han here, and I like your logic, just not sure his anti ship is good enough over ketsu, but could work... We're talking 2.5(Han last first) damage versus 1.5(ketsu) for four more points, 1 less speed. I really wish han was bomber, or cheaper.

 

Might want double Intel here, or a bunch of z95's to delay rogues in squad phase. Also haven is good at protecting them until the squad phase, but you got jamming...

[BrobaFett 4,209]

1 minute ago, Ardaedhel said:

That's a good point, but do you think that's achievable enough to be worried about?  Between Jan, 2 X-wings, JF, and 6 hull each, I feel like there are other points that are more vulnerable in the list (e.g., snipe Jan then pin the bombers, rush Yavaris, counter-threaten with bombers, something like that).  If you have the squadron damage output to tackle the H-6's, I feel like Jan is the higher-priority target, all else being equal.

Yeah, I just know that an interceptor heavy meta 2 X-wings, even with Jan, is going to give you maybe one real good turn of shooting with them before they are using grit and tanking damage themselves. The trade for more escort and more damage is a twofold remedy to keep those fighters in the game as long as possible. Plus, it puts you even for deployment.

Definitely a trade off from the utility of Han, but Giled brought him the other day, and it took 2 squads activations to kill him, and he only got one shot in. Definitely not a return worth the points invested.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

6 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

Might want double Intel here, or a bunch of z95's to delay rogues in squad phase. Also haven is good at protecting them until the squad phase, but you got jamming...

Yeah, I have a version that just uses Z95s as blatant squadron-phase activation padding, but I don't want to be the guy to kick off that particular stupid arms race.  Also, I only own 2. 

I am keenly aware of how effective GH is, you don't have to sell me on that, lol.  Just trying to go a little more stripped-down and see if it works out:  if a JF GR75 is good enough, that's a huge points saving for relatively little loss.  A lot of the choices I've made are attempts at cost-saving trade-offs, in fact.  Single Intel is another, trying to see if Jan + Grit is good enough to get sustained shots off despite my light squadron superiority cover.  Hondo is another, who is there to replenish Yavaris' squadron tokens without having to invest in a whole Comms Net GR75 (and do it in a last/first scenario, too).

We'll see how it goes. 

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

1 minute ago, BrobaFett said:

Yeah, I just know that an interceptor heavy meta 2 X-wings, even with Jan, is going to give you maybe one real good turn of shooting with them before they are using grit and tanking damage themselves. The trade for more escort and more damage is a twofold remedy to keep those fighters in the game as long as possible.

Yeah, that's definitely a point of vulnerability.  I'm seeing how close I can skirt the line of "too little fighter coverage" (see above), but you might well be right that I'm cutting it too close.

3 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

Plus, it puts you even for deployment.

Actually left those uneven on purpose.  I'm pretty sure I'm developing a nervous tic where my squadron count has to be even.  Call it exposure therapy for listbuilding habits. 

In seriousness, I think the even-count squadrons thing is less important with rogues in general and Han in particular, since you can tee up your last squadron-phase squadron activation to be a big Han double-tap threat.  Particularly in a list that already has 8 deployments, I think I can be ok with the uneven squadron count.  As uncomfortable as it makes me. 

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

Took this again a couple days ago for a 10-1 tabling against Imperial battleships with heavy squadron support. It wasn't the tightest squadron loadout (couple of escorts and JM2K over a spattering of fighter-bombers), but it was a strong 100+-point wing, covering a DC VSD2, Demo, Kittens, and a Gozanti.

The flexibility of those meaty rogues is ridiculous. Didn't lose a single squadron, and had time to assassinate his hard-hitting squadrons and still get the Arquitens finished off by the Han opener of Round 3. That Han opener is easy to dismiss on paper, but the number of times his Rogue double-tap has gotten me out of activation-order jams is ridiculous. He can finish off a beleaguered quarry that would've escaped, or soften up a fresh target that suddenly you're presenting an existential threat to it and unexpectedly forcing the other guy's activation order.

I'm not sure his absolute value is particularly high, but both he and Hera are rare enough that they can bring unexpected tactical options to the table. I've only used them twice and I can already see that a player with experience with these two can spring some nasty traps.

I think I might be sticking with this idea a little longer...

[Ginkapo 9,321]

Z95s are very very close to equal with xwings at bombing. 

Let that sink in. 

Its not an arms race but a natural conclusion.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

15 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Z95s are very very close to equal with xwings at bombing. 

Let that sink in.

Okay...? Yes, 2 Z-95's together are almost as good as 1 X-wing for bombing, but they're still less good. Both less reliable and less average damage with battery armament. They're also more expensive.

Regardless, though, they lack escort, so... Not really relevant points of consideration to a list that's taking them specifically for escort duty.

 

2 Z-95's:

1-(5/8*5/8)=60% chance of at least one damage

(.5+.5)=1.0 average damage

14/1=14 pts/dmg

1 X-wing (with BCC):

5/8=62.5% chance of at least one damage

(4/8*1+1/8*2+3/8*(4/8*1+1/8*2)) = 1.03 average damage (Dodonna crits aside)

13/1.03=12.6 pts/dmg

Edited November 20, 2017 by Ardaedhel

[Ginkapo 9,321]

Adding BCC is cheating...

[ManInTheBox 618]

I love what you're trying to do with this concept. It's too easy to just fall back into the same archetypes when you build a list. Your looking at each option and asking "but what else might work?".

I'm really pleased to see your successes with it so far.

 

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

Adding BCC is cheating...

BCC is already there so there is zero opportunity cost.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

1 hour ago, ManInTheBox said:

I love what you're trying to do with this concept. It's too easy to just fall back into the same archetypes when you build a list. Your looking at each option and asking "but what else might work?".

I'm really pleased to see your successes with it so far.

 

Thanks man. Definitely pleasantly surprised that it hasn't been complete junk so far.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

On 11/19/2017 at 1:05 AM, Ginkapo said:

Z95s are very very close to equal with xwings at bombing. 

Let that sink in. 

Its not an arms race but a natural conclusion.

Okay, I had totally forgotten we were taking about Z-95's earlier in the thread and I was really confused what you were saying here without that context.

You're certainly right that Z-95's are competitive with X-wings in a vacuum. They're not really that close to an X-wing on a 1:1 basis (3/5 as likely to deal damage and 2/3 the average damage, not counting crit effects), but being much cheaper obviously helps their efficiency a lot.

In this list, though, there are lots of contextual factors that benefit the X-wings. The spillover benefit of BCC is just the most obvious.

-Because I have bombers, I'm bringing Intel, which needs to be protected.

-Because I'm building for squadron survivability over alpha strike or upfront killing power, I'm doing that with the escort keyword instead of A-wing pinning or Ketsu or anything else--the X-wing brings that where the Z-95 does not.

-I'm using Jamming Fields to augment my survivability, which hurts smaller dice pools more than larger ones, diminishing the Z-95's normal advantage in antisquadron firepower.

-I brought Toryn because I'm not a fool, further narrowing the firepower gap.

-I brought a couple of different effects that benefit few, high-impact squadron activations more than multiple-low-impact ones--Hera and Yavaris both want high-impact individual activations.

-I have Dodonna and am bringing Precision Strike, both of which strongly benefit from the Bomber keyword beyond just damage dealt.

 

There are definitely scenarios in which the Z-95 is the better choice, I don't dispute that. One day I'll get around to acquiring enough of them--or just playing them on Vassal--and I can build something around them. In this list, though, I don't think they beat out the Jan X-wings.

[GiledPallaeon 2,873]

As the double Liberties that got trashed, I certainly think it's an intriguing concept. While it likes having Yavaris, our game proves that it's less vulnerable than many equivalent lists to having its carrier obliterated and the offending ship fleeing for hyperspace. I'm also going to disagree with conventional wisdom and say Han and Hera together is fine. It's expensive but it's a ton of capability. Landmonition is its usual self (pain in the a**), so I think it's solid. I'd want to take an Imperial squadron superiority list against it, but you have Landmonition to make up ground. I think you're on to something here, I really do.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

12 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

I'd want to take an Imperial squadron superiority list against it, but you have Landmonition to make up ground.

I agree, that's one of the two matchups I really want to try it against (the other is the GH/Yav Rieekan aceholes).  I'd be very interested to see how that shook out.  I think a really strong Imp alpha could probably burn through enough of the squadrons fast enough that losing the carriers behind them wouldn't matter much anymore, but I don't know.

[BrobaFett 4,209]

Ard-

You want to set up a friendly sometime to test it vs imperial squads? I have a number of sq heavy lists I am currently tweaking and fiddling that could use a good solid test.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

10 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

Ard-

You want to set up a friendly sometime to test it vs imperial squads? I have a number of sq heavy lists I am currently tweaking and fiddling that could use a good solid test.

I really do.  No idea when I'll be able to though--busy week.  I'll hit you up on PM.

[SkyCake 1,183]

On 11/20/2017 at 3:42 PM, Ardaedhel said:

I really do.  No idea when I'll be able to though--busy week.  I'll hit you up on PM.

I would like to see this.. But yeah, rogues are super sweet... 

 

Like if imperial doesn't attack in ship phase, they usually mosey up their squads in the squad phase for an alpha next turn...against rogues though, you can't do that as easily because rogues can still shoot you in squad phase if you get too close...

[SkyCake 1,183]

3 ship is good too

 

Madine rogues

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 400/400

Commander: General Madine

Assault Objective: Blockade Run
Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] MC80 Star Cruiser (96 points)
-  General Madine  ( 30  points)
-  Liberty  ( 3  points)
-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points)
-  X17 Turbolasers  ( 6  points)
-  Leading Shots  ( 4  points)
= 146 total ship cost

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
-  Admonition  ( 8  points)
-  Skilled First Officer  ( 1  points)
-  Ordnance Experts  ( 4  points)
-  H9 Turbolasers  ( 8  points)
-  Assault Proton Torpedoes  ( 5  points)
= 89 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
-  Bright Hope  ( 2  points)
-  Toryn Farr  ( 7  points)
-  Bomber Command Center  ( 8  points)
= 35 total ship cost

2 HWK-290s ( 24 points)
1 Hera Syndulla ( 28 points)
2 Scurrg H-6 Bombers ( 32 points)
1 Ketsu Onyo ( 22 points)
1 Dash Rendar ( 24 points)

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

55 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

3 ship is good too

 

Madine rogues

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 400/400

Commander: General Madine

Assault Objective: Blockade Run
Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] MC80 Star Cruiser (96 points)
-  General Madine  ( 30  points)
-  Liberty  ( 3  points)
-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points)
-  X17 Turbolasers  ( 6  points)
-  Leading Shots  ( 4  points)
= 146 total ship cost

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
-  Admonition  ( 8  points)
-  Skilled First Officer  ( 1  points)
-  Ordnance Experts  ( 4  points)
-  H9 Turbolasers  ( 8  points)
-  Assault Proton Torpedoes  ( 5  points)
= 89 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
-  Bright Hope  ( 2  points)
-  Toryn Farr  ( 7  points)
-  Bomber Command Center  ( 8  points)
= 35 total ship cost

2 HWK-290s ( 24 points)
1 Hera Syndulla ( 28 points)
2 Scurrg H-6 Bombers ( 32 points)
1 Ketsu Onyo ( 22 points)
1 Dash Rendar ( 24 points)

I like it! The dual HWKs are a great approach there, letting you forego escorts, and they don't even really care much that they don't have rogue since they're still doing their primary job even if they're not attacking.

My initial thought for the ship side of mine was to go low-activation, but then I ended up wanting BCC, JF, and a Slicer Tools anyway to support the squadrons. The activations help with positioning Admonition, too, since I don't have the Liberty covering Admo's positioning.

[ManInTheBox 618]

2 hours ago, SkyCake said:

3 ship is good too

 

Madine rogues

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 400/400

Commander: General Madine

Assault Objective: Blockade Run
Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] MC80 Star Cruiser (96 points)
-  General Madine  ( 30  points)
-  Liberty  ( 3  points)
-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points)
-  X17 Turbolasers  ( 6  points)
-  Leading Shots  ( 4  points)
= 146 total ship cost

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
-  Admonition  ( 8  points)
-  Skilled First Officer  ( 1  points)
-  Ordnance Experts  ( 4  points)
-  H9 Turbolasers  ( 8  points)
-  Assault Proton Torpedoes  ( 5  points)
= 89 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
-  Bright Hope  ( 2  points)
-  Toryn Farr  ( 7  points)
-  Bomber Command Center  ( 8  points)
= 35 total ship cost

2 HWK-290s ( 24 points)
1 Hera Syndulla ( 28 points)
2 Scurrg H-6 Bombers ( 32 points)
1 Ketsu Onyo ( 22 points)
1 Dash Rendar ( 24 points)

Blockade Run seems like an odd choice with only 3 ships.

What am I missing?

[SkyCake 1,183]

10 minutes ago, ManInTheBox said:

Blockade Run seems like an odd choice with only 3 ships.

What am I missing?

Well my thinking in run after playing it a few times now is that it doesn't matter how many ships you get to the endzone. What matters is how many your opponent kills...

So if you have 5 ships, and I kill 3, net is 40mov IF the remaining two score a touchdown, and that's one big if...

 

Of course there are other advantages to having fewer ships in blockade run, but I'll leave that for a larger discussion on blockade run itself, as I could take about blockade run all night... This objective is deep!

[MandalorianMoose 1,862]

On 11/22/2017 at 6:40 PM, SkyCake said:

Well my thinking in run after playing it a few times now is that it doesn't matter how many ships you get to the endzone. What matters is how many your opponent kills...

So if you have 5 ships, and I kill 3, net is 40mov IF the remaining two score a touchdown, and that's one big if...

 

Of course there are other advantages to having fewer ships in blockade run, but I'll leave that for a larger discussion on blockade run itself, as I could take about blockade run all night... This objective is deep!

I absolutely love blockade run with double ISD lists...There is nowhere to run from those front arcs!

Edited November 24, 2017 by MandalorianMoose