Supernatural Storm No Shugenja

[Casanunda 291]

A quick check to see if my interpretation is correct here, since this came up in a game last night:

• Am I allowed to play Supernatural Storm if I currently have no Shugenja in play?  In other words, does giving a character +0/+0 constitute a change in game state? 

I said no, it doesn't, therefore you can not play SS with no Shugenja; please correct me if I'm wrong.  This is relevant for Hida Kisada's persistent effect.

[Suzume Tomonori 543]

Hm... in other situations you have an issue where the card's effect can't legally resolve (you can't dishonor someone who is already dishonored, for example.) However here the card's effect does indeed resolve, it's just that an increase of zero is pointless. I'm not sure whether this constitutes a change in game state or not; a bonus is applied, but since it is zero it doesn't really matter.

It feels like it should be a legal play (you are burning an otherwise useful card, after all) but I'm not sure how this interacts with the "must change game state" rule. I'm interested in hearing other thoughts on this myself.

[InquisitorM 632]

2 hours ago, Casanunda said:

A quick check to see if my interpretation is correct here, since this came up in a game last night:

• Am I allowed to play Supernatural Storm if I currently have no Shugenja in play?  In other words, does giving a character +0/+0 constitute a change in game state? 

I said no, it doesn't, therefore you can not play SS with no Shugenja; please correct me if I'm wrong.  This is relevant for Hida Kisada's persistent effect.

You are correct. With no shugenja in play, the effect does not have the potential to change the game state. Thus, it will not initiate.

[Soshi Nimue 101]

When you're considering what creates a change in game state you cannot consider costs, hand size, or potential reactions / cancels.

You made the right call. 

edit: Rules Reference page 5 - Costs bullet 5

An ability cannot initiate (and therefore its costs cannot be paid) if its effect on its own does not have the potential to change the game state.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Soshi Nimue

[Casanunda 291]

11 hours ago, InquisitorM said:

You are correct. With no shugenja in play, the effect does not have the potential to change the game state. Thus, it will not initiate.

Thanks for the info, I thought this was the correct ruling, just wanted to be sure.

13 hours ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

It feels like it should be a legal play (you are burning an otherwise useful card, after all)

I remember from a previous thread about this that losing a card was NOT considered for changing the state; I believe it has to be the EFFECT that has the potential to change the state.  I remember thinking along the same lines myself.

[yujufrazer 29]

sucks then you cannot dump it to use up kisada's cancel

[Hellvlad 171]

But it changes the game state. The targeted charter gains an attachment. Which actually an important details for some cards like the dragon stronghold for example.

[LuceLineGames 131]

10 minutes ago, Hellvlad said:

But it changes the game state. The targeted charter gains an attachment. Which actually an important details for some cards like the dragon stronghold for example.

The targeted character doesn't gain an attachment.

[Hellvlad 171]

Just now, LuceLineGames said:

The targeted character doesn't gain an attachment.

...

For any reason I remembered this card was an attachment, like any spell in Old5R.

I'll see myself to the nearest exit ..

 

[LuceLineGames 131]

1 minute ago, Hellvlad said:

...

For any reason I remembered this card was an attachment, like any spell in Old5R.

I'll see myself to the nearest exit ..

 

It's worth noting that there is no game state change requirement for playing attachments, but there is a game state change requirement for using triggered abilities on attachments.

[Gomeso 2]

Hmm why should it not go ? If you raise +0/+0 all is legal targeted.

 

you raise your stats of the value of 0 

 

you should dumb kisada legally 

[LuceLineGames 131]

10 minutes ago, Gomeso said:

Hmm why should it not go ? If you raise +0/+0 all is legal targeted.

 

you raise your stats of the value of 0 

 

you should dumb kisada legally 

0 is not a change from 0, so it doesn't meet the 'potential change in game state' rule to initiate the ability.

[Gomeso 2]

2 hours ago, LuceLineGames said:

0 is not a change from 0, so it doesn't meet the 'potential change in game state' rule to initiate the ability.

But you change the game state of playing a card legal cause you play it you put her into discardpile so it would still trigger kisada you never have to change the set of your char the card is legally played and can trigger kisada 

[Horizonshard 38]

According to the Rules Reference (pg 16) "A triggered ability can only be initiated if its effect has the potential to change the game state on its own. This potential is assessed without taking into account the consequences of the cost payment or any other ability interactions"

Supernatural Storm has the triggered ability "Action: Choose a participating character -- that character gets +X[Mil] and +X[Pol] until the end of the conflict.  X is equal to the number of Shugenja characters you control."

Trying to play Supernatural Storm when you have no Shugenja in play is trying to cause an effect that would give a character +0 Military and Political strength.  This is not a change in the game state and thus cannot be legally played due to the quoted Rules Reference passage above.

The card being played from your hand and going to the discard pile are not part of the effect and thus do not get taken into account when deciding if the game state has been altered by the effects of the triggered ability