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Jackalopejay2

One complaint with Android

27 posts in this topic

Disclaimer:  As a whole, I love this game and have had a great time playing it.

There is just one issue I have with the game.

This game is all about Theme and Storytelling and that is a great thing, but for some reason with the conspiracy puzzle, you get +4 victory points for completing a row, column, or diagonal.  These pieces can (and usually do) have nothing to do with each other except for adjacency.

This makes no sense in Theme or Storytelling.  It just seems tacked on for the Euro Game Crowd.  It would make much more sense if you got +4 victory points for making the connection between a faction and the conspiracy.  It also makes for an interesting strategy decision.  Do I make the connection to Mayor Wells and score +4 Victory points when my opponent has 7 Political favors stored up, or do I block the connection, not get the VP to make sure my opponent doesn't make the connection.

Just my 2 cents.  Its a small gripe in an otherwise great game.

JackalopeJay

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Just throwing my bit in - Played with my gf + friends today, she was a little behind in absorbing the rules, but she understood the "bingo" aspect of conspiracy tiles completely - allowing her to compete where the others were hording favors/baggage looking at the "bigger picture". This was great for that reason - ordinarily the "noob" in these kind of games fall way behind in VP's.

As for theme, not sure - maybe your character is "starting to make sense" of the conspiracy. How can your character know about the puzzle pieces that others have placed? For me its gossip & here-say, news media etc. Might be silly/non-canon but I like the way you can fill the gaps with your imagination. This game is like a good book for me, not everything has to be how & why - especially with a game so rich in theme as Android.

But, c'mon, Flying cars? :P:P:P

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About flying cars:

DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) has recently started a Personal Air Vehicle Technology research project.

Also, there were flying cars (Spinners) in Blade Runner. So there. :)

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Flavor wise, Kevin Wilson did an amazing job. It has a setting, story, characters, and mechanics that basically all make sense with each other. As for the conspiracy issue, It seems like you'd be getting points for seeing that everything is connected, which you'd do by obtaining bingo status.

 

Oh, as for flying cars, there have been prototypes already made. We'll undoubtedly get them before we get an elevator to the moon.

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I wouldn't be so sure. The space elevator is fuelled by Nasa's Elevator:2010 project. There have been more advancements made than with flying cars.

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In the books of  Arthur C. Clarke are space elevators a normal thing. I think i read it in the second book of the space odyssey circle. So those ideas are all taken from old scifi themes like blade runner etc.

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Shuriken36 said:

Oh, as for flying cars, there have been prototypes already made. We'll undoubtedly get them before we get an elevator to the moon.

Flying cars are one of those things we probably could do, but probably shouldn't do.

Have you ever been sitting at an intersection, and the light goes green so you push on the gas, and the car stalls?

Now imagine that, only you're eight thousand feet in the air above a densely populated urban center, and your car is full of rocket fuel.

Congratulations. You're Slim Pickens.

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Eldil said:

Shuriken36 said:

Oh, as for flying cars, there have been prototypes already made. We'll undoubtedly get them before we get an elevator to the moon.

 

Flying cars are one of those things we probably could do, but probably shouldn't do.

Have you ever been sitting at an intersection, and the light goes green so you push on the gas, and the car stalls?

Now imagine that, only you're eight thousand feet in the air above a densely populated urban center, and your car is full of rocket fuel.

Congratulations. You're Slim Pickens.

But if we had flying cars, then all of the trafiic rules would be different. You likely wouldn't even have intersections.

Probably you would just slide onto an "offramp" that would curve around and up (or down) allowing you to merge with a stream of traffic going in another direction. You would probably have periodic "offramps" that would go down to ground level, or close to it, which you would use when you were getting near to your destination.

About the real topic, I haven't played the game yet, but it does seem to me that the OP has a good point. I'd rather have bonus points for linking people to the conspiracy, rather than just making a row of tiles that might not connect anyone.

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I would agree that it doesn't make much "Thematic" sense, but I think that it makes sense from a "Gameplay" standpoint - it keeps the Conspiracy relevant to the game.  If you draw a bad piece, that piece isn't instantly a waste - it could be used to complete a CRD (column, row, diagonal).  If the person/group that you want linked in the Conspiracy has been blocked, then you could focus on the CRDs.  If your character isn't as good at the puzzle, it still gives you a chance to jump in and get 4 points from it.  It also forces the players contributing to the Conspiracy to make a similar choice JJ outlined in the OP - do I make this connection and give someone else a shot at completing a CRD, do I complete a CRD myself and risk having my connection blocked, etc?

JJ, I actually think that your VP idea sounds pretty cool, and I'm agreeing with you that it doesn't make much thematic sense, but I do think that it can contribute positively to the gameplay.  Perhaps you could try your variation a couple of times and let us know what kind of a difference it makes on the game?  Perhaps one of the FFG Team could shed some light on why CRDs are in and other ideas (like JJ's) are out?  Perhaps I should go to bed, because I've gotten less than 4 hours of sleep a night for the past 5 nights?  How do I know that I'm not asleep right now and this is all just a dream?

Yep, definitely tired.

alterego2012

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While we have only played one game, the row/column/diagonal was the MAJOR component in one players overwhelming victory.  I agree that it does not make thematic sense (other than the investigator becoming obsessed with uncovering the conspiracy).  In the end, I believe it was poor play choices of the rest of us (allowing the player to be in a constant position to complete the rows (along with a bit of luck.)

It was just annoying to see this element be such a dominant factor in the victory of the game (completing a link "feels" better.

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It seems to me that the 4 point tiles provide an incentive to complete the conspiracy instead of dead-ending all of the paths. If the conspiracy is completed, then there will also be more victory points scored by all players, which compensates for one player getting the 4 tiles.

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Allen Doum said:

 

It seems to me that the 4 point tiles provide an incentive to complete the conspiracy instead of dead-ending all of the paths. If the conspiracy is completed, then there will also be more victory points scored by all players, which compensates for one player getting the 4 tiles.

 

 

Surely that would actually be *more* the case if the 4VP chips were awarded for completing paths between the conspiracy and orgs rather than just getting 5-in-a-row?

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Bleached Lizard said:

Allen Doum said:

 

It seems to me that the 4 point tiles provide an incentive to complete the conspiracy instead of dead-ending all of the paths. If the conspiracy is completed, then there will also be more victory points scored by all players, which compensates for one player getting the 4 tiles.

 

 

Surely that would actually be *more* the case if the 4VP chips were awarded for completing paths between the conspiracy and orgs rather than just getting 5-in-a-row?

The point is if you connect a Conspiracy path, you are probably already getting additional VP for that connection (otherwise, why complete that particular path).  You don't need motivation to extend paths.  But if you have no motivation to extend the path, you can get extra points by completeing "tic-tac-toe" which might give other players points since the Cnospiracy ling was established, or won't give them points because you screwed them.

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How about the above (or in another thread?) suggestion stating that only 1 of the +4 VP tile can be earned on any given turn?

That seems a fair comprimise...no?

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As people may have seen from my other posts, I also do not like the simple +4VP for finishing a row of 5.  It is easy points, granted for doing nothing special.  This is out of balance with the other points.  There are a few suggestions:

1. Only 1 conspiracy token is awarded per turn if any row of 5 is completed.  This fixes the situation with a player easily being able to get 8 or 12VP for doing very little.

2. Make the conspiracy tokens worth less.  I'm now ruling that they are only worth 3, but may even drop this down to 2, since there are plenty of other good things and ways of getting VP from the conspiracy itself.  The free favour / baggage on the back of the puzzle pieces, plus the bonus on the front of the puzzle piece is far superior to placing a random piece of evidence on a suspect that might do absolutely nothing for you

3. Only give conspiracy tokens away to someone who completes a row of 5 as long as they are actually linking up two sides.  I'm not really sure what I mean here, so I'll shut up now.

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This rule is like it is because not all detectives can get favors so easily, so there is usually no point for you to make a connection to earn 4 extra points if this usually give other players a lot more VP

But even if your character isnt very good at conspiracy or gaining favors, you can give some piece to it to cut off a link and/or earn points... if it was only for complete connection, it just give some detectives easy VP, because they needs to connect that anyway... I remember when i played louis, most of points was from favors i had, but i also make that favors be connected to earn VP... with 4 VP per connection, it could be so much easier to win ...

Of course, you can make conspiracy VP tokens reward for "not making a connection", for those who doesnt want to make it.... but it wouldnt be so easy ...

Anyway this is a bad rule, it looks good for thema, but not for its game purpose.... Now it is usually not cumulative, you have to choose if you make a connection, or if you complete a row/col/diagonal instead ...

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Sorry for bringing up a REALLY old post.

Last weekend was the first time I played the game. For the most part, I was given the basic understanding of the rules, however I just kind of played along not expecting to win, but to take in the game so I could play better next time.

Out of all the complaints I have (most are nitpicking complaints), this is the biggest one. Thematically, it doesn't make sense that a conspiracy is completed halfway through a story, and that's what happened during our game. The 4 VP for a row or column basically encourages everyone to get those puzzle pieces on the board ASAP. Additionally, during this game, a lucky player was able to start their turn with 3 open spots that would complete a row/column. Just for being next in line, he got 12 VP for doing absolutely nothing (didn't connect anything). Thematically, you could write this off as the character screwing the rest and being part of the conspiracy and covering up any loose ends, but 12 VP for being the lucky person to go next just doesn't make sense to me.

I like the idea of limiting the scoring this way to once per turn. For example, once you finish a row or column, you get your one +4 VP chip. You may place more puzzle pieces on your turn, but you cannot receive any more VPs from completing rows/columns. Additionally, if maybe you are lucky enough to place one piece to finish both a row and a column, you can get two +4 VP chips (I can live with that).

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angus of one said:

Sorry for bringing up a REALLY old post.

Last weekend was the first time I played the game. For the most part, I was given the basic understanding of the rules, however I just kind of played along not expecting to win, but to take in the game so I could play better next time.

Out of all the complaints I have (most are nitpicking complaints), this is the biggest one. Thematically, it doesn't make sense that a conspiracy is completed halfway through a story, and that's what happened during our game. The 4 VP for a row or column basically encourages everyone to get those puzzle pieces on the board ASAP. Additionally, during this game, a lucky player was able to start their turn with 3 open spots that would complete a row/column. Just for being next in line, he got 12 VP for doing absolutely nothing (didn't connect anything). Thematically, you could write this off as the character screwing the rest and being part of the conspiracy and covering up any loose ends, but 12 VP for being the lucky person to go next just doesn't make sense to me.

I like the idea of limiting the scoring this way to once per turn. For example, once you finish a row or column, you get your one +4 VP chip. You may place more puzzle pieces on your turn, but you cannot receive any more VPs from completing rows/columns. Additionally, if maybe you are lucky enough to place one piece to finish both a row and a column, you can get two +4 VP chips (I can live with that).

What if a player places a corner piece that creates three 5-in-a-rows?  Should they get 12VPs?

Check out the link in my sig for a variant that tempers the conspiracy puzzle a whole lot, and is a hell of a lot more thematic.

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Bleached Lizard said:

What if a player places a corner piece that creates three 5-in-a-rows?  Should they get 12VPs?

According to the rules they would.  And that's exactly what can happen if you don't control the conspiracy or consider where you are going to place leads.

I don't disagree that the conspiracy puzzle provides many benefits and can seem overpowering.  For us, the puzzle is typically completed after about 2/3 into the game.  But not everyone goes after puzzle pieces all the time.  Depending on which investigator I'm playing, I will wait until there are several pieces laid out.  I am also guilty of taking advantage of a nearly complete row, column, or diagonal for the extra VP.  It's just another strategy.  

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The Conspiracy Puzzle has the potential for really big points as you say, but the strategy is something like Reversi (a.k.a. Othello).  Corners are very powerful in Reversi because the opponent can't flip your piece over.  The opponent knows that so they are going to be reluctant to play the pieces next to the corner on the edge because it's a "weakening" move.

It may be similar in the Conspiracy Puzzle of Android:  if you're just giving the chance for multiples of 4 VP to be awarded to someone else, and not to you, there's a tendency to avoid the weak next-to spots in the puzzle.  So  people would ABSTAIN from laying a puzzle piece in those spots, maybe do something else instead, so it lends a balancing effect.

Another balancing effect is that every puzzle piece laid has to extend at least one of the linkage lines.  People are trying to direct the pipes to certain edges that benefit the outcomes and Favor tokens they hold, so some spots will not have linkage lines leading into them and won't be playable for row, column or diagonal completions.

 

If 5-in-a-row windfalls still bother you, try a house rule where any puzzle piece about to be placed on the edge MUST either

  • have a linkage line connecting into one of the Conspiracy groups, not into an empty part of the edge, OR
  • be an "Elbow" or "T" piece turning a linkage line 90 degrees, so the linkage lines are now parallel to the edge without actually connecting to the empty edge.  The linkage lines parallel to the edge may be extended by new pieces until a connection to a Conspiracy group is made, but the linkage line for the new piece can never touch an empty part of the edge.  Linkage lines can still "dead-end" facing into the interior of the puzzle. 

EXCEPTION:  The Jinteki and Haas pieces are Conspiracy groups within the puzzle area.  The stubby linkage line above the building icons may touch an empty edge with no effect, since it is NOT actually touching the top of the JInteki or Haas building icon.   I believe if this stub happens to connect to a Conspiracy on the edge, it's a broken connection, does not act as a conduit for the Conspiracy, and doesn't count.

The player can always choose to discard a piece instead of placing it (why give somebody else a multiple five-in-a-row?) If a puzzle piece can't legally be played, it MUST be discarded.  The rules say that Benefits from Shift Pieces, Favor Pieces and Baggage pieces are immediately scored when you draw them (after adjusting your marker to the least-important remaining pile of pieces), and so are bonuses from the icons printed next to the linkage lines, even if the piece is discarded.

What do people think?

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i think that the puzzle can b 2 powerful, however as i am usually the person who goes 4 all the scores from that part of the game i cant complain. 4 vp's is very impactful and other players 2 get annoyed at it, i like it though, as a game function. maybe 3 vp's though wud b better. it does make other players feel like they r outtinga  lot fo effort in2 a murder whilst u r playing a separate game

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Hi all!

I have a "thematic" suggestion to get a "more nice feeling" about the row/column/diagonal VP award:

But i will start with a broader concept change:

First of all, here is what I feel what the game is all about: It is a murder case of course, and we have a captain that is under pressure to bring the crowd what they want: Justice and a murderer that will be hung on the next tree or something like that. There are several suspects, who may not leave town until evidence-gathering is closed.

A murderer HAS to be found. It is neither possible that nobody of the suspects was the murderer, nor that the murderer gets killed and the case is closed.

Some other suspect will be found guilty then.

This is noir setting and the pressure on the captain is great to get the job done. Now he is the captain and has a team of detectives that will work together to give him what he needs, the evidence file that will bring justice to one of the suspects in a murder trial in court.

BUT the team does not cooperate! Why?

My guess is that the captain is under pressure to being able to close the case soon, and every detective is eager to shine and take the credit boost with his boss, maybe get promoted (like hinted in the one murder case where the guilty hunch is worth +5 VP), make the "parent" corporation (Floyd, Caprice) happy, that "their" detective got the job done, you get the picture.

The one detective that seems most competent in the eyes of the captain in bringing the most convincing evidence in the case to close it, will get the praise.

Detectives who get distracted by marriage problems, personal identity crisis, friends in need, or being often in a drunk state will not impress the captain much.

It doesnt really matter for the detectives, if they can frame the "real" murderer. If the evidence and alibis that they can dig up individually form a more convincing case than the file of the other competitors for the murder, they will win high praise from the boss, thats all that matters for each detective. The chosen "victim" of each detective is probably the one they can, as professionals, assume to have the biggest chance to frame and get away with. After all, each detective has a different background and contacts and skills.

Whenever a lead is followed, the detective at the location puts the evidence ,that pleases his cause most, in the file and hides the rest of info under the carpet, to only frame "his" suspect. Of course as professionals, the detectives know what they can get away with and dont want to anger the boss with obvious false information, so the "with no second guess infringing" information varies from low to strong (1-5 points)

However sometimes the detective stumbles on information that can make a suspect of the other, competing detectives, look less guilty and make the detective look like a beginner that did *oversee* that evidence  that clearly contradicts his work and make the captain think he (the other detective) is incompetent.

Both things work well for each detective to get *his* guilty hunch to be found guilty and let the other detectives look like amateurs compared to himself, regarding a possible promotion.

I think you get the picture and of course, thematicaly, lots of cards play very well into that theme, especially the ones that i remember with louis blaine, the cop who is sometimes by use of light cards fiddling with evidence, LOL. He knows the ways to do it and get away with it. But as all do it, he is simply a little bit more experienced (being corrupt and all) in doing that fiddling with evidence.

But anyway, the ability that each detective can *buy* alibis for suspects looks clearly like a strong case that none is interested to find the *real* murderer, but to make his own file look *stronger*, (or placing hits for that matter).

 

Ok, but you ask yourself, what does this all have to do with the puzzle? Here it comes: My interpretation with the puzzle and why it fits in PERFECTLY in this noir scenario where the detectives "work for their own cause":

There is one question i would like to ask: What is the puzzle, and why would you get rewards for the puzzle?

Now in a scenario where the detectives happily work together to uncover a sinister and evil plot in a murder case and make the world a safer place, so that everybody can sing "Kumbaya" and be happy, you *might* argue, that linking some organisations to an evil murder will bring the population peace and joy as they now know that that organisation is dealing in shady things and is connected to a murder case. You might imagine that this organisation will be getting a lot of FLAK in the future, dont you? And of course the one detective who uncovers that would get the praise for that, right?

Obviously, that the detectives are not cooperating, nobody can deny. They are actively trying to look better than the competitors for the captain for a future career boost etc.

Now lets assume you argue: OK about that competition , nobody can deny there is competition about who gets the case right, but if a detective uncovers a link that frames one organisation to the crime, he should get extra praise, no?

My answer is : yes and no!

Yes, if the detective uncovers a piece of the conspiracy, it should make him look more competent in the eyes of his boss, BUT:

Why should a detective get extra VP if one organisation is framed for being connected to the crime, simply for having favors to that organisation.

It would be logical to assume that the organisation is thankful for NOT being displayed as being involved in a crime:

Imagine the following situation: Louis Blane has successfully  aquired some favors for some organisation and linked them to the crime too. He wants to visit the organisation and brings his (lets say) 4 favors with him (Favors are currency, remember) .His contact man says something like: "Oh Mr. Blaine! Welcome! We had some minor sales repercussions (34%) among our clients and our analysts say it is because the media is covering our strong links to the unpleasent murder case where strong links (3 of them) are leading towards our organisation as being the culprit and we have found out it was you who uncovered this. Anyway, what can we help you today (smiling)?

Is that *thematically* plausible to all those who say there should be an *extra* reward for this?

Would you not imagine that Blaine should rather watch his back when he enters the organisation *ever* again?

I say "NO" about extra praise to link an organisation to a crime and reap extra benefits from having favors to that organisation, how does that make sense? You link someone to a crime and expect applause from them? They would be glad if you had used your "assets" to let them look like completely innocent in this case, wouldnt you think so? THEN, if you have favors to ask of them, they would roll out the red carpet for you, NOT if you have proved them involved in such an evil task.

Obviously, my interpretation needs some out of the box thinking from the start, but it is *thematically* backed up by the part where i explained why the detectives are competitors and *don´t* work together: And here it is and it covers the following points:

1.: "The detective that is uncovering the conspiracy and giving information about the *bigger picture" gets some extra praise from the captain" and/or "he can use that information for his future career in future cases or personal dealings with that organisation (information, that he kept secret from his boss); the "future" is not covered in the game, but it sounds plausible in the thematic interpretation of mine, that the detectives all use the murder case AND the conspiracy to further their own power and influence, get promoted or gain other positive influence and power for the future.

2.: "The detective does get benefit from linking certain groups by the use of tiles, if he has the criteria from the groups."

How does that make any sense? Wait, here comes the BOMB!

Imagine, a detective who is placing a tile of the puzzle is simultanously giving the boss (or himself) an understanding of the *bigger picture* (in this case specifically, or in general for his personal use). He should be, thematically, rewarded. However some pieces of information are *harder* to obtain compared to others. Now placing a conspiracy piece in a corner or edge is harder to place than placing a conspiracy tile in the middle ( 2 or 3 possible routes to the tile (possible links from edges) as opposed to 4). It can be expected that placing a corner piece is a potential 12 VP (it has only 2 access possibilities) as opposed to other pieces of the conspiracy who have 3 or 4 access sides.

My interpretataion is:

Everytime a detective is placing a piece of the puzzle, he is linking some organisations to the crime (that is whenever an organisation is in contact with *any* puzzle piece, it is involved in the murder case) if it is the piece is adjacent to the *link* of the organisation, but, if he is making a *link* so there is a line (or several) to the center piece, the detective has given the organisation a kind of alibi that is plausible to the public. If he *links* the organisation according to the rules more than once, he can expect more thankfulness from the organisation to *NOT* being viewed publicly as being responsible for the murder case.

THAT would make thematically more sense that the organisation, where you have favors with, would see the detective who make them look innocent and not involved would be very thankful. As opposed to an organisation that is thankful for being linked to the murder, now the latter would really not make that much sense would it?

As a result, if you have favors to ask from an organisation, that you can choose to *link*  or *link not* , would you, *thematically* link them them to something that is detrimental to them or would you not?

I can understand if this concept seems mindboggingly reversed to your thinking so far, but try to follow my idea.

Now, organisations that are not linked at all to the crime (not adjacent to any puzzle piece) have no reason to be thankful, (the investigator gets no VP for them too, there is no *link* as defined in the rules) but, those that are linked to the crime (adjacent puzzle piece) but are *linked* according to the rules, have a lot of reasons to be thankful, bc the detective could have used his "skills" that he displays to set his hunch as top guilty suspect, to show the organisation, that he has ties (favors) to, that it was him that made them look guilty or innocent and demand a return favor for that. If he has linked them according to the rules, he is making them look innocent (ofcourse if the organisation is involved in the crime, it is thankful for that and favors get VP for that) or he has linked them to the crime (by not linking them ruleswise).

Everytime a detective is finishing a row, column or a diagonal, he is giving either a bigger picture to his boss or keep it for himself for further use, in any way, if he is obtaining useful information (interpretatation: 5 pieces in a row, column or diagonal), he is rewarded a VP total of 4, bc it benefits him in the future.

Questions and thoughts all welcome.

One more note to all who who are confused now: Assume that the linking lines from the crime to the different organisations are a kind of alibi.

there are 3 possibilities:If an organisation is linked to the crime according to the rules, it has its dirty fingers involved in the crime, however the police is viewed( and any detective who fullfils the condition that is listed at the *link*, like favors) to have been beneficial in the public view of the organisation, therefore the detective gets some benefits from the organisation in the future (VPs).

If an organisation is not linked to the crime (link as in accordance to the rules),BUT has a piece of the puzzle adjacent to his, then it is viewed as being involved in the crime (in public), but none of the detectives has used his assets to divert evidence from the organisation, they are not linked (as linked in rules) so thematically, the organisation has no reason to be THANKFUL to ANY detective (there is no link ruleswise that any detective can use), (no reward for the *NOT*-link) as they all did their job to uncover the organisations involvement.

If an organisation has no piece of the puzzle adjacent to it, it was not involved in the murder and couldnt be framed either, there was no reason to expect detectives to bend the public view of them favorable, so there is no reason either to give them detectives any extra thankfulness (VP).

 

Questions and thoughts all apreciated!

 

 

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Wow, LastManStanding, your really though this through.  I didn't see you post this later.  Perhaps start your own thread with this concept as the title to get people feedback (and mention it's incorporating the +4 issue in this one.)  Maybe then you'll get a response.

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I bought this game a couple of weeks ago - probably because of the controversy that it seems to have generated and a desire to know what all the fuss is about. My understanding of the Conspiracy puzzle goes as follows: (Happy to be corrected if I am wrong).

There is no obligation to start 'uncovering' conspiracy links. A detective who chooses to do so needs to understand the 'risk' factor. By placing pieces you allow others to make connections that may not take the link lines where you want them to go and once several tiles are placed there is the potential for opponents to complete a 5-tile row and gain some VPs. This makes thematic sense when allied with the 'paranoia' that pervades New Angeles and the 'disturbed psyches' that seem to abound in the game. Some people will make connections at all costs even if they really lead nowhere and just muddy the waters: a connection is a connection is a connection and some credit is surely due 'thematically' for seeing links at the crime scenes... even if the links lead to deductions that are false. This also means that should a detective wish to play the conspiracy puzzle and take advantage of the tile backs (and these advantages become very desirable as the game progresses) some thought must be given to the fact that there is usually a price to pay: the piece will be placed and may help someone else score points. This means you need to place your tiles strategically and if you don't want someone else to get '5 in a row' don't pick up a tile! Once conspiracies start they can REALLY get out of hand and out of your control.

 

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