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Biophysical

If you're still building your gunboats around missiles, I'm pretty sure you're doing it wrong.

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You need to actually go over the game-tape, but then you can measure how many shots each ship has, and how many it missed because it didn't have a K-turn.

 

When we start doing X-wing Community-Mod open beta testing it would be neat to start crowdsourcing various data analytics like this.

Edited by MajorJuggler

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51 minutes ago, xanderf said:

This might already be doable using the VASSAL league data.

How I'd dig into it, if I was doing the analysis:

  1. Pull the names of everyone who has run gunboats in a VASSAL league match and won it (IE., some indication that they are 'figuring out how to make them work' successfully)
  2. Use that list of names, and pull all their VASSAL matches over the past 2 months
  3. Excluding the matches they flew gunboats, using something like the Lady Luck analysis, note down these player's typical 'number of attack sets rolled' vs their opponents typical 'number of attack sets rolled'.  Note this as the typical ration for that person
  4. Then do the same comparison as #3, for their gunboat matches.  Thus, on an individual-by-individual bases, you can get a comparison if their ratio of attacks made vs their opponent stays the same, increases (seems unlikely), or decreases when running a gunboat vs 'whatever else they were running'.  Notably, you may be able to ever put a ballpark figure to the % decreased (IMHO, the expected result), which lets you calibrate the impact to the jousting efficiency

I'm not sure this will give useful statistics.  Even winning Gunboats will have fewer overall shots because they'll just kill stuff so fast.  You might look at percentage of turns where they rolled attacks with Gunboats.  

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1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

OK, so if we ignore the movement and line of sight limitations for the moment and focus on the ships' big strength - the ability to dish out a massive first turn alpha strike, either via cannons or ordnance - where do the Gunboats match up in the biggest Alpha lists in the game?

I'm guessing PS10-11 Imperial Aces, triple Deadeye Scurrg and quad Deadeye Vaksai are probably going to be up there in terms of raw first turn damage output.  How do the Gunboats match up?

HLC Gunboats are on top because their action is free to modify and their EPT is open for Crack Shot, which lets you cut through Reinforce in a very satisfying way.

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6 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

HLC Gunboats are on top because their action is free to modify and their EPT is open for Crack Shot, which lets you cut through Reinforce in a very satisfying way.

Hmmm... then again, one of them should be ps killed by alpha-aces and alpha aces can hug that range one bubble afterwards...

I think in a direct matchup, alpha aces come out on top. Against the meta, however... who knows?

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7 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

Hmmm... then again, one of them should be ps killed by alpha-aces and alpha aces can hug that range one bubble afterwards...

I think in a direct matchup, alpha aces come out on top. Against the meta, however... who knows?

I interpreted the question as max damage.  The Gunboats do have max damage, but not necessarily the advantage in every alpha vs alpha matchup.  In the direct ace matchup, they probably each kill one ship, which probably does leave the advantage to the aces, but I do think it's a game that can be won by either player, because the aces are pretty stripped down.

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Don't know if you're going to see lot of alpha v alpha

Scouts had many advantages that basically every other alpha platform lacks, especially blocking potential and action independent full mods with pwts

But the boat at least boasts a sustained four dice offense, which scum carriers simply don't have

I don't see ps 5 scum alpha becoming a thing as they only really counter ps 4 boats and just sorta suck otherwise. Haven't seen many high ps ace alphas either all that much 

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7 hours ago, Biophysical said:

I'm not sure this will give useful statistics.  Even winning Gunboats will have fewer overall shots because they'll just kill stuff so fast.  You might look at percentage of turns where they rolled attacks with Gunboats.  

Agreed, I'm getting far fewer shots with gunboats but also need a lot less.   My games with them have been over in 8-9 turns, and that doesn't happen with most of my lists.

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On 19/11/2017 at 7:04 PM, Biophysical said:

HLC Gunboats are on top because their action is free to modify and their EPT is open for Crack Shot, which lets you cut through Reinforce in a very satisfying way.

This might have been covered in the previous 9 pages but doesn’t Deadeye on Harpoonboats get around the target limitation and dice modification?  

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2 minutes ago, Xerandar said:

This might have been covered in the previous 9 pages but doesn’t Deadeye on Harpoonboats get around the target limitation and dice modification?  

It gets around the target limitation, but no longer allows use of the title, because you have to have a lock to use the title.  This, in turn, hurts the overall efficiency, because you need go reload or buy more ordnance to get extra shots, whereas the HLC does not need to reload.  HLC can also take Crack Shot instead of a missile launch aid.

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1 minute ago, Xerandar said:

This might have been covered in the previous 9 pages but doesn’t Deadeye on Harpoonboats get around the target limitation and dice modification?  

Unfortuntely, Deadeye doesn't work with OS-1 - you still require a Target Lock to fire after SLAMing, and SLAM is the only way Gunboats can reposition.  Even with Deadeye, you're running up against an action economy wall when using ordnance.

Now, HLCs don't work with the XG-1 title either, but they can be fired without actions as a set up.

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Just played one game with Wired, HLC, LRS, Linked, Karsabi, and one game with a missile version of Vynder, and man, now I see the difference. Karsabi was a fun puzzle on when to attack and when to disengage. Vynder, on the other hand, after he hit with the Harpoon, I immediately realized how useless he was. In my opinion, if you want a cheap Alpha strike, go with TIE Bombers with LRS. They give alot of bang for their buck. I have to agree with OP that cannons are where it is at for these guys. I will definitely play with Karsabi in the future!

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27 minutes ago, SirCormac said:

Just played one game with Wired, HLC, LRS, Linked, Karsabi, and one game with a missile version of Vynder, and man, now I see the difference. Karsabi was a fun puzzle on when to attack and when to disengage. Vynder, on the other hand, after he hit with the Harpoon, I immediately realized how useless he was. In my opinion, if you want a cheap Alpha strike, go with TIE Bombers with LRS. They give alot of bang for their buck. I have to agree with OP that cannons are where it is at for these guys. I will definitely play with Karsabi in the future!

One game is not a good way to get a measurement.

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3 hours ago, SirCormac said:

Just played one game with Wired, HLC, LRS, Linked, Karsabi, and one game with a missile version of Vynder, and man, now I see the difference. Karsabi was a fun puzzle on when to attack and when to disengage. Vynder, on the other hand, after he hit with the Harpoon, I immediately realized how useless he was. In my opinion, if you want a cheap Alpha strike, go with TIE Bombers with LRS. They give alot of bang for their buck. I have to agree with OP that cannons are where it is at for these guys. I will definitely play with Karsabi in the future!

I think you have 2 options with Vynder

High PS control: VI, Assault Loadout, Flechette Cannon, Linked Battery, Advanced Slam. 34pts. You will want to Slam a lot with this yo keep his defence high but at PS 9 you should be able to maintain arcs through Slamming, yeah you move forward a lot but you can also turn. Your damage output is low and Flechette can’t do more than 1 stress but having a reasonable stress mechanic is Empire at all is a plus. 

Double Action Hunter: PTL, Missile Loadout, GC, Harpoon. 35pts. You will be reloading a lot and taking green moves a lot. There will be times when you just need to bug out but green 2 bank Slam 2 anything is going to be pretty handy for that. This has a much higher damage curve the control version but is more restricted in how you use your actions. However sometimes you just reload focus and that’s great. I think my main problem with this is how often you need to swap target lock. It almost makes a range 1-2 Missile feel better but of course none of those are that good. 

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One major problem with all of this...RAClo + Ace of choice just crushes this list.  One, if your lucky, of those HLC boats isn't going to fire before it's wiped off the board.  If you're unlucky you're looking at one total shot between those two gunboats before RAClo + Ace blows them to smithereens.  

Sorry to burst everybody's bubble here, but all of these builds I'm seeing are vastly inferior to anything RAClo right now.  These lists do sounds super fun tho, so funwing away!

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`Anybody else get the feeling that 1 Gunboat may be the magic number? A Crack HLC boat is pretty much built to be a slow rolling flanker, especially since the SLAM allows it to cover ground and adjust position really well on the initial approach. Combine that with a Defender/SF + Pocket Ace and you are forcing your opponent to choose between a rock and hard place. 

 

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Just to further extrapolate how terrible of a matchup HLC boats are against RAClo...

In your best case (realistic) scenario you are going to be down a ship with  RAC at around half health and out of blindeds.  I say realistic because any top level competitor is going to make sure their RAC Wing mate ace doesn't get in HLC arc of the remaining boat.  

So unless you are confident that one HLC boat plus your remaining ace can take on a half health RAC plus his wing mate then this, again, is a major meta problem for this list.  Regional season is going to be chalk full of RAClo + QuickDraw/Soontir/Vader/Whisper/Countess/Vynder.   If you are at a major disadvantage in this important matchup then you'd be making a serious mistake taking HLC boats to a major event (Regionals +).  Once Kylo crew has been weeded from the meta a bit, then perhaps you can revisit.  

I know this is going to make Biophysical upset I'm trashing his idea, but the truth is it just flat out won't work in a Kylo crew dominated meta, which is what we are about to see from the Imperial faction.  

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Nah. I have been a supporter of the gunboat from the beginning and I still see the XG-1 HLC build not much better than B-wings.
If we could make an squad with 3 Dagger B-wings with the exact same configuration as the gunboat (even equipping upgrades they don't have slots for, and accepting that they go up to 102 points), I don't think they would be in a much better place than they are.
In fact, I would even bet that B-wing would be in a better position than the gunboats thanks to their koiogran. They would be able to at least attack more often.
Yes, I know. All of this is a fantasy because B-wings cannot equip Crackshot, HLC, LB and LRS. I am just talking about the ship frame here.


SLAM doesn't save you from retaliation fire. And once a pursuer gets behind the gunboat, it will never get to fire back again if the pursuer keeps their chase. Even if you double turn with SLAM, you opponent still has to do their move, and they probably expect the double turn it coming. And if you double turn, you cannot fire anyway.
The gunboat should have got some card to allow it to lose the SLAM action in exchange of allowing it to treat the red 4 straight as a koiogran. SLAM isn't that useful as repositional action if you can't drop bombs, don't have a turret, and cannot attack with proper damaging weapons after SLAMming.

I don't really complain. From the beginning I said that the gunboat should be the Empire's equivalent of a B-wing. And that is what it virtually is in this game. So at least I got what I wanted.
It's just that competitively speaking, a Glaive or Ryad  TIE/x7 Defender with Crackshot will live longer and, consequently, deal more damage for exactly 1 point more than the usual HLC, LB, LRS, Crackshot Rho. Right?

TL;DR: I think the gunboat is best at using control cannons, that fit their XG-1 title much better. With HLC they are worse choices than T/Ds, and after the initial pass, they struggle to come back to the fight.
Problem is that control isn't going to win you a match in this meta.

Edited by Azrapse

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6 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

TL;DR: I think the gunboat is best at using control cannons, that fit their XG-1 title much better. With HLC they are worse choices than T/Ds, and after the initial pass, they struggle to come back to the fight.

Problem is that control isn't going to win you a match in this meta.

Why not both?

Lieutenant Karsabi (24)
Wired (1)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Linked Battery (2)
Long-Range Scanners (0)
XG-1 Assault Configuration (1)

Rho Squadron Veteran (21)
Crack Shot (1)
Flechette Cannon (2)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Long-Range Scanners (0)
XG-1 Assault Configuration (1)

Rho Squadron Veteran (21)
Crack Shot (1)
Flechette Cannon (2)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Long-Range Scanners (0)
XG-1 Assault Configuration (1)

Total: 99

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1 hour ago, Waaaaaampa said:

Just to further extrapolate how terrible of a matchup HLC boats are against RAClo...

In your best case (realistic) scenario you are going to be down a ship with  RAC at around half health and out of blindeds.  I say realistic because any top level competitor is going to make sure their RAC Wing mate ace doesn't get in HLC arc of the remaining boat.  

So unless you are confident that one HLC boat plus your remaining ace can take on a half health RAC plus his wing mate then this, again, is a major meta problem for this list.  Regional season is going to be chalk full of RAClo + QuickDraw/Soontir/Vader/Whisper/Countess/Vynder.   If you are at a major disadvantage in this important matchup then you'd be making a serious mistake taking HLC boats to a major event (Regionals +).  Once Kylo crew has been weeded from the meta a bit, then perhaps you can revisit.  

I know this is going to make Biophysical upset I'm trashing his idea, but the truth is it just flat out won't work in a Kylo crew dominated meta, which is what we are about to see from the Imperial faction.  

Why do you think I would be upset?  You might be right about RAClo.  I do have to point out that trading a Gunboat for half of RAClo and the two Blinded Pilots is actually a really good deal.  If the Gunboats have, say, Fel, RAC will have a pretty hard time bringing him down (unless it's Vader/Gunner/Kylo, which happens, but is pretty rare compared to Emperor).  So if the Gunboat side can finish off the opposing ace before it loses Fel, things get interesting.  

I also think you may be overstating the ease with which an ace can both dodge big HLC arcs and do damage to take one off the board rapidly.  I don't thing the boat side has a big advantage or anything, but I thinkcitscpretty far from a hard counter.  Who knows, we'll see.

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2 hours ago, Azrapse said:

Nah. I have been a supporter of the gunboat from the beginning and I still see the XG-1 HLC build not much better than B-wings.
If we could make an squad with 3 Dagger B-wings with the exact same configuration as the gunboat (even equipping upgrades they don't have slots for, and accepting that they go up to 102 points), I don't think they would be in a much better place than they are.
In fact, I would even bet that B-wing would be in a better position than the gunboats thanks to their koiogran. They would be able to at least attack more often.
Yes, I know. All of this is a fantasy because B-wings cannot equip Crackshot, HLC, LB and LRS. I am just talking about the ship frame here.

 

XG-1 Nu is 3 points cheaper than a Blue Squaddie

XG-1 Rho is 2 points cheaper than a Dagger

linked, LRS and potential crackshot make it sail far and away from anything the B-wing could ever dream of accomplishing.

no, FCS is not a substitute for linked or LRS because it gives you an incredibly unreliable alpha strike. To put it very simply, 3 gunboats will reliably kill a Wookie gunship before it fires. B-wings will be lucky to even get it to half health

lastly, the B-wing dial is piss. There's nothing easier to predict or block than a 2k (literally can't K past a large base), so I really don't rate it as being worth having red banks and no 3-turn

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Could someone smarter than me please explain why Lightning Reflexes isn't better than Crackshot on Rhos, especially with how much of the thread has talked about the GUNBOAT's lack of turn around options?

Please, thanks, and HAIL GUNBOAT.

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14 minutes ago, DXCrazytrain said:

Could someone smarter than me please explain why Lightning Reflexes isn't better than Crackshot on Rhos, especially with how much of the thread has talked about the GUNBOAT's lack of turn around options?

Please, thanks, and HAIL GUNBOAT.

I think it's really good, but in a vacuum, Crack Shot helps cut through high defense ships.   It can be the difference between killing a ship on the first pass and leaving one alive.  All that being said, I definitely don't think it's settled, Crack Shot is just easier to think about.

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