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Magnus the Pious

Long term play for this edition...

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HedgeWizard said:

mac40k said:

 

willmanx said:

  Concerning ADVANCED CAREERS, I've searched everywhere and I haven't found rules about it in WFRP3... Am I blind or what ? What is the exact restriction to start an advanced career ?

 

 

WFRP Rulebook, pg 28, Chargen Step 2: To determine the character’s starting career, the player shuffles together all the basic career cards not in use by other characters, and draws three careers at random.

You can't start in an Advanced career. When changing careers then, at a minimum your current career and the Advanced career will have one trait that is not in common.

As for completeness. It was fairly obvious from the start that the Core Set was never intended to provide a "complete" game. No Halflings (coming in a later supplement), incomplete Wizard/Priest spell/invocation lists (coming in a later supplement), Slim Bestiary (looks like we'll get a few more in the campaign box), etc. Heck, they've even hinted at the possiblity of additional types of dice. It was also a given from the start that the system was designed to allow easy expansion and that all expansions would be boxed sets adding new careers, action cards, talents, locations, items, etc. along the way. Long term play is dependant on future releases, which is what FFG is counting on to have a viable product line. Now whether or not the pace at which they release material keeps up with any given group is questionable, but the fact that the game costs what it did and is incomplete and/or will cost you more if you want to keep playing it was fairly well known going into it. Really can't believe people are surprised to find out that FFG intends for you to have to buy more product.

Seriously, how many threads back in the old days were started by someone looking to get into 2e with the question, "What do I need?" Only to be answered by the vast majority of people, "Just the core. Now if you want to spend more, here are some of my favorite supps, but really all you need is the core." That model doesn't have long term profitability. The other route is to release an "incomplete" game that requires you to buy future expansions to be able to keep playing. The risks with this model is that you have to release product quickly enough to sustain interest without overwhelming your customer base with too many costly expansions in a short period of time. Some people will play through the existing material and be champing at the bit for the next expansion while others on a tighter budget may feel they can't keep up, so finding the right balance is a key marketing decision. At some point they also risk the amount of product being overwhelming to new players, but at least new players can still get it piecemeal and at their own pace.

The game does have long term playability. The core set does not. If they don't release product quickly enough to keep pace with your individual group's pace you have the option of starting another campaign (maybe Gathering Storm) with new characters or putting your game on hiatus until additional expansions are made available. Whether or not you are willing to continue to spend money is also going to depend on your own budget and whether or not you are enjoying the game enough to keep doing so. Since I'm sure FFG intends to keep making money from this product for several years, I wouldn't expect the game to be anywhere close to "complete" anytime soon, if ever.

Is it more expensive than many other RPGs? Yes, but personally, I am enjoying this game more than any other in recent memory. I look forward to additional expansions and running out of play room anytime soon is not currently an issue for either of my groups. I think my money was well spent and I look forward to giving FFG more of it.

 

 

Once again, Mac40k comes in and says exactly what I would have said, only better.  

I concur he is the voice of reason.

 

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Gallows said:

This is a different kind of rpg in terms of the way they release it. Personally it's one of the things I find exciting about the game. 

 

Agreed. I think it mostly comes down to whether or not you find the episodic nature of the product releases interesting/financially reasonable/timely given your group's schedule. Given what's happening in my real life, this set-up is perfect for me and my players, and I love the idea of having a constant stream of new releases to buy, but I do understand the reservations of others who want to play more often and have less cash. (I would have loved this system when I was in grad school, but I would have exhausted it quickly and not been able to afford the supplements.)

Let's face it, though. Most of us have been run out of a system we loved by decisions on the part of the publisher/designer that didn't fit our needs. You just move on and find a new game that works better for your group. FFG has made a firm decision about how they plan to release and supplement the game; I don't think complaining on the boards is going to change their long-term plans, although you might get the satisfaction of pointing back to your posts and saying, "I told you so!" if it turns out they've miscalculated and the game goes under.

...but I bet they haven't. :)

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As I live in a country that adheres to principles like freedom of speech, and as far I know, FFG resides in one of those countries too, I will state my opinion, even if others dont like it.

For the part with "if the miscalculate, their game will go under" ... there isnt only black and white. Not all games that rock survive, and not all games that suck die. Many factors influence a games survival, and perfectly viable game can be canceled because it lacks player base, and good games can be shut down by their publishers because other things gain them even more money.

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rparavicini said:

 

As I live in a country that adheres to principles like freedom of speech, and as far I know, FFG resides in one of those countries too, I will state my opinion, even if others dont like it.

 

 

 

Uh...this isn't a freedom of speech issue. 'Freedom of speech' means that the government can't restrict your speech; it actually doesn't give you the right to say whatever you like on privately held forums, and it certainly does not mean that people can't suggest that your stance is futile. Honestly, though, I wasn't asking you to stop speaking. I was just pointing out that your speech is unlikely to have its desired effect. FFG probably won't change any of the things you don't like because those changes would require big shifts in their business model.

I'm not quite seeing why people who dislike the game are coming here, then arguing that they feel silenced by all the people who love the game. You're coming to game's official forums. Official forums are much more likely to contain fanboys/girls. I can think of at least three other forums where these arguments would meet with the enthusiastic acceptance you seem to crave. Why not go elsewhere if all you want is agreement? If you say you're here because you want change...well, that's why I said I don't think you'll get it. You might have the eye of the game designers here, but I doubt you'll get them to make significant changes.

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 I'll agree as well that I like the episodic nature of releases that FFG are planning. When I'm really pumped about a game it's very exciting to have releases to look forward to. WFRP3 has the potential to maintain my interest with each new release, whereas if new releases consisted solely of supplement books, I am very much less inclined to purchase a book on a topic that I don't see as immediately useful to me. If each new WFRP3 release contains more bits and cards to expand the base game, I'm more likely to buy them. I think they have made a smart decision for the financial longevity of the game line, and personally I have no problem with throwing my expendable income at a game that I like.

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 ROFL. Freedom of speech. Usually quoted by folks who want others to limit theirs when they argue a point made.

"I don't like X"

"Well, that's short sighted and..."

"Hey, don't shout me down, I'm free to speak here"

"Yup, and so am I"

Sorry, not directed specifically at any poster here, just strikes me as funny when someone uses it 'shame down' others expressing theirs as well.

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@keltheos: if the point you wanted to make is simply to state something about freedom of speech, i accept your statement and just point out that general discussion about freedom of speech is not really the point of this forum and thread, at least IMO.
If you wanted to point out that this statement would fit in this argument here, i have to object, as I simply did not want to be told "if you dont like something, suck it up and dont tell anyone" which was implied by the poster before me

@llanwyre: since when do human rights only apply to governments? when have I said that I dislike the game? I like the colorfull dice, the cards (all of em, especially the wounds), the balance and all, I simply dislike some points like career management, time management and recuperation.

I stated my opinion, its not the same as that of the majority, I accept that, so please accept that I disagree, and stop telling people that you disagree with to shut up or go away ;)

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willmanx said:

 Concerning ADVANCED CAREERS, I've searched everywhere and I haven't found rules about it in WFRP3... Am I blind or what ? What is the exact restriction to start an advanced career ?

 

It's on the advanced careers cards. They have some requirements.

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Here are the requirements (in their entirety):

Acolyte (order/focus) - Only completed apprentice wizards can enter this career

Disciple (faith/focus) - Only completed Initaites can enter this career

Flagellant (insantiy/repute/focus)- onlyc completed zealots or  has acquired 2 permanent insanties

Giant slayer (tactic/tactic - Only a dwarf troll slayer who has slain a troll (or comparable feat) can enter this career

Witch Hunter (repute/tactic) - Only zealots or someone with a permanent insantiy can enter this career.  NOTE:  a character who was a zealot wastes both of his talent slots!

* Each advanced career requires advances to be spent according to "the formula" of how relevant your last career was to the new one.

 

In comparison, you lose your old talent slots:

Troll Slayer (tactic/tactic) - no loss here

The ZEALOT (focus/insanity)

 

:)

 

Jay H

 

 

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One House Rule we made in our group is that Elfen Sowrdmaster is also a Advanced Career.
Requirements are: minimum Rank 2 and and at least one finished Combat Related Career. The Swordmaster has to have contact to elven community to aquire his sword. Then he is allowed to enter the career.
Only Swordmasters are allowed to buy Swordmaster-Action Cards or Rank 3 Characters with access to a teacher (will cost gold or boons)

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Lautrer said:

One House Rule we made in our group is that Elfen Sowrdmaster is also a Advanced Career.
Requirements are: minimum Rank 2 and and at least one finished Combat Related Career. The Swordmaster has to have contact to elven community to aquire his sword. Then he is allowed to enter the career.
Only Swordmasters are allowed to buy Swordmaster-Action Cards or Rank 3 Characters with access to a teacher (will cost gold or boons)

 

Yeah same here. Sword master, iron breaker and wardancer are all advanced careers that require you to have completed one career completely that has the combat trait.

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Gallows said:

Lautrer said:

 

One House Rule we made in our group is that Elfen Sowrdmaster is also a Advanced Career.
Requirements are: minimum Rank 2 and and at least one finished Combat Related Career. The Swordmaster has to have contact to elven community to aquire his sword. Then he is allowed to enter the career.
Only Swordmasters are allowed to buy Swordmaster-Action Cards or Rank 3 Characters with access to a teacher (will cost gold or boons)

 

 

 

Yeah same here. Sword master, iron breaker and wardancer are all advanced careers that require you to have completed one career completely that has the combat trait.

same here, across the ocean.

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That is an awesome idea to make those careers advanced (consider it swiped).  For consistency with the other adv. careers then the careeers should be modified to include the following (which is the only diff between a basic and advanced career):

1.  TWO additional trainable skills

2.  Character RETAINS prior combat career ability card (only one career)

jh

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Emirikol said:

That is an awesome idea to make those careers advanced (consider it swiped).  For consistency with the other adv. careers then the careeers should be modified to include the following (which is the only diff between a basic and advanced career):

1.  TWO additional trainable skills

2.  Character RETAINS prior combat career ability card (only one career)

jh

You capturing what I was hoping for in "advance careers" being release.  To date my wishlist

  • Additional wound to purchase (one to three more)
  • From three to four stats that can be trained (vice 2 for basic)
  • + 2 more skills able to train
  • Three slots to attach talents / order cards to (vice 2 for the basic)
  • Ability to use two career cards simultaneously (vice one for the basic)

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nub5 said:

 

  • Additional wound to purchase (one to three more)

 

 

Do you mean in addition to the 1-4 wounds that you can already purchase each career?

nub5 said:

 

  • From three to four stats that can be trained (vice 2 for basic)

 

 

 

If you are going to allow four of the six stats to be trained each career, you may as well just allow all of them.

nub5 said:

  • Ability to use two career cards simultaneously (vice one for the basic)

I'm not sure what you mean by this. You already can keep your previous career's special ability after completing it. Are you saying that you want characters that are simultaneously rat-catchers and pit fighters? 

 

 

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Magnus the Pious said:

I have noticed combat does feel repetitive lately as I mentioned earlier with the fixed damage and multiple usage of the same cards.

 

I'm still wondering why combat damage isn't linked to the number of successes on your attack check. Anyone have though on this?

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 Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of a weapon DR then, or would you just make that a modifier? Seems like the same thing if you use STR+DR the same as it is now and just add on a wound per success.

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Silverwave said:

Yeah, but I meant like 1 success = 1 wounds, 2 successes = 2 wounds, etc.

 

You could add this to any attack:

[2 Boons]: +1 damage

But then what would you add to social actions to compensate?

 

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I've just got 3rd and am already concerned about the long term prospects.

It just reeks too much of an 'exapnasion pack to continue' philosophy.
It also seems to have deliberately left out most the advanced careers to force a purcahse of that expansion pack when it comes.
Why sell one box when you can leave half out and sell the punters that as an expansion. Better yet split it into a whole bunch of expansions.

You didn't get that in 2nd. It was a complete system. Apprentice wizard right up to master wizard, Thief to Crimelord etc.
The expansion books for 2nd added lots, but you did not need to have them to play. Here I am not so sure. It all seems half a game - buy the packs to complete the game itself. Not addon's but core parts disguised as addons.

Also the whole thing has a board game feel about it all. Special 'our game only' dice, cards and tokens. Too many board game mecahnics for an RPG. That all smacks of things added to up the price and get more out of the punters pocket. And when draining your pocket is the key aim, decisions on content are more likely to focus on what can we deliberately leave out for the next box, rather than what is needed to play the game.

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It's true that the core set is limited in terms of advancement, but... You bought it for a reason, right?

It must have appealed to you. I'd say, give it a chance. It's a very innovative, elegant and classy game. Yes, it's got lots of bits but they are gorgeous (which may not matter to you but it does to me) and most of them (I'd say all of them, except for the stance rings) are very useful.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm not into it for the long haul at this moment. I intend to play short mini-campaigns with Warhammer, like movies that stand on their own, instead of a long "television show" campaign. In my opinion, that's the approach favoured by this system and I welcome it.

 

 

 

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