Seastan

Bolg and Quick Ears

14 posts in this topic

Bolg says:

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The first Goblin revealed each round gains surge.

The Door is Closed! says:

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Response: After an encounter card is revealed from the encounter deck, cancel its effects and discard it if there is a card with the same title in the victory display.

If I cancel the effects of the first Goblin revealed during the round with The Door is Closed!, does it still count as the first enemy revealed that round? Or was it never revealed, and the next Goblin I reveal will gain surge?

Quick Ears says:

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Response: Exhaust a Dúnedain or Ranger hero to cancel an enemy card just revealed from the encounter deck. Then, shuffle it back into the encounter deck and reveal an additional encounter card.

Is the situation any different for Quick Ears, where I cancel the entire card, not just its effects?
 

Edited by Seastan

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I am sure that this will be answered better by others, but I was under the impression that the key word here is 'cancelled', which means that the card/effect technically didn't really happen.

So, The Door is Closed! cancels the effects, and not the card, but Bolg adds surge to the card. I would say that it counts as the first enemy, but the surge is cancelled.

In the latter case it cancels the whole card, so it would not count as the first revealed. But that may well be wrong

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Don't know, but here are some thoughts: when you cancel a card's effects, the fact that "a card was revealed" is not cancelled.  The basic game mechanic of "reveal 1 card per player" still gets satisfied.  You don't have to reveal a new card unless the cancelling card specifically says so, like with Quick Ears or Eleanor, but not with A Test of Will or The Door is Closed!

So, either that card was "untyped" and its traits also are cancelled, and the only thing that the game knows is that "a card" was revealed, OR it retains its type, traits, and other portions of the card like its flavor text (hey maybe someday we'll have a card that keys off of flavor text, hah!), which would satisfy Bolg's Surge.

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I agree with monkeyrama's assessment, but just to play a devil's advocate: in Netrunner, there was an extremely controversial ruling wherein, basically…

 

* One player's card said, "The first time a card is trashed this turn, such-and-such effect."

* The other player's card said, essentially, "Once a turn, remove a card from a game instead of trashing it."

 

And it was ruled that when the other player's card did its thing—a replacement effect akin to a cancellation effect—it turned off the first player's card ability for the rest of turn. Even though the first card "trashed" wasn't, in fact, trashed, the game framework added it to the ledger for the purpose of "first" references anyway.

It was byzantine, and eventually one of the cards in the interaction was straight-up errata'ed to clarify the issue. Still, the point is that it's not always clear what "first" means in LCGs, which is kind of what Seastan is getting at.

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6 hours ago, monkeyrama said:

I am sure that this will be answered better by others, but I was under the impression that the key word here is 'cancelled', which means that the card/effect technically didn't really happen.

So, The Door is Closed! cancels the effects, and not the card, but Bolg adds surge to the card. I would say that it counts as the first enemy, but the surge is cancelled.

In the latter case it cancels the whole card, so it would not count as the first revealed. But that may well be wrong

I think that sounds reasonable. What do you make of the text "reveal an additional encounter card" on Quick Ears though? Doesn't this imply that the cancelled card was in fact revealed?

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37 minutes ago, Seastan said:

I think that sounds reasonable. What do you make of the text "reveal an additional encounter card" on Quick Ears though? Doesn't this imply that the cancelled card was in fact revealed?

I was going to go and look at Eleanor, but her card is not that useful in this case because she was written before they starting to (try to) standardise wordings, and her text is weird:

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Response: Exhaust Eleanor to cancel the "when revealed" effects of a treachery card just revealed by the encounter deck. Then, discard that card, and replace it with the next card from the encounter deck. 

Frodo in Black Riders says:

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Response: Spend 1 Fellowship resource and exhaust The One Ring to cancel the effect of an encounter card just revealed from the encounter deck. Shuffle that card back into the encounter deck and reveal another encounter card.

All the encounter cards that use the word 'additional' obviously don't cancel the previous card. Frankly, if I'm honest, I don't know what the game has to say about cards being cancelled. @GrandSpleen's point, if correct, would mean that this is a way to lessen Bolg's power, because the Surge would be cancelled on the card, but you'd still have revealed the card, so no other card gains Surge. I suppose it comes down to whether or not cancelling a card also cancels it's type(!) or just the effects...maybe ask the developers? :D I'm inclined to think that 'additional' is just to specify with consistent language that you are revealing another card, since they seem to ditch the 'next card' text from Eleanor after the Core Set (it's used on Grima and the Lonely Mountain).

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I'm agree that Bolg add a text to the ennemy so if that enemy is canceled you also fully counter the Bolg effect, that mean that the next enemy would not have surge.

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23 hours ago, Seastan said:

I think that sounds reasonable. What do you make of the text "reveal an additional encounter card" on Quick Ears though? Doesn't this imply that the cancelled card was in fact revealed?

A minor note on this. FAQ 1.54:

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When an encounter card is canceled, the game proceeds as if that encounter card was never revealed, except for it still fulfills that encounter card reveal.

(Emphasis added.) Given that, I think you can hand-wave Quick Ears' "additional" into making sense. Sort of. Friggin' Quick Ears.

Edited by sappidus

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1 hour ago, sappidus said:

A minor note on this. FAQ 1.54:

(Emphasis added.) Given that, I think you can hand-wave Quick Ears' "additional" into making sense. Sort of. Friggin' Quick Ears.

Ah, good call. Yeah, I think that works. The additional therefore is just to clarify that you have cancelled the encounter card revealed but still have to reveal one to replace it as a separate reveal. I think that helps a lot with the situations described above.

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Yes, nice find. So since it fulfills that encounter card reveal, is it clear then that the next card revealed after Quick Ears cannot be the first enemy?

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I have asked to Caleb (that I thank).

This is the answer:

Hi Emilio,
If you cancel the first Goblin revealed with The Door is Closed or Quick Ears, it is still the first enemy to be revealed. Canceling that card also cancels the surge granted to it by Bolg’s ability. If you reveal another Goblin enemy after the first one, it will not gain surge because it is not the first Goblin revealed that round.
I hope you’re enjoying The Battle of Five Armies!
Cheers,
Caleb

 

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On 11/15/2017 at 1:20 PM, Emilius said:

I have asked to Caleb (that I thank).

This is the answer:

Hi Emilio,
If you cancel the first Goblin revealed with The Door is Closed or Quick Ears, it is still the first enemy to be revealed. Canceling that card also cancels the surge granted to it by Bolg’s ability. If you reveal another Goblin enemy after the first one, it will not gain surge because it is not the first Goblin revealed that round.
I hope you’re enjoying The Battle of Five Armies!
Cheers,
Caleb

 

Thank you!

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Mmm .. i'm not with Caleb .. if you cancel a complete card, then this card was never in the game. 
@Seastan: I think about your list of points what happened by revealing a card and where to cancel effects a time ago, where Quick Ears and Wingfoot interacts a common way .. so i you can't use Wingfoot of a canceled enemy via Quick Ears, how can Bolg interact with that enemy and add an effect?

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5 hours ago, JanB said:

Mmm .. i'm not with Caleb .. if you cancel a complete card, then this card was never in the game. 
@Seastan: I think about your list of points what happened by revealing a card and where to cancel effects a time ago, where Quick Ears and Wingfoot interacts a common way .. so i you can't use Wingfoot of a canceled enemy via Quick Ears, how can Bolg interact with that enemy and add an effect?

Hmm. You're right this does seem at odds with the Wingfoot ruling.

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