Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Grodark

Some Questions that need answers

Recommended Posts

some Katas say target suffers damage dose that damage ignore armor? Rushing Avalanche style and spinning blade style  are the 2 I have seen that do this.

Can you target someone in earth stance with Open hand style and if so why if not why not?

why is Lord Shiba’s Selflessness only usable once per session? It would be better if once per scene  would make the shiba yojimbo seem more like a yojimbo

Again I will mention that earth stance is over powering there is very few things that can over come  it  and when combined with heavy armors makes it very hard to hurt someone in earth stance and heavy armor.

unless everyone is running around with  heavy damaging weapons like tesubo it will cause very long drawn out fights  unless there all in town some place where heavy armor is forbidden. 

I also think people have the wrong idea behind wargear  you can not hide some of the wargear items and when you come into a town and are headed to an inn the peasant cast will not go running to the headman every time they see  a tesubo or naganata this has to be explained to people  that it's like openly displaying a upside down cross in a  church it will get you looks but none is calling the cops.

Why can I not  make a sword and while making it  think well I could make the scabbard look like a cane or a   strange staff or walking stick. (not a katana or wakizashi ). I should not have to turn a sword into something other than a sword  to do this

(it might be considered dishonorable or worse if caught with it in court or other inappropriate place) (I am talking the water opportunity of crafting adding or removing   wargear and/or concealable)

I am sure there is more stuff like this  if others would post there questions and maybe have a developer put in some answers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Carrying an upside down cross in church is going to make people think you are rude, but not necessarily dangerous. Walking around in heavy armour and/or carrying a weapon of war is really a lot more like walking around in military battle dress armed with a carbine: if you are in the right uniform for the country you are in people might not assume you present a danger to them, but they will wonder what is going on and quite a few will check with you or local authorities; if it’s the wrong uniform you can bet there will be trouble though. Now: your Rokugan your way. I’m not telling you you’re playing your game wrong. I do think the norm differs quite a bit from what you posted above though.

Edit: regarding drawn out fights, almost any situation where heavy armour can be worn without consequences will allow the same with wargear weaponry. Pretty much the only two situations I can think of when that isn’t true are a) an honor duel you show upmfir wearing ceremonial armour (and you might have to justify this anyway) or being granted an audition with a lord in wartime and not having time to take of your heavy plate.

Edited by nameless ronin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for the concealed sword thing, that’d be dishonorable whether you get caught or not. It doesn’t become honorable just because you get away with it, honor is an internal quality. It won’t do your reputation (read: glory) any good to be found carrying a concealed weapon though, and if you do so in a situation where carrying weapons (beyond your wakizashi or a tanto) is not permitted the assumption will be you meant to cause harm with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then how one is to get their tesubo or other wargear weapon to the inn there staying at with out causing a  peasant  to go running to there local lord for every visiting samurai?

First unless it's a small village  their is a gate they pass through where they present their travel papers and are asked what there doing in the  area then after that they may be detained  and searched and asked more questions then their permitted to go  about there business .  No where in that process unless their arrested  do their weapons get confiscated. So from what I can understand the way everyone is seeing wargear is that as soon as a peasant sees a wargear weapon they go running to the local guard  and this happens all the time for everyone heading to the inn  this seems off.I think the peasant would notice might have a bit of fear but not go to the guards  cause they know the person was allowed into the city. now a small village they might go to the headman who would go with a couple guards and ask the samurai how he may be of help and what the samurai is doing in his village if the samurai dose not go directly to the headman as he is supposed to  do out of respect for the local lord. People seem to forget there's a process for this stuff  that's why the description in the wargear section dose not say  anything about it causing a panic or major fear.and no mention of  negative  effects  to the person wearing the gear but the person they cause strife to gaining 1 more strife cause of their nervousness of the person in the wargear.

now socially I would say that wearing armor   not in your lands is a taboo and can cause an insult to the local lords saying they can not protect there land or as far as someone about to attack their lands.

there has never been anything on carrying  your weapons inn a village or city just where you put your weapons and do not carry  them  such as court, a friend's or superior's home.

I think a lot of people that think a war weapon like a gun would have a hard time living in an open carry state. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Grodark said:

some Katas say target suffers damage dose that damage ignore armor? Rushing Avalanche style and spinning blade style  are the 2 I have seen that do this.

No, AFAIK. Check the Resistance sidebar on p. 145

10 hours ago, Grodark said:

Can you target someone in earth stance with Open hand style and if so why if not why not?

By a conservative reading, no: Open Hand Style inflicts a condition. Though forcing the target to change stance doesn't seem to be a persistent effect, technically. So who knows.

10 hours ago, Grodark said:

Why can I not  make a sword and while making it  think well I could make the scabbard look like a cane or a   strange staff or walking stick. (not a katana or wakizashi ). I should not have to turn a sword into something other than a sword  to do this

(it might be considered dishonorable or worse if caught with it in court or other inappropriate place) (I am talking the water opportunity of crafting adding or removing   wargear and/or concealable)

By a strict reading of the main opportunities table, you can, but it costs 4 <OP>.

Also, "I should not have to turn a sword into something other than a sword to do this" is a simulationist argument, but there aren't a ton of simulationist mechanics. 

Edited by sidescroller

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Grodark said:

some Katas say target suffers damage dose that damage ignore armor? Rushing Avalanche style and spinning blade style  are the 2 I have seen that do this.

It doesn't say it ignores Resistance.
Compare it to Bleeding, which specifically says it does ignore it.

Quote

Can you target someone in earth stance with Open hand style and if so why if not why not?

First, you don't target anyone with Open Hand Style. It works along other actions, giving you extra options for spending opportunities.
It's that other action that targets your opponent.

Second, Earth stance does not prevent targeting. It limits how opportunities can be spent.

So, if you have a valid target for an Attack/Scheme action requiring a Martial Arts [Unarmed] check, you gain the options offered by Open Hand Style.

Forcing the target to change stance is neither a critical strike, nor a condition (as defined p170), nor a persistant effect (as defined p108).
Immobilized is a condition. Though as the target has already changed stance, they should no more be immune to it.

Edited by Exarkfr
Wrong conclusion, see below.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Exarkfr said:

Second, Earth stance does not prevent targeting. It limits how opportunities can be spent.

 

And this is where Open Hands Style breaks. It causes a Condition (Immobilized) but Earth Stance specifically disallows any Opportunity spending that does that.  It is one thing that OHS has a secondary effect, but it is wrapped up with Immobilized, so it is a no-go. You can't spend the Opportunity because of how Immobilized and Earth Stance interact, so the stance change never takes effect. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me this remains an open question. If an opportunity causes two effects, only one of which is a condition, you could conceive that you could use it on an Earth stance target and only get one effect out of it... Anyway, still on the fence here and this requires official clarification. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It might, or not, but I haven’t seen clear language either way. I would not allow myself to be categoric on this matter.

Also, the fact that the effects seem to happen sequentially (first the stance change, then the condition) might be an indication of the designers’ intent. 

Edit: clarification on the sequential thing. If you use this tech to make someone change TO the Earth stance from another one, they would not be affected by the immobilized condition 

Edited by Franwax

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Earth Stance busts the Opportunity spending, not the Condition. It happens like this:

Spend Opportunity -> receive effects

Earth Stance kills the first step, so the second never takes place, no matter what it is (though it retroactively justifies the killing if the effect is on the ban list). Similarly, changing someone into Earth Stance will not prevent the Immobilization, because the Opportunity is already spent at that point, and Earth Stance does not give any kind of specific immunity to Conditions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

And this is where Open Hands Style breaks. It causes a Condition (Immobilized) but Earth Stance specifically disallows any Opportunity spending that does that.  It is one thing that OHS has a secondary effect, but it is wrapped up with Immobilized, so it is a no-go. You can't spend the Opportunity because of how Immobilized and Earth Stance interact, so the stance change never takes effect. 

Yeah way to go. Forgetting the arguments by the time I reach the conclusion !
Shouldn't post too early in the morning...

 

Franwax, there is also this element to consider : "Each paragraph represents a distinct effect" (p108 "Effects") and  "Each paragraph in the “effects” section of the action denotes a single, distinct effect" (p155 "Resolve effects")
OHS has only 1 effect, that includes a Condition, so it's a no.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Grodark said:

I also think people have the wrong idea behind wargear  you can not hide some of the wargear items and when you come into a town and are headed to an inn the peasant cast will not go running to the headman every time they see  a tesubo or naganata

No. Because you're clearly samurai and it's not unreasonable for Bushi who've been sent on a mission to be equipped for war, so the fact that you have some armour bundled up on your pony (or weighing down your servant) is going to get looks, but as you say, not cause a crisis.

However, if you walk into the inn's common room wearing plate armour and carrying your wargear weapon, then you're likely to see it empty - or at least have some very concerned looks. 

Look at it this way: 

  • Colorado (for the sake of example) is an 'open carry' state. The law is fully on my side if I want to wander around with a semi-automatic handgun in a holster at my belt, and it's not in any way unheard of to see people taking advantage of this (Consider this the equivalent of a 'non-battlefield-personal weapon' like a Wakizashi).
    • Wargear: Wander up the street with an M-60 and a backpack ammunition feed (unarguably a battlefield weapon) in Interceptor Body Armour and see how far you get before someone either wants to ask you some very pointed questions or is seen going the other way very quickly. You may be entitled to possess such items - for all they know you're part of the national guard on a specific, sanctioned assignment - but people are still going to want to know what the heck you're up to.
    • Ceremonial Equally, certain places - even in a broadly permissive area - might be restrictive to people who don't have a specific sanction to carry that item. This is analogous to 'Ceremonial' as a trait (an item which is tied to a specific status, rank or role) - a police-issue handgun held by a serving police officer might be fine inside a courthouse in session, but you might well find that any others need to be surrendered at the door.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

However, if you walk into the inn's common room wearing plate armour

1

You can do it with lacquered armor tho because it has Ceremonial. And Wargear. 

It is also worth mentioning that places, where you can't have your serious gear, are also places where the chance of "exploding" violence is minimal. Most of the time, the character will enter the combat fully armed and armored, the exceptions are rare and far between. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

You can do it with lacquered armor tho because it has Ceremonial. And Wargear. 

It is also worth mentioning that places, where you can't have your serious gear, are also places where the chance of "exploding" violence is minimal. Most of the time, the character will enter the combat fully armed and armored, the exceptions are rare and far between. 

Ceremonial means you can wear it in many contexts other armour is not permissible. I wouldn’t say that means wearing it on the road (in peace time, ad when not on duty protecting your lord or something) or in an inn isn’t going to have people wonder and possibly cause trouble.

Your second point is very pertinent though. There’s really no reason to look for wriggle room in the social rules of the setting to try and be in armour and armed to the gills at all times. If you find yourself attacked by enemies in much better gear than you are carrying at the time, it’s just about always because the GM contrived the situation. And that’s something you can not control.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you're over-reading Ceremonial.

Quote

Ceremonial gear is indicative of the wearer’s rank. It is allowed in many contexts in which a similar item might not

Many is not All.  However, the rest of the Ceremonial text applies to lacquered armor, such as identification (or identity theft), honor loss, etc.

However, it's also Wargear, which says

Quote

items with the Wargear quality—are decidedly inappropriate for most social contexts.

"Allowed in many" and "Inappropriate in most" don't allow for a lot of overlap, let alone casual overlap. I mean, Rokugan Your Way, but given the established lore and the language of the rules, don't be trying to pass the idea that "Lacquered armor in the inn is A-Okay!" is RAW or even RAI.  That's needlessly confusing new players trying to learn the system and the lore.  I know you're a fan of "Opportunities allow me to imagine a sheer cliff  to knock minions off of!" but if you're going to point out places where the rules are unclear and allow that kind of unconventional interpretation, add that qualifier. Basically, don't pass off Bugs as Features.

 

Most of the time, the character will enter the combat fully armed and armored, the exceptions are rare and far between. 

This is definitely Rokugan Your Way, lol.  If you read many of the classic published modules, or the majority of Heroes of Rokugan and other fan-made modules, the places where characters are geared up for war are actually what is few and far between unless you're playing a Fealty campaign within the Home Clan's borders and you have an intrinsic right and reason to ride around armored. You can literally go through some entire AEG-published adventures without ever having a good cause to don armor.

Now, if your group does a lot of classic fantasy RPG stuff like hunt bandits and fight goblins and explore the Shadowlands, then I'm sure Armed And Ready will be your experience.  But L5R has a lot of ways to play, and not all of them involve tetsubos and full armor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually wanted to point out that the Ceremonial/Wargear qualities are highly inconsistent and thus the whole "should I/shouldn't I" thing with equipment is all up to grabs. 

Also, if I remember correctly, Heroes of the Rokugan had a whole siderule for allowing players a free "lock&load" scene before any major skirmish. I'm fairly sure that the other adventures had something along that line too, because balance would have been out of the window otherwise with one major and symbolic bushi school completely relying on big armor and bigger weapons with several others also working along the line of "heavy gear best gear". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

I actually wanted to point out that the Ceremonial/Wargear qualities are highly inconsistent and thus the whole "should I/shouldn't I" thing with equipment is all up to grabs. 

Also, if I remember correctly, Heroes of the Rokugan had a whole siderule for allowing players a free "lock&load" scene before any major skirmish. I'm fairly sure that the other adventures had something along that line too, because balance would have been out of the window otherwise with one major and symbolic bushi school completely relying on big armor and bigger weapons with several others also working along the line of "heavy gear best gear". 

There are bushi schools, courtier schools and shugenja schools. There are duelist schools and ninja schools. We have artisans and investigators too. Monks of several varieties. Not every adventure is going to give every type of character similar opportunity to shine. It’s one of the things I take out time for with my players: making sure they know enough about the upcoming campaign to create suitable characters and making sure the campaign includes sufficient points of interest for each of the characterd.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK you all seem to miss the question so lets try it again it's not about wearing armor  your armor is in your bag or on your pony or your attendant is carrying it  it's about your wargear weapons (your attendant can only carry so much).

how do you get your wargear weapons to the inn without causing a panic ? 

I say it dose not cause a panic or  anything. They have had to go through a checkpoint before they get into the city   and your a Noble  who was allowed in so the lower cast should not question  your right to be there. as for places where your not allowed your weapon they have people to sharpen your weapons or clean them and racks to put them on (think of it like a coat check for weapons).

I would not expect the phoenix Yojimbo to not have is naganata on him at all times  up until he is in a location where having it would cross a  strict  social norm(like entering the house of a friend or superior or court)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Grodark said:

OK you all seem to miss the question so lets try it again it's not about wearing armor  your armor is in your bag or on your pony or your attendant is carrying it  it's about your wargear weapons (your attendant can only carry so much).

how do you get your wargear weapons to the inn without causing a panic ? 

I say it dose not cause a panic or  anything. They have had to go through a checkpoint before they get into the city   and your a Noble  who was allowed in so the lower cast should not question  your right to be there. as for places where your not allowed your weapon they have people to sharpen your weapons or clean them and racks to put them on (think of it like a coat check for weapons).

I would not expect the phoenix Yojimbo to not have is naganata on him at all times  up until he is in a location where having it would cross a  strict  social norm(like entering the house of a friend or superior or court)

Traditionally, most weapons had travel bags. Your armor has a travel bag.

The traditional "travel kit" of a Samurai, best I can figure, was...

  • Armor,bag, The bag's only about 2x2.5x3... and can be worn as a backpack.
    • Armor - there's a very specific  way to put it in the bag to minimize its volume. 
    • field-kimono (juban, shitagi, kobokama, tabi, obi, and possibly Haori and/or kataginu) folded and inside it. Pretty much like a kendoka's kit now.
    • Back banner. disassembles, and stores with the armor.
    • on top of everything else, the kabuto, possibly in its own bag.
  • yari or naganata, bagged. Strapped to horse.
  • Yumi (Bagged or carried unstrung), Ōyumi (again, bagged or unstrung)  or Daikyu (in saddle case - it's a horseman's bow)
  • Katana, bagged and secured to armor bag, or bagged and worn, or unbagged and worn.
  • Second largeish bag, usually a 3' long slingbag, maybe 1' diameter.
    • A small tent.  2 panels, 3' x 6', 2 poles. Probably with triangular end-flaps
    • A small cookpot (about 1 l)
    • chopsticks, in box. Possibly bagged to protect box.
    • whetstone set, in box. Depending upon style of box, and individual's propensities, may be bagged to protect the box.
    • camp stool, folding (3 legs and a triangular seat) about 3' long...
    • thin tatami (3' x 6') for inside tent. Rolls up to 3'x 0.2'.
    • 0-2 court-kimono (Juban, Nagajuban, Kimono, hakama, tabi, obi, possibly also haori, kataginu, and hanten. Each might be wrapped in a kerchief.
    • 0-1 house-wear (yukata, possibly with a matching juban and tabi.)
    • Hanten (overcoat)
    • Possibly a spare set of geta
    • Possibly a pair of waraji.
    • inking stones and ink, boxed, inside a bag (to protect the box
    • Brushes - either in a bamboo tube or in a wood box, which is bagged.
    • Maybe a spare fundoshi.
    • Makeup kit
    • furoshiki (head-bags)
  • Wakizashi in obi of kimono worn.
  • Tantō or Aiguchi (knife) in obi.
  • Coin-bag, in obi
  • Possibly a scroll satchel.

For the weapons - if the polearm heads are bagged, it's "just a staff" - at least socially. If it's bagged, the innkeeper probably (if he isn't itching to die) will politely ignore it's actual presence. 

For the Armor, as long as it's bagged, non-issue. if the samurai wants to wear the helmet, so long as the mempo (mask) isn't worn, I'd say "Not worth a second point of armor, nor the wargear tag", except inside court. More properly, tho', the kabuto is, as I understand it, not quite "daily wear" but definitely "duty wear" - if you're pulling guard duty, even if no other armor is worn, it's as much a sign of Bushi status as the blade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, AK_Aramis said:

For the weapons - if the polearm heads are bagged, it's "just a staff" - at least socially. If it's bagged, the innkeeper probably (if he isn't itching to die) will politely ignore it's actual presence. 

Or he'll just be a bit on edge. 

Remember that in addition to very-much-at-the-GM's-discretion flat prohibitions, there's also the 'people get irritable quickly around wargear' effect. Provided everyone's being polite and no-one's trying to do anything significant, no-one is doing anything requiring a check and the Wargear quality shouldn't matter provided the item is 'stowed' (blade bagged and being held in a non-threatening manner and/or carefully lent on a beam next to your table if you don't have a room to stow it in/servant to leave it with/don't want to give it up*). 

But if the atmosphere is not simple and friendly because you've either got an argument or heated debate going on with other patrons or the innkeeper (i.e. an intrigue scene) then that's when even a bagged up naginata is going to keep drawing the occasional nervous glance. 

1 hour ago, AK_Aramis said:

For the Armor, as long as it's bagged, non-issue. if the samurai wants to wear the helmet, so long as the mempo (mask) isn't worn, I'd say "Not worth a second point of armor, nor the wargear tag", except inside court. More properly, tho', the kabuto is, as I understand it, not quite "daily wear" but definitely "duty wear" - if you're pulling guard duty, even if no other armor is worn, it's as much a sign of Bushi status as the blade

I'm no expert on oriental armour, but certainly with western plate it takes so dratted long to armour up that in 'down time' breaks,  especially short ones, I can see just removing enough of the stuff to get the weight off your spine and thighs and let you shrug your shoulders (and scratch between your ******** shoulder blades!) without stripping the whole thing off. 'Partly armoured up' clearly shouldn't qualify for full protection, but also immediatly says "yes, soldier/guard/whatever, but also off-duty". 

Besides which, when you're on guard or sentry duty, your primary responsibility is "spotting stuff that shouldn't be there"; there is a real argument in favour of not wearing a helmet & mask and actually having some peripheral vision....

 

* I concur that a Yojimbo who's serious about his duties is potentially going to be stubborn about hanging on to his naginata unless specifically told to leave it behind by his boss or a social superior (court/house of a friend/etc). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An armed and armored yojimbo accompanying an unarmed and unarmored protectee will also cause relatively little concern: if the person he is guarding is visibly not geared up for violence, the assumption is that the yojimbo isn’t going to instigate trouble. There’s a big difference in perception between a noble travelling with a number of guards and an entirely armed group of bushi. The person in charge of the group is the social front, it’s his or her appearance that will reflect on the rest to a large extent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing to also keep in mind is that as long as you are in your own clan lands it really isn't an issue beyond being rude. There is no reason to make it an issue unless you are unescorted in someone else's lands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...