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shinjox

Multiple Kata

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Can multiple Kata's be used in the same action?

I figure that most that have activation based on making an Attack, that they cannot, because there are some very specific things that those require: Martial Art [Melee] or Fitness (Void) or what not. But there are others, such as the Striking as [Element] kata that their activation is "spend opportunity and get X" They do not require a roll in and of themselves, but are more like "hey, you have this kata so these are other uses for opps you can do"

For instance, could a bushi use Iaijutsu: Rising Cut, could he also use Striking as Fire as well?  And if you had the opps left, could you use Striking as Water as well?

I guess one could argue that, with the Strikign as [Element] Kata, and other kata that are 'based' on one of the elements, you would have to be in the stance that coresponds, but thematically, mixing and matching what one learns in a marital art, is how you make that art your own.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, shinjox said:

For instance, could a bushi use Iaijutsu: Rising Cut, could he also use Striking as Fire as well?  And if you had the opps left, could you use Striking as Water as well?

You can use any number of kata which aren't mutually exclusive in their activation conditions..

  • If a kata's 'activation' is an action (like Iaijutsu: Rising Cut) then obviously you can only use one at once, because you're only doing one action at a time.
    • You could not, for example, use Iaijustu: Rising Cut and Iaijutsu: Horisontal Blade simultaneously because both are actions.
  • In addition to on 'action', you can use any number of 'opportunity' kata whose prerequisites you meet if you have enough * to fuel them all. 
    • You can therefore use Iaijutu: Rising Cut and Striking As Fire simultaneously if you have sufficient success and opportunity
    • You will never be able to use Striking as Fire and Striking as Water simultaneously because the former requires When you make a Martial Arts [Melee, Ranged, or Unarmed] (Fire) check whilst the latter requires When you make a Martial Arts [Melee, Ranged, or Unarmed] (Water) check, and you can't be doing both simultaneously. 
      • Note that
        • the "spend opportunity under a different ring at double cost" ONLY applies to the generic opportunities on page 18
        • Fire and Water are an 'opposed pair' who can't do that anyway; 2 fire can be spent as 1 earth or air, but not water.
    • You could, however, use  Iaijutu: Rising Cut, Striking As Fire and Disappearing World style simultaneously, because none of their prerequisites are mutually exclusive - Disappearing World and Striking As Fire both require Martial Arts [Melee, Ranged, or Unarmed] (Fire) . 
Edited by Magnus Grendel

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3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

You can use any number of kata which aren't mutually exclusive in their activation conditions..

  • Note that
    • the "spend opportunity under a different ring at double cost" ONLY applies to the generic opportunities on page 18
    • Fire and Water are an 'opposed pair' who can't do that anyway; 2 fire can be spent as 1 earth or air, but not water.

Go reread the table, Magnus. Page 18. Actually, I may as well quote it.

  • "Air <op>*: Choose a Water or Fire opportunity from this or another table and resolve it. The cost of this Opportunity is double its normal cost."
  • "Earth <op>*: Choose a Water or Fire opportunity from this or another table and resolve it. The cost of this Opportunity is double its normal cost."
  • "Fire <op>*: Choose an Air or Earth opportunity from this or another table and resolve it. The cost of this Opportunity is double its normal cost."
  • "Water <op>*: Choose an Air or Earth opportunity from this or another table and resolve it. The cost of this opportunity is double its normal cost."
  • "Void <op>*: Choose an Air, Earth, Fire, or Water opportunity from this or another table and resolve it. The cost of this opportunity is double its normal cost."

Italics original; emphasis applied for clarity. <op> substituted for the symbol.

Note that neither update affects these choices.  

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Personally I would say that you could not spend opportunities form other elements on katas like striking as fire cause the stipulation on when you can use it is specific  martial arts[melee, ranged, unarmed] (fire) is the requirement so you could not say   do a martial art(air) to strike as fire cause it's not a table  it;s a specific result of a kata as such not a table where as  the smithing table is a table and there for could be used to exchange results  so if ya got 3 opportunities on fire you could make it resplendent then you could sue the other 2 to give it a +1 to damage or deadlyness  or maybe make 3 resplendent blades.

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what do you all think of making things concealable while crafting them like say a Chokuto in a walking stick  or a Zanbato in a in a fancy staff

your not changing the functionality of the weapon just making it concealable would probably still e cumbersome but it would lose wargear and become concealable.

you not altering it into a different item your just disguising it as your making it.

with this in mind I think they need to change tables like that  to be specific but more general examples of stuff that can happen like the table should maybe read "water<OP> "may add and or remove wargear, Concealable quality form an item" then give an example like "when modifying a sheath for your Sword to conceal it's true nature while crafting a it"

 

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11 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Ah. Fair enough, my mistake. 

The specific of spending Water as Fire is still a no-go, though (unless spending 4>2>1, I guess?)

 

It says ANY, so, unless they change the wording, pick the x2 for the adjacent ring, and then its adjacent, and voila - any can be bought at x4.

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The 4>2>1 part seems valid to me, but there's still some issues with Striking as Water from Fire stance.

First, it's not clear whether the entries at the bottom of the kata are considered a table or not.

Second, if we do consider it a table, it's almost certainly the intent that the requirements of the kata apply. Without this, you could also use opportunities from kata you do not know, and that have higher school ranks. In the case of Striking as Water, the Activation clause is not satisfied, since there was no Martial Arts (Water) check.

Edited by ubik2

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On 11/13/2017 at 3:22 PM, Grodark said:

what do you all think of making things concealable while crafting them like say a Chokuto in a walking stick  or a Zanbato in a in a fancy staff

your not changing the functionality of the weapon just making it concealable would probably still e cumbersome but it would lose wargear and become concealable.

you not altering it into a different item your just disguising it as your making it.

with this in mind I think they need to change tables like that  to be specific but more general examples of stuff that can happen like the table should maybe read "water<OP> "may add and or remove wargear, Concealable quality form an item" then give an example like "when modifying a sheath for your Sword to conceal it's true nature while crafting a it”

Concealable (as a game term) means you can carry something on your person without it being noticeable. A disguised katana is still noticeable, it just doesn’t look like a weapon. You can stuff one into a bundle of firewood too to accomplish the same effect, that still doesn’t make it concealable.

I’d certainly allow you to craft a weapon like this, but I wouldn’t give it the concealable quality. If wargear, I’d keep it wargear too - but as long as it is disguised, it doesn’t count as being worn so doesn’t instill extra strife. Disguising a weapon doesn’t change what it is, only what it looks like.

As an aside, I’d give an honor loss to anyone crafting such an item for themselves, or having someone else do it for them, as well as another every time it would be worn deliberately into a situation where wearing such a weapon is not permitted. How much of one would depend on the character’s current honor rank, of course.

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39 minutes ago, ubik2 said:

The 4>2>1 part seems valid to me, but there's still some issues with Striking as Water from Fire stance.

First, it's not clear whether the entries at the bottom of the kata are considered a table or not.

Second, if we do consider it a table, it's almost certainly the intent that the requirements of the kata apply. Without this, you could also use opportunities from kata you do not know, and that have higher school ranks. In the case of Striking as Water, the Activation clause is not satisfied, since there was no Martial Arts (Water) check.

4>2>1 would only apply to actual tables (those that are numbered in the book).

I would not let opportunities spent via Techniques be able to cross from one Ring to another.

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10 hours ago, ubik2 said:

The 4>2>1 part seems valid to me, but there's still some issues with Striking as Water from Fire stance.

First, it's not clear whether the entries at the bottom of the kata are considered a table or not.

Second, if we do consider it a table, it's almost certainly the intent that the requirements of the kata apply. Without this, you could also use opportunities from kata you do not know, and that have higher school ranks. In the case of Striking as Water, the Activation clause is not satisfied, since there was no Martial Arts (Water) check.

Each could be considered a separate table, as several have multiple entries.
I'd consider them each as valid for cross, but only if the other technique is possessed.

Edited by AK_Aramis

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Or to be more precise, Techniques say that these "New Opportunities" and so these wold ';add' 'to the table to the skill or ring in which they come from, allowing, again, the expenditure of opportunities from one ring to another at double the cost.

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49 minutes ago, shinjox said:

Or to be more precise, Techniques say that these "New Opportunities" and so these wold ';add' 'to the table to the skill or ring in which they come from, allowing, again, the expenditure of opportunities from one ring to another at double the cost.

« New opportunities » that appear in techniques are defined on page 108. Nowhere is it mentioned that they count as being added to a table. 

Tables, otoh, are clearly referenced and numbered (table 1-2 for generic opportunities, table 3-19 for martial skills opportunities, etc. )

Also, for the Striking as ... katas the point is moot since the activation itself requires the use of a certain Ring. 

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