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"Harpooned !" and TLT

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33 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

Can someone explain why the FAQ isn’t saying that it’s still initiative dependent?

Because FFG said so. that about as clear explanation as you will get.

This is not the first, nor will it be the last RAI overruling RAW determination from FFG.

Every time this happens it further erodes the confidence of the player base that the rules are what they say they are, constantly requiring further FAQ's and clarifications, and so the cycle goes on & on & on, with more and more things being questioned based on several conflicting precedents set before.

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1 hour ago, Mace Windu said:

Because FFG said so. that about as clear explanation as you will get.

This is not the first, nor will it be the last RAI overruling RAW determination from FFG.

Every time this happens it further erodes the confidence of the player base that the rules are what they say they are, constantly requiring further FAQ's and clarifications, and so the cycle goes on & on & on, with more and more things being questioned based on several conflicting precedents set before.

Well I ask because that’s how I’ve seen people been ruling it. That initiative doesn’t matter anymore since the FAQ, but in @Crimsonwarlock‘s and I’s game he was saying that the FAQ entry confirms that it’s suppose to be initiative. 

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9 hours ago, Mace Windu said:

Because FFG said so. that about as clear explanation as you will get.

This is not the first, nor will it be the last RAI overruling RAW determination from FFG.

Every time this happens it further erodes the confidence of the player base that the rules are what they say they are, constantly requiring further FAQ's and clarifications, and so the cycle goes on & on & on, with more and more things being questioned based on several conflicting precedents set before.

What is the source on this?

 

My argument for Init controlling the Harpooned vs TLT is this:

 

Premise 1: Simultaneous effects are triggered sequentially based on player initiative.  (General rules on simultaneous effects)

 

Premise 2: The Harpooned effect and TLT effect trigger at the same time. (Both effects are timed to between steps 6 and 7 of the timing chart)

 

Conclusion: Initiative will determine which effect is checked first.  Therefore, if the player with Harpooned has initiative, Boom!  If the player with TLT has initiative, no Boom! (Unless the ship was destroyed by the attack).

 

What about the FAQ:. The FAQ entry regarding the this entry clarifies the timing on Harpooned (between 6 &7).  It also clarifies that Harpooned will trigger even if a effect will later cancel the crit.  Since the FAQ does nothing to invalidate my either of the above premises, I would argue that my conclusion stands.

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I understand where @Tbetts94 is coming from. What seems to be the vast majority of TOs and players have read the FAQ entry as Harpooned! will always trigger if there is an uncancelled hit result in the "Compare Dice Results" step regardless of any post-step dice cancellations. However the FAQ entry does not actually say this. So, to that end, let's take a look at the actual word-for-word FAQ entry:

Quote

Harpooned!

When an attack hits a ship (after "Compare Results," before "Deal Damage") with the Harpooned! condition and has 1 or more uncanceled [kaboom] results, the condition resolves at that time (see "Timing Chart for Performing an Attack" on page 8). Note that this occurs even if those [kaboom] results are subsequently canceled, as in the case of Twin Laser Turret, Ion Cannon, Jamming Beam, etc, but not if the [kaboom] results are altered or removed at an earlier step, such as by Heavy Laser Cannon's effect.

Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures FAQ v4.4.1 Effective 01.22.2018 | page 9

The first sentence clearly states that the condition card in question is checked after the "Compare Results" step and before the "Deal Damage" step. I don't think this point really needed clarification, we have other examples of cards that use this timing window and should've been able to sort out when this condition card triggers (Draw Their Fire and Selflessness, for example). So, we've solved when this card triggers, but what about how this card triggers?

The FAQ entry goes on to say that if there is 1 or more uncancelled critical hit (i.e. [kaboom]) result the conditions resolves at that time. So, before we get into the "Deal Damage" step and after we've finished cancelling dice in the "Compare Results" step we must pause and check for any uncancelled critical hit results. Seems straight forward enough, but then weapons like TLT, Ion Cannon, Jamming Beam, etc. come in and muddy the waters because they also have triggers that resolve at the same timing window. So how do we handle this?

Fortunately for us the rules are very clear on how to resolve multiple abilities across multiple players that resolve simultaneously: the player with initiative resolves all of his/her abilities first and then the player without initiative resolves all of his/her abilities second. The FAQ entry does not state that the Harpooned! condition takes precedent here. What it actually says is that "even if those [kaboom] results are subsequently canceled" Harpooned! still resolves. The word subsequently is an adverb that means "after a particular thing has happened; afterward." So, if the player with initiative is attacking with a TLT s/he resolves his/her ability first and cancels all dice results. All dice results are canceled before (not after) you check the Harpooned! condition card trigger. Therefore, because the cancellation of the offending critical hit result did not occur AFTER checking the Harpooned! condition card this line of text has no meaning here.

The FAQ clarification is very specific in its wording, it ONLY DICTATES that Harpooned! resolves even if an uncancelled critical hit result IS SUBSEQUENTLY CANCELLED. It DOES NOT SAY that Harpooned! resolves even if an uncancelled critical hit result was PREVIOUSLY cancelled within this timing window.

In order for the majority of TOs and players to be correct in that Harpooned! resolves regardless of any post-"Compare Dice Results" step dice cancellations the FAQ entry would need to contain the red text below (and should contain the blue text for added clarification though, it may not be entirely necessary):

Quote

Harpooned!

When an attack hits a ship (after "Compare Results," before "Deal Damage") with the Harpooned! condition and has 1 or more uncanceled [kaboom] results, the condition resolves at that time (see "Timing Chart for Performing an Attack" on page 8). Note that this occurs even if those [kaboom] results are PREVIOUSLY OR subsequently canceled AT THIS STEP, as in the case of Twin Laser Turret, Ion Cannon, Jamming Beam, etc, but not if the [kaboom] results are altered or removed at an earlier step, such as by Heavy Laser Cannon's effect.

 

To that end I am flying Dual Scurrg H-6 Bombers with TLTs and Harpoon Missiles tomorrow at Regionals in Norton, MA. As I am part of the New England Consortium of TOs I know the event will be ruled under the majority consensus that Harpooned! always resolves; period, end of story. However, unless Paul Heaver calls the TO, I see no reason to insist my Harpooned! conditions trigger after my own TLT attacks IF I HAVE INITIATIVE. I will, of course, follow the rulings of the TO should he feel it necessary to make a ruling at the event and I will respect that ruling as I respect him. All I am saying is that I would not argue against my opponent if they said, because I have initiative, the Harpooned! condition does not trigger against my TLTs...as I believe they are correct.

--

Please do me the respect of fully reading everything above before you tell me I'm 100% wrong because you don't like what I said...thanks :)

Edited by ZealuxMyr
The Internet Is Mean

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Ok I read the wall-o-text. Initiative never comes into play.  Step 6 determines if a ship is hit or not, but isn't where the dice are canceled. The last bit of step 6 is what triggers Harpooned conditions, not the dealing damage step. Dealing damage is step 7, where remaining results from TLT are cancelled, and 1 damage is assigned.

Evidence is in the TLT wording:
Each time this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage. Then cancel all dice results.

 

In short, Harpooned triggers in 6 where we determined it hit, and there was an uncanceled crit that resulted in the "hit" result. THEN we move to step 7, where TLT DEALS ONE DAMAGE, and THEN clears all remaining dice results. TLT cancels its own results after dealing damage, well after Harpooned looks for an uncanceled crit.

 

I don't know or care who I'm arguing in favor of or against. But this is how it works. Anyone arguing against it really needs to explain why they're moving on to step 7 (dealing damage from the attack, cancelling TLT dice, results) before resolving all of the effects from step 6 (canceling dice results by comparing hit/crit vs evades to determine if a ship was hit, and anything effects that results in being "hit")

EDIT- I read up a little more, and it seems I'm arguing against @Crimsonwarlock. Harpooned resolves between 6 and 7, but TLT doesn't resolve damage until 7 (which is after 6.5 or whatever you want to call pre-7). TLT damage happens in step 7, and per the TLT card, TLT damage is dealt BEFORE the dice are cancelled.

 

Edited by JasonCole
CLARIFICATION

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12 minutes ago, JasonCole said:

 

EDIT- I read up a little more, and it seems I'm arguing against @Crimsonwarlock. Harpooned resolves between 6 and 7, but TLT doesn't resolve damage until 7 (which is after 6.5 or whatever you want to call pre-7). TLT damage happens in step 7, and per the TLT card, TLT damage is dealt BEFORE the dice are cancelled.

 

Why do you argue that TLT occurs at step 7?  

TLT's's trigger is each time this attack hits (which is after 6/ before 7).  The trigger is NOT when this attack deals damage.

 

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Because TLT deals damage during step 7, which is the DEAL DAMAGE STEP... THAT'S WHEN THE ATTACK DEALS DAMAGE, which is the single damage from the TLT.

 

That's. When. Attacks. Deal. Damage.

Harpooned! isn't an attack, it's an existing effect that is dealt with outside of the series of attack steps (thus the "between 6 and 7" step) as a result of being hit in step 6, before damage from "THE ATTACK" is determined in step 7.

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@JasonCole thank you for reading my wall-o-text.

Scenario: Sol Sixxa attacks Lothal Rebel with his Twin Laser Turret and the Lothal Rebel has the Harpooned! condition card. Sol Sixxa rolls 3 natural critical hit results. Lothal Rebel rolls zero dice and has no results.

Step 6:

I. Resolve abilities that occur "at the star of the 'Compare Results' step" - we have none so we move on.

II. Cancel pairs of hits and evade results - we have no evade results so cancel no hit results.

III. Cancel pairs of critical hit and evade results - we have no evade results so cancel no critical hit results.

IV. Determine whether the defender is hit by the attack or the attack misses - the attack hits as there are three uncancelled critical hit results still in the dice pool.

AFTER STEP 6, BEFORE STEP 7: resolve abilities for "Did the attack hit?" - Here we have both the "Each time this attack hits" and "When you are hit by an attack" triggers to resolve from Twin Laser Turret and Harpooned!, respectively.

Each player has a simultaneous effect to resolve. Using the FAQ clarification from the Q&A section (below) initiative is very important:

Quote

Q: If both players have effects that resolve at the same time (or from the same trigger), which player resolves their abilities first?

A: The player with initiative resolves all abilities he would like to resolve, then the other player resolves all abilities he would like to resolve.

If, in the above scenario, Sol Sixxa has initiative he deals 1 damage to the Lothal Rebel from the TLT effect and then cancels all dice results before Lothal Rebel checks for uncancelled critical hit results. As the critical hit results are cancelled previously to checking the dice pool Harpooned! does not resolve. Now, we enter step seven BECAUSE TLT cancelled all dice results AND the attack hit, Lothal Rebel suffers one damage in the appropriate step.

If, in the above scenario, Lothal Rebel has initiative he checks for uncancelled cirtical hit results and discovers there are 3. Harpooned! resolves, dealing him 1 facedown damage card (WHICH IS NOT PART OF THE DEAL DAMAGE STEP) and causing each ship at Range 1 to suffer 1 damage. Then he discards the condition card. Now Sol Sixxa's TLT ability resolves: dealing 1 damage to Lothal Rebel and then cancels all dice results. Harpooned! has thus triggered and resolved EVEN IF THE CRITICAL HIT RESULTS WERE SUBSIQUENTLY CANCELLED. Now, we enter step seven BECAUSE TLT cancelled all dice results AND the attack hit, Lothal Rebel suffers one damage in the appropriate step.

If Harpooned! was meant to always resolve and preclude the resolution of other abilities (like cancelling all dice results) in the same timing window the first sentence would read as follows: "When an attack hits a ship (after "Compare Results," before "Deal Damage")with the Harpooned! condition and has 1 or more uncanceled [kaboom] results, before any other abilities may be resolved, the condition resolves at that time (see "Timing Chart for Performing an Attack" on page 8)."

Damage dealt from the TLT is part of the cards effect. It is not part of suffering damage from an attack. Suffering damage from an attack is, in Step 7, defined as receiving cards in relation to matching dice results currently in the dice pool.

Edited by ZealuxMyr
TLT damage is an effect NOT part of dealing damage from an attack...

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The whole point of the TLT card text is that you deal 1 damage to the defender and cancel all dice results before they get into step 7. The damage dealt from TLT, as with damage dealt by the Enforcer Title, Harpooned! condition card, Ion Cannon, etc., is damage dealt as a card ability and therefore is not a part of Step 7.

Step 7 only deals damage based on matching dice results in the attack dice pool:

Quote

7. “Deal Damage” step

i. Remove shield tokens to cancel [boom] results

ii. Remove shield tokens to cancel [kaboom] results

iii. The defender is dealt facedown damage cards for remaining [boom] results

iv. The defender is dealt faceup damage cards for remaining [kaboom] results

 

Edited by ZealuxMyr

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@ZealuxMyr-  no, read my clarification. Sol's attack with the TLT doesn't cancel its dice until after the single damage is dealt (please go read the TLT card) in attack phase 7. TLT's dice cancelling effect does not occur in the same phase that being "hit" or "missed" is determined, it occurrs in the "deal damage" step, where alternate damage is being dealt.

Further precedent is set with Bossk, and his conversion of a crit into two hits, not in the compare results phase (6), but in the deal damage phase (7). Bossk, for example, firing a mangler cannon with 3 hits rolled against a zero agility ship w/ harpooned condition would go like this:
3 hits, mangler cannon converts one hit to a crit for 2 hits 1 crit
2 hits and 1 crit vs 0 evades = target HIT (end of step 6)
HARPOONED! triggers, badstuff happens
beginning of step 7: Bossk converts the crit into 2 hits for hit hit hit hit. Remove 1 shield for each hit result, or when out of shields, assign 1 damage card for each remaining hit result.

Your assumption that they happen simultaneously is incorrect. If it was phrased that you "cancel all dice results and THEN deal 1 damage", then there would be an argument, but it isn't. It's exactly the opposite.

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Just now, ZealuxMyr said:

The whole point of the TLT card text is that you deal 1 damage to the defender and cancel all dice results before they get into step 7. The damage dealt from TLT, as with damage dealt by the Enforcer Title, Harpooned! condition card, Ion Cannon, etc., is damage dealt as a card ability and therefore is not a part of Step 7.

Step 7 only deals damage based on matching dice results in the attack dice pool:

 

No, it isn't. At this point, it isn't some intellectual discussion, you're simply wrong. Again, please reference the timing chart, it is quite clearly stated.


Step 7 doesn't deal with matching dice results at all, it deals with remaining dice results. STEP 6 cancels hits and crits with equivalent evades. The only thing left at the end of step 6 is hit/crit results, if any, and those are the ONLY RESULTS THAT MOVE INTO STEP 7.

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2 minutes ago, ZealuxMyr said:

TLT does not assign damage in step 7 - it assigns card effect damage, not attack resolution damage.

Where are you getting this? TLT is an attack. Attacks assign attack damage in the assign damage step.

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This is step 7 copied and pasted directly from page 8 of the FAQ, this step includes no substep where you assign damage from anything other than uncancelled dice results:

Quote

7. “Deal Damage” step

i. Remove shield tokens to cancel [boom] results

ii. Remove shield tokens to cancel [kaboom] results

iii. The defender is dealt facedown damage cards for remaining [boom] results

iv. The defender is dealt faceup damage cards for remaining [kaboom] results

When a Twin Laser Turret attack reaches step 7 there are zero dice results remaining. When the attack hits, each time that attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage and then all dice results are cancelled. The attack is determined to hit at step 6 iv. The FAQ page 8 flowchart has a specific unnumbered substep in which you answer the question: "Did the attack hit?" with either "Yes" or "No." It is when you answer this question that you resolve the full text of both TLT and Harpooned! simultaneously and thus why initiative matters.

Just because TLT causes the defender to "suffer 1 damage" does not mean that damage is suffered in Step 7. In fact that damage cannot be suffered in Step 7 as the only sufferable damage is clearly all defined as [boom] or [kaboom] dice results.

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I see the point you're getting at. You're calling the TLT damage an effect, when in fact it is not a separate effect, it is the damage result of an attack, albeit an alternate damage than simple "X hits and crits = X damage". This is where we disagree. Tractor beams have "alternate effects" as they aren't damage. Thread Tracers have an alternate effect as they aren't damage. TLT effect is damage, ergo, happens in step 7. Threads and Tractors don't happen in 7 as there is no damage to assess.

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2 minutes ago, JasonCole said:

I see the point you're getting at. You're calling the TLT damage an effect, when in fact it is not a separate effect, it is the damage result of an attack, albeit an alternate damage than simple "X hits and crits = X damage". This is where we disagree. Tractor beams have "alternate effects" as they aren't damage. Thread Tracers have an alternate effect as they aren't damage. TLT effect is damage, ergo, happens in step 7. Threads and Tractors don't happen in 7 as there is no damage to assess.

Why would this be the case?  The triggering clause for TLT is "each time the attack hits". 

Why would one wait until a later step finish executing the effects of the card?  The card does not instruct one to resolve it's effect in a later step.

 

 

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You are correct that step 7 does not explicitly say that results from cancelled effects happen here, but it is still damage. You maintain that dice from TLT are cancelled before 7, I maintain that they are cancelled in 7.

You, however, are attempting to argue that they're cancelled in a step that doesn't exist, because they aren't cancelled in step 6, and step 6.5 (imaginary) only exists for the timing of effects that aren't part of the attack (Harpooned, for example) or that don't deal damage (tracers, tractors).

For the record, I think it's gross that uncanceled crits on TLT trigger the condition. It makes TLT that much more abusive than it already was. But it still isn't an issue of initiative.

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1 minute ago, Crimsonwarlock said:

Why would this be the case?  The triggering clause for TLT is "each time the attack hits". 

Why would one wait until a later step finish executing the effects of the card?  The card does not instruct one to resolve it's effect in a later step.

 

 

Because g***amn chart. If it hits, it directs you to 7 where damage is assigned. No part of the attack actually happens in step 6.5 (or 7.5 while we're at it), it's merely a yes/no trigger. Harpooned only happens there because it's not part of the attack, and they needed some place to shove it that didn't wreck their timing chart.

I'm done with this foolishness. Precedent is set, rules are clear. Do whatever the **** you want to. And even if it did come down to being simultaneous (which it isn't), it would be the owner of the effect to determine which order they resolved in, as with mine/net tokens and which ship they detonate on when they touch multiple ships.

 

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I am glad you can see my point and I fully understand why you're saying the damage must be suffered in the "Deal Damage" step. Unfortunately I believe this step to be a misnomer and similar to how the "Check Plot Stress" step is often misunderstood.

Thought TLT is an attack and it assigns damage as a result of being an attack it, strictly speaking, does not assign any damage during Step 7 - it assigns its damage when the card is triggered and resolved. TLT's damage assignment clause, which leads to the cancellation of all dice results, takes place with the resolution of Step 6 iv if the answer to: "Did the attack hit?" is yes. Thus the damage assignment and dice cancellation clause is triggered and resolved outside of Step 7 and within the same timing window as the trigger and (possible) resolution of the Harpooned! condition.

The FAQ clarification only addresses the fact that, if all dice results are to be cancelled subsequently (after) the Harpooned! condition card the ability still resolves. It makes no mention of what happens if the dice results are cancelled previously (before) the Harpooned! condition card, as can happen when resolving cards/abilities that trigger simultaneously across both players.

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You cannot use the title of the step to decide that all damage happen there. If this was the case, then the Harpooned and Assault Missile damage would also happen there. TLT is an alternative damage that have nothing to do with the damage dealt with the Dice...

Also if Tractor Beam is init base with Harpooned, then TLT is also. They have the same wording

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3 minutes ago, ZealuxMyr said:

The FAQ clarification only addresses the fact that, if all dice results are to be cancelled subsequently (after) the Harpooned! condition card the ability still resolves. It makes no mention of what happens if the dice results are cancelled previously (before) the Harpooned! condition card, as can happen when resolving cards/abilities that trigger simultaneously across both players.

It is funny, because people say that you can't spend a Target Lock before adding the result from Advanced Targeting Computer because the FAQ about it supposedly back track...

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It would not, as has been suggested, be correct to say that that one player "controls" both abilities. The Harpooned! condition card is assigned to the defender. At that time it becomes an ability under their control, meaning the attacker with TLT does not have any control over the condition card - only the ship (the "you") with it assigned to them has that control.

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10 minutes ago, JasonCole said:

You are correct that step 7 does not explicitly say that results from cancelled effects happen here, but it is still damage. You maintain that dice from TLT are cancelled before 7, I maintain that they are cancelled in 7.

You, however, are attempting to argue that they're cancelled in a step that doesn't exist, because they aren't cancelled in step 6, and step 6.5 (imaginary) only exists for the timing of effects that aren't part of the attack (Harpooned, for example) or that don't deal damage (tracers, tractors).

For the record, I think it's gross that uncanceled crits on TLT trigger the condition. It makes TLT that much more abusive than it already was. But it still isn't an issue of initiative.

Why do effects have to happen during a step?  The FAQ clarification (emphasis clarification, not rules change/errata) on HARPOONED! even goes so far as to detail that it's effect happens between steps.

 

If no other effects could trigger between steps, LT Blount's ability could not trigger as step 7 doesn't even occur if the attack misses.

 

Step seven does not have rules saying that all card effects that deal damage must occur here.  

 

My argument: card effects are all resolved in full when the card effect is triggered.  You don't stop executing a cards effect until it is fully resolved unless the cards effect itself fulfills a trigger for another card (see PTL/EI interaction)

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