Jump to content
Cartchan

"Harpooned !" and TLT

Recommended Posts

Let me state a few things before I make my point:

TLT says to cancel all dice results after you are hit and have suffered your 1 damage.

The Harpooned! effect resolves if you are hit and then there are no uncanceled  crits.

 

To me, it seems like the act of getting hit by the TLT necessitates in resolving the effects of the TLT card first. But regardless of how this argument resolves, it's piss poor sportsmanship to tell your opponent that you are going to use the crit that is about to be canceled as the uncanceled crit to set off the Harpooned! effect.  That's just shady gameplay. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, BDrafty said:

To me, it seems like the act of getting hit by the TLT necessitates in resolving the effects of the TLT card first. 

No, not at all, you must be hit first to resolve TLT condition. You are not hit after cancelling, nothing in the card say: "cancel all dice result and consider that the attack hit." it say, if you hit, then you cancel everything, but you still must hit first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's all take a breath here.  :)

I think everyone here will agree that the SPIRIT of the card interaction is that TLT should not set off Harpooned.  I don't see anyone fervently arguing that the Harpooned condition needs to be buffed because it's so hard to trigger!

The issue lies with the fact that so many X-Wing rules interactions are based on the actual language on the cards, not the underlying intent of how they should work.  We're not here to discuss whether or not it should work... that's best handled by discussions with the game developers.  Rather, let's talk about how these two cards actually work; how they operate within the framework of the rules of the game.  In that sense, the card interaction all comes down to one basic question:

  • Which happens first:
    • The cancellation of dice results due to the function of a secondary weapon (in this case, Twin Laser Turret)?
    • "Harpooned" checking for uncancelled crits?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:
  • Which happens first:
    • The cancellation of dice results due to the function of a secondary weapon (in this case, Twin Laser Turret)?
    • "Harpooned" checking for uncancelled crits?

Those 2 things are effects trigerred by the same condition on both card : "when the attack hit"

With TLT (or all other secondary weapons that include to cancel the dices result for a funky effect) : When the attack hit -> do 1 damage, then cancel dices

With the condition : When the attack hit (you're hit by an attack)+ if there's an uncancel crit -> condition.

 

Till it's not FAQed, they both trigger at the same time (6 IV on the attack chart), so initiative will tell which one resolve first.

 

Edited by Grendelator

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Grendelator said:

Those 2 things are effects trigerred by the same condition on both card : "when the attack hit"

With TLT (or all other secondary weapons that include to cancel the dices result for a funky effect) : When the attack hit -> do 1 damage, then cancel dices

With the condition : When the attack hit (you're hit by an attack)+ if there's an uncancel crit -> condition.

 

Till it's not FAQed, they both trigger at the same time (6 IV on the attack chart), so initiative will tell which one resolve first.

 

That's exactly my interpretation, too.  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Grendelator said:

Till it's not FAQed, they both trigger at the same time (6 IV on the attack chart), so initiative will tell which one resolve first.

I think this is 100% correct in RAW, but is morally untenable.  When in a somewhat mirrored match, to me it seems wrong that Player A, who won the dice roll at the start, can pass initiative to Player B, and have their own TLTs trigger the Harpooned! they've placed on the opponent, while the opponent cannot do the same in reverse.  Not incorrect in terms of rules, but a level of unfairness beyond what seems reasonable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

ATTACK: Perform this attack twice (even against a ship outside your firing arc).

Each time this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage. Then cancel all dice results.

 
Quote

When you are hit by an attack if there is at least 1 uncanceled critical result, each other ship at Range 1 suffers 1 damage. Then discard this card and receive 1 facedown Damage card.

When you are destroyed, each ship at Range 1 suffers 1 damage.

Action: Discard this card. Then roll 1 attack die. On a hit or critical result, suffer 1 damage.

 

TLT hits, the defender suffers 1 damage, then the dice are canceled. The dice are canceled after the hit is determined.

Harpooned triggers when you are hit.

Basically harpooned jumps in the middle of the tlt sequence because as soon as you are hit "when you are hit" it triggers and does its thing. 

The dice cancel and the Harpooned trigger do not happen at the same time. Harpooned happens when you are hit, the dice are canceled after that is determined.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Icelom said:

TLT hits, the defender suffers 1 damage, then the dice are canceled. The dice are canceled after the hit is determined.

Harpooned triggers when you are hit.

Basically harpooned jumps in the middle of the tlt sequence because as soon as you are hit "when you are hit" it triggers and does its thing. 

The dice cancel and the Harpooned trigger do not happen at the same time. Harpooned happens when you are hit, the dice are canceled after that is determined.

 

This is exactly how I interpreted this. You are hit by TLT before the dice are cancelled therefore the harpooned condition happens after taking 1 damage from TLT but before the dice are cancelled. 

Nothing to do with initiative, which would be hugely unfair. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm 100% it's unfair to player, 'specialy in a mirror match. I hope this will be FAQ soon.

 

2 hours ago, Icelom said:

 

Basically harpooned jumps in the middle of the tlt sequence because as soon as you are hit "when you are hit" it triggers and does its thing. 

 

The dice cancel and the Harpooned trigger do not happen at the same time. Harpooned happens when you are hit, the dice are canceled after that is determined.

 

From the rules references

Quote
  • If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the player with initiative chooses which of his abilities to resolve and resolves them in the order of his choosing. Then the opposing player does the same for his own abilities.

 

 

from the FAQ

Quote

resolving siMultaneous effects

If an effect simultaneously resolves against multiple ships, the player controlling the effect chooses the order in which the ships are affected. For example, the effects of Assault Missiles and "Chopper" (ship) are resolved in the order of their controlling player against multiple targets.

If a player has simultaneous effects that resolve from the same trigger, that player resolves the entirety of one effect (and any subsequent effects from that trigger) before resolving the others. For example, if a ship overlaps multiple cluster mine tokens at the same time, the controlling player resolves one of the cluster mines (rolling for damage and removing it) before resolving any remaining effects (even if the ship was already destroyed).

So, when you resolve something, you must go to the end before resolving another thing, so you must 1-deal a Damage and 2-cancel your dices. Then you can go to another effect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Image result for the room tearing me apart

Valid points have been made as to why the Harpooned! condition CAN (and perhaps even SHOULD) trigger based on the RAW,. However, it still seems like a really REALLY jackhole thing to do. Figures they included this missile in a scum pack... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Grendelator said:

I'm 100% it's unfair to player, 'specialy in a mirror match. I hope this will be FAQ soon.

 

From the rules references

 

from the FAQ

So, when you resolve something, you must go to the end before resolving another thing, so you must 1-deal a Damage and 2-cancel your dices. Then you can go to another effect.

As quoted in your FAQ Quote
 

Quote

If a player has simultaneous effects that resolve from the same trigger

Harpooned and TLT do not have the same trigger, the rule you quoted has nothing to do with the interaction. Harpooned is triggered in the middle of tlt. You cant just take a rule and try and bash this situation into it.

 

Edited by Icelom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Icelom said:

Harpooned and TLT do not have the same trigger, the rule you quoted has nothing to do with the interaction. Harpooned is triggered in the middle of tlt. You cant just take a rule and try and bash this situation into it.

 

Isn't the trigger is "when your attack hit/when you're hit by an attack" ? (an attack hit when there is at least one hit/crit uncancelled)

Which is the same (for me).

I'm not for this combo, I found it totally unfair and it should not work with weapons "cancelling dices" to get an effect, but looking at the rules, it sadly work (for me again). I have a little tournament toomorrow and will talk with other players about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Turns out that we have an unofficial answer from FFG on this, as a TO from FFG headquarters has initially ruled on both this interaction, and on Genius/Trajectory Simulator, for an upcoming event there:

vANy5M9.jpg

It's a SUPER clumsy way of saying it, but basically, after each TLT shot, Harpooned checks for uncancelled crits, then TLT cancels dice results.  I think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think (english is not my first language in case you did'nt notice ;) )it's only sayine the check for harpooned is check with the 1st and the 2nd attack, and if the condition happen with the first shot, it doesn't stop the TLT to do the second shot.

It doesn't say anything about the timing of which effect come first. Only saying that it happen "between compare results ans deal damage" which we were allready aware of. Same trigger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Icelom said:

Harpooned and TLT do not have the same trigger, the rule you quoted has nothing to do with the interaction. Harpooned is triggered in the middle of tlt. You cant just take a rule and try and bash this situation into it.

The trigger from Harpooned!: "When you are hit by an attack, [do something]"

The trigger from Twin Laser Turret: "Each time this attack hits, [do something]"

I think these look like the same trigger--the trigger is when an attack hits.  If they aren't the same trigger, I don't know why that would be the case.

Edited by theBitterFig

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's the goal behind pointing out that the Harpooned! condition card checks for uncancelled critical hit results between the "Compare Results" and "Deal Damage" steps even when using a TLT if not because (with initiative on the defender) Harpooned! could be triggered? If a TLT attack cannot trigger the Harpooned! condition card then there was zero point to say you check Harpooned! at this point even when defending from a TLT as it would always fail.

Ultimately the Facebook post being quoted is non-binding as it is not FFG Official (and even when things are FFG Official [think Frank Brooks or a spoiler article] they're not always the rule until they hit the FAQ - TOs have some discretion here). Furthermore, it appears to answer a question not being asked rather than directly answer the question being asked: "Can a Twin Laser Turret attack trigger the Harpooned! condition card if the defender has initiative over the attacker?" <-- That question was not answered. The question that got answered is: "When does an attack hit and, thus, when does the Harpooned! condition card and TLT dice cancelation trigger?" (A question not asked because we have a bloody flowchart that makes this irrefutably clear.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

The trigger from Harpooned!: "When you are hit by an attack, [do something]"

The trigger from Twin Laser Turret: "Each time this attack hits, [do something]"

I think these look like the same trigger--the trigger is when an attack hits.  If they aren't the same trigger, I don't know why that would be the case.

Quote

Each time this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage. Then cancel all dice results.

Yes the 1 damage happens on the hit trigger... then you cancel all dice results (after the trigger triggered). The cancel all dice results has nothing to do with the "hit" trigger.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote
  • If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the player with initiative chooses which of his abilities to resolve and resolves them in the order of his choosing. Then the opposing player does the same for his own abilities.

 

So you must go to the end of the TLT thing, which is cancelling dice, before going to resolve the harpooned condition (if TLT player have initiative ofc)

Edited by Grendelator

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

The trigger from Harpooned!: "When you are hit by an attack, [do something]"

The trigger from Twin Laser Turret: "Each time this attack hits, [do something]"

I think these look like the same trigger--the trigger is when an attack hits.  If they aren't the same trigger, I don't know why that would be the case.

THE DEFENDER has: "When you are hit by an attack, [do something]"

THE ATTACKER has: "Each time this attack hits, [do something]"

BOTH triggers are when an attack hits.

THE PLAYER WITH INITIATIVE resolves his/her ability first as the timing window for the trigger is identical. TRIGGER DOES NOT EQUAL RESOLVE.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Yes the 1 damage happens on the hit trigger... then you cancel all dice results (after the trigger triggered). The cancel all dice results has nothing to do with the "hit" trigger.

 

So I might finally begin to understand what you're saying, but ultimately disagree with it.  Let me see if I'm getting your interpretation right: The "Then Cancel all dice results." line will happen whether or not there is a hit, and ultimately before 'on hit' triggers can resolve.  Sort of, "Each time this attack hits, [do X].  [Do Y either way]."

Here's what I don't like about it.  That's not how Gunner behaves.  The last line of Gunner specifies that "You cannot perform another attack this round." at the end, in the same relative place as "Then cancel all dice results." in Twin Laser Turret, but it doesn't necessarily preempt other "after attacking" triggers from resolving.  It is viewed as conditional on using the previous aspect of the Gunner card, and performing a primary weapon attack.

Part of this is the fact that in English, we read left-to-right.  We've got to complete the "Each time this attack hits, [do X]." line of text before we can get to the "[Do Y either way]."

 

26 minutes ago, ZealuxMyr said:

What's the goal behind pointing out that the Harpooned! condition card checks for uncancelled critical hit results between the "Compare Results" and "Deal Damage" steps even when using a TLT if not because (with initiative on the defender) Harpooned! could be triggered? If a TLT attack cannot trigger the Harpooned! condition card then there was zero point to say you check Harpooned! at this point even when defending from a TLT as it would always fail.

Ultimately the Facebook post being quoted is non-binding as it is not FFG Official (and even when things are FFG Official [think Frank Brooks or a spoiler article] they're not always the rule until they hit the FAQ - TOs have some discretion here). Furthermore, it appears to answer a question not being asked rather than directly answer the question being asked: "Can a Twin Laser Turret attack trigger the Harpooned! condition card if the defender has initiative over the attacker?" <-- That question was not answered. The question that got answered is: "When does an attack hit and, thus, when does the Harpooned! condition card and TLT dice cancelation trigger?" (A question not asked because we have a bloody flowchart that makes this irrefutably clear.)

Here, since it's clear that Harpooned! can trigger from a TLT, I would prefer TOs use their discretion to allow them to trigger in all circumstances.  Personally, I'd hope any FAQ would eventually rule that Harpooned! cannot be triggered from a "cancel all results" attack (for game balance reasons), but even if that never happens, I want the consistency.  I don't like it when a coin flip can determine how mechanics function (unless it's something like APL, but that's intentionally built into the card), and that how mechanics function can change from round to round.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I spoke to the TO of a little tournament I did this week end (where my freaking dices fell on me :( 4 dices + TL + focus : 1 hit for most of my games......, and my opponent always have at least 1 evade, even on 1 die...)

 

When you take the PTL and EI FAQ you can do both then take 2 stress.

the ". Then..." is the big point in this.

Same thing with Kanan crew and inertail damperners.

 

If you take the TLT, there still is the ". Then cancel your dices", and the TO argument was the condition trigger before it.

So, if your attack hit with at least one crit : you deal 1 damage AND you trigger the condition". Then " you cancel all of your dices.

 

Can't wait for an official POV on this

Edited by Grendelator

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the 4.4.1 FAQ addresses this:

Quote

Harpooned !

When an attack hits a ship (after "Compare Results," before "Deal Damage") with the Harpooned! condition and has 1 or more uncanceled crit results, the condition resolves at that time (see "Timing Chart for Performing an Attack" on page 8). Note that this occurs even if those crit results are subsequently canceled, as in the case of Twin Laser Turret, Ion Cannon, Jamming Beam, etc, but not if the crit results are altered or removed at an earlier step, such as by Heavy Laser Cannon's effect.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...