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Cartchan

"Harpooned !" and TLT

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Here is a debate we had in my group:

  • A ship attacks with a TLT. Defender has the "Harpooned !" condition.
  • Attacker rolls Crit-Hit-Hit. Defnedre rolls Evade-Evade-Blank.

Does the "Harpooned !" splash damage trigger ?

I would say it depends on initiative.

My reasonning is:

We are in step 6.iv of the Timing Chart: "Determine whether the defender is hit by the attack or the attack misses". This attacks hits.

"Harpooned !" states "When you are hit by an attack if there is at least 1 uncanceled critical result, each other ship at Range 1 suffers 1 damage. Then discard this card and receive 1 facedown Damage card. ".

But TLT states "Each time this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage. Then cancel all dice results."

So TLT and "Harpooned !" share the same trigger (the attack hits):

  • If the attacker has initiative, it cancel all dice results first. Then there is no uncanceled crit result for "Harpooned !" to trigger.
  • If the defender has initiative, "Harpooned !" triggers first then the attacker cancel all dice results.

Whatdoyouthink ?

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Cartchan said:

So TLT and "Harpooned !" share the same trigger (the attack hits):

  • If the attacker has initiative, it cancel all dice results first. Then there is no uncanceled crit result for "Harpooned !" to trigger.
  • If the defender has initiative, "Harpooned !" triggers first then the attacker cancel all dice results.

Whatdoyouthink ?

I would do it the exact other way round.
But thats just me.

Edited by Hannes Solo

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3 minutes ago, Hannes Solo said:

I would do it the exact other way round.

Why ?

From the FAQ:

Quote

Q: If both players have effects that resolve at the same time (or from the same trigger), which player resolves their abilities first?

A: The player with initiative resolves all abilities he would like to resolve, then the other player resolves all abilities he would like to resolve.

 

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3 minutes ago, Hannes Solo said:

If I was the attacker and had Initiative I would resolve Harpooned bevor I would resolve TLT so I could trigger teh HarpBOOM,

Is it to the defender to resolve the "Harpooned !" condition or to the attacker ?

The wording on the card is "When you are hit"

 

 

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1 minute ago, Cartchan said:

Is it to the defender to resolve the "Harpooned !" condition or to the attacker ?

The wording on the card is "When you are hit"

Ah, see what you mean. You are probably right. Is there a clear ruling who is the owner of an ability?

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6 hours ago, SaszaPL said:

There is no uncancelled critical results in TLT shots, same as on Ion Cannon and similar weapons. You cancel all your dice. And Xizor's FAQ ruled on that this way.

But Harpooned potentially triggers before dice are cancelled, hence the need for clarification.

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I am afraid that this is working RAW, but should never be the case (RAI)... 

I hope the 6. point will be extended with:

Quote

 

v. Resolve cancellation of dice results (i.e. TLT, Ion Cannon, etc.) that happens after determining if attack hit.

vi. Resolve abilities triggering upon "uncancelled results" of attack that did hit (i.e. Harpooned).

 

 

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On 11/10/2017 at 2:52 PM, SaszaPL said:

There is no uncancelled critical results in TLT shots, same as on Ion Cannon and similar weapons. You cancel all your dice. And Xizor's FAQ ruled on that this way.

TLT / Ion:

...[do some stuff]..."Then CANCEL all dice results"

Harpoon:

....."if there are any UNCANCELLED crit results" ....[do some stuff]

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On 11/10/2017 at 6:03 AM, thespaceinvader said:

The precedent is in Xizor's FAQ entry, which indicates that his ability doesn't work on TLTs

This is not a strong argument. Xizor affects who suffers uncancelled crits. Suffering damage happens distinctly after determining whether the attack hit.

Harpooned cares about whether you are hit with any "kaboom" icons still on the dice -- just like TLT does.

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Basically, it all depends on when the explicit triggers are for the various cards... so let's look at them.

  • Twin Laser Turret states, "Each time this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage. Then cancel all dice results."
  • Harpooned! states, "When you are hit by an attack if there is at least 1 uncanceled critical result, each other ship at Range 1 suffers 1 damage.  Then discard this card and receive 1 facedown Damage card."

We know that for effects with the same trigger, each player can choose the order that their own effects resolve in, with the player holding initiative resolving everything before the player without.  That leaves us a number of possibilities, based on who controls initiative, and specifically, who controls the effect of Harpooned:

  • IF "HARPOONED!" IS CONTROLLED BY THE ATTACKER... (because it is a card effect placed by the attacker)
    • ...the attacker may resolve the TLT effect of cancelling dice before Harpooned (thereby preventing its activation), OR...
    • ...the attacker may resolve Harpooned before cancelling dice with TLT.
  • IF "HARPOONED!" IS CONTROLLED BY THE DEFENDER... (because it is a card effect attached to the defender's ship)
    • ...AND THE ATTACKER HAS INITIATIVE, then TLT is resolved first, cancelling all dice results, preventing Harpooned from resolving.
    • ...AND THE DEFENDER HAS INITIATIVE, then Harpooned resolves first, followed by TLT damage & dice cancellation.

I'm inclined to lean towards the last two interpretations, as the cards are written, since all of the text on it is written from the perspective of the ship in question.  (When YOU are hit.  Then (you) discard this card, and (you) receive 1 facedown damage.  When you are destroyed, each ship at Range 1 suffers 1 damage.)

ADDED VIA EDIT:   I'm not necessarily saying that this is how the cards are INTENDED to interact, but as written, that's how they APPEAR to work together.  To me, at least.

Edited by emeraldbeacon

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Im laying this out to explain my opinion on the cards RAW and I agree with emeraldbeacon's second scenario.  Determination of whether a ship is hit or not is made at the end of Step 6 on the timing chart.

Hit and crit results are cancelled by evade results to determine if the ship is hit in the middle of step 6.

TLT triggers when you determine if there is a hit.

Harpooned also triggers at the same time, upon determination of whether there is a hit.

Because initiative decides what triggers first, my opinion is that if an attacking player with TLT has initiative, 1 damage is dealt and dice are cancelled, prior to Harpooned activating.

If the Defender with Harpooned has initiative, then dice have not been cancelled yet and Harpooned triggers.

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I can't understand why Harpoon Missiles would be triggered by TLT.

Looking on the text clarification on Xizor, it's obvious that it's the same window of effects that affects the behavior of Xizor's ability, so we should treat it likewise, and that is more than sufficient for me.

On page 7 of the FAQ, is stated that simultaneous effects can be triggered and resolved as fit to the player controlling the effect, but one effect, and subsequent effects, should be resolved before another effect on the same window of execution can be resolved. With that in mind, I can't resolve harpooned before the attack and it's effects are resolved, it's not like a response reaction like you can see on card games. This is the same mechanics that determines that a plasma torpedoes effect will be resolved before a harpooned condition, stripping a shield from the defender before an eventual damage is caused with harpooned.

And last, but not less important, when we read all the cards that are refering to uncanceled damage, that makes zero sense to me that TLT effect that cancels the damage will not be considerated, if that was the case, the text on harpooned condition should state a trigger on step 6 (Compare Results), just like the clarification of Crack Shot that states: Crack Shot must be used at the start of the “Compare Results” step

Edited by encail

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I firmly believe this comes down to who has initiative.

The attacker has the card text after an attack hits to resolve for TLT and the defender has the Harpooned! card text to resolve after an attack hits ("When you are hit by an attack [...]").

So if the attacker has initiative his/her ability to "Then cancel all dice results." resolves first, preventing Harpooned! from resolving as there are no uncancelled dice at all. If the defender has initiative his/her ability to check for uncancelled critical hit results resolves before the attacker cancels all dice results, and therefore (if there is a critical hit result showing) Harpooned! can be triggered by a TLT or similar weapon.

 

As there is no official ruling and quoting how to resolve abilities that trigger at the same time (the attack hits being the trigger here) from the FAQ doesn't seem to convince people anymore: check with your local TO/Marshal/Judge before tabling a list that relies on this interpretation.

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Leaving this issue to initiative, seens like a really bad design/broken mechanics to me... Well, it's only my opinion. Here in my country there's a strong belief that this issue should be solved by initiative too.

I brought my argument about Xizor ability clarification and the similarity with the harpooned condition to the largest discussion group here (I believe).

This is the base of the argument, they have the same window: when he/you is/are hit, and they share a similar condition: uncanceled (critical symbol), plus uncanceled (damage symbol) for Xizor.

Here in my country the text on Xizor clarification is discarded as argument to analyse any other behavior, because it's an exception that affects Xizor, and Xizor only. If on the FAQ the text on Xizor was not a clarification, and rather changed the card wording ,as you can see in Manaroo: "This card should read", Xizor clarification could be used as an argument in this case.

I am not convinced about this way of thinking, the choice of words on the clarification were precise enough to rely on, but it has a logic behind it that I can understand and respect, disagreeing but undertanding that is a possibility.

Edited by encail

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Even if we leave this up to the player with initiative to decide, EmeraldBeacon points out that not knowing who controls the harpooned condition makes a significant difference. In order for one to be acceptable, the other has to be defined. Otherwise the person who has initiative gets to decide nothing.

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