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[Focus Topic] Intrigue and Duels (Week 6)

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Also, that’s one good thing about the Center action... if your opponent is consistently dancing around in Air stance laughing at you, or Striking as Earth like crazy to blunt your katana with his sturdy jimbei, take one turn doing Center (in Air stance is even safer) and name the pesky ring the other dude is abusing. Even if they see it coming and change stances, avoiding the extra Strife, at least you have broken their routine. 

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On 11/15/2017 at 6:57 PM, Chilitoke said:

A problem immediately became clear, there is no guidelines for how many RP should be given to an objective, none at all. i therefore put a goal of 2 on everything to not bog it down and thus the intrigue was done in like 1.5 turns.

 

On 11/15/2017 at 6:57 PM, Chilitoke said:

About point 4.
We desperately need guidelines for RP value of objectives.

Page 157, in the sample objectives:

Quote

 

Appeal to a Person or Group

"The GM sets the number of rhetorical points the characters must make to complete this objective (and can tell the players this value, or not, at their discretion). The focus attribute of the target of the Persuade action is a good starting value for this number, but the GM can adjust this value up or down based on factors like stubbornness and the character’s innate resistance to the perspective being proposed."

Discern Someone's Qualities

"The GM sets the number of rhetorical points needed to achieve this objective (and can tell the player this value or not, at the GM’s discretion). The vigilance attribute of the target is a good starting value for this number, but the GM can adjust this value up or down based on the target’s wariness in the situation."

Spread A Rumour

"The GM sets the number of rhetorical successes needed to achieve this objective (and can tell the player this value or not, at the GM’s discretion). The vigilance attribute of the character in the scene with the highest status is a good starting point, but the GM can adjust this value up or down based on that character’s disposition toward the rumor in question."

 

 

2 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

There are 4 actions in the current duel mechanic

  • Strike: Attack.
  • Center: Make their next attack harder
  • Provoke: Make your next attack easier
  • Calming Breath: recover 1 strife or 1 fatigue.

Thematically, Provoke feels like it should do strife, instead.

I miss the old Raise or Strike of 3E. That was quick AND exciting.

I'd agree. Strife racking up continuously should be an important bit. And Provoke is a largely useless action; firstly it's a lot harder than Centre, meaning you're alway reducing TN less than a Centre-ing character is increasing it given the same rolls, plus you only have 1 turn to take advantage of it, and unless you can play initiative games in the staredown to get two turns in a row, you can't capitalise on it without your opponent getting a stab on you without you being centred.

For that matter, getting two turns in a row gets around centre, too, I've just realised. If you deliberately 'throw' the staredown in round 1, your opponent centres, you strike (and fluff it because TN + a billion) and then hammer the staredown round 2, you can strike again before they can re-centre and they get no bonus to their TN. I'm not saying that's wrong per se - if done deliberately it could be argued to be a 'feint' to draw the defender out of position - but it does make Centre as an action feel a bit lacklustre.

Making a one-round high impact 'narrative combat check' rather than a skirmish-with-bolt-ons might be the way to go. I know I keep harping on about them, but the showdowns from Edge of the Empire work well.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I'd agree. Strife racking up continuously should be an important bit. And Provoke is a largely useless action; firstly it's a lot harder than Centre, meaning you're alway reducing TN less than a Centre-ing character is increasing it given the same rolls, plus you only have 1 turn to take advantage of it, and unless you can play initiative games in the staredown to get two turns in a row, you can't capitalise on it without your opponent getting a stab on you without you being centred.

For that matter, getting two turns in a row gets around centre, too, I've just realised. If you deliberately 'throw' the staredown in round 1, your opponent centres, you strike (and fluff it because TN + a billion) and then hammer the staredown round 2, you can strike again before they can re-centre and they get no bonus to their TN. I'm not saying that's wrong per se - if done deliberately it could be argued to be a 'feint' to draw the defender out of position - but it does make Centre as an action feel a bit lacklustre.

Since the first update, the difference in TN alteration between Center and Provoke has been toned down though. Provoke still has a higher hurdle to pass, but when contestants start rolling 4+ successes on any roll, things even out. What Provoke really lacks is a secondary effect like what Center has... actually, not that "secondary"; I feel that the Ring guesswork and Strife dumping is the main purpose of Center and the TN increase is but a side bonus (and combined with Battle in the Mind, that's a guaranteed 3 free Strife on a slower opponent).

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4 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

 

Page 157, in the sample objectives:

 

I'd agree. Strife racking up continuously should be an important bit. And Provoke is a largely useless action; firstly it's a lot harder than Centre, meaning you're alway reducing TN less than a Centre-ing character is increasing it given the same rolls, plus you only have 1 turn to take advantage of it, and unless you can play initiative games in the staredown to get two turns in a row, you can't capitalise on it without your opponent getting a stab on you without you being centred.

For that matter, getting two turns in a row gets around centre, too, I've just realised. If you deliberately 'throw' the staredown in round 1, your opponent centres, you strike (and fluff it because TN + a billion) and then hammer the staredown round 2, you can strike again before they can re-centre and they get no bonus to their TN. I'm not saying that's wrong per se - if done deliberately it could be argued to be a 'feint' to draw the defender out of position - but it does make Centre as an action feel a bit lacklustre.

Making a one-round high impact 'narrative combat check' rather than a skirmish-with-bolt-ons might be the way to go. I know I keep harping on about them, but the showdowns from Edge of the Empire work well.

Were it mine to fix, I'd make duels use the following Process set, replacing current:

  • At start, each player sets their defense at their vigilance, 2 opportunity may be spent once on the assessment to increase this by 1.
  • Bid for initiative and set stance and grips.
  • actions:
    • Focus: Raise your defense  by 1.
      May only be done up to Void times per scene. Spend a void point for each focus after the limit
    • Center: Roll your attack dice, less any previously set aside, then you may set aside 1 from the roll.
      • Maximum dice set aside is your weapon skill or void ring, whichever is lower. 
      • once maximum dice set aside is reached, the center action is unavailable.
      • Strife on the set aside is taken both when first set aside, and when kept in the strike.
    • Provoke: forfeit 1 honor to use a TN=Opponent Vigilance social skill to inflict 1+Bonus Successes strife upon the opponent
    • Prepare: as existing
    • Strike: TN=Opponent Defense Martial  Arts [melee or unarmed] (Stance); reduce own defense by 1 (to minimum 1)
      • Set aside dice from center may be swapped in for blanks at any step
        • set asides do not increase kept dice
        • 1 void point can be spent to add 2 set aside dice and increase kept dice by 1.
      • gain 1 glory per 2 opponent defense if you inflict a critical hit.
    • Concede: Lose no honor from wager, but lose the duel and glory wager.

The TN climbs until you strike; the more you strike, the easier you are to hit. The harder they are to hit (and it's somewhat obvious), the more glory one can gain.

Self-scales. You can strike early, for less glory.

Center now makes it part of a risk set. Set aside some explodes? Sure! Pay the strife (if any) twice!

Finishing blow works normal.

Bystanders:

  • Wager, minor: risk 1 zeni and pick your favorite. you have 1 share in the minor pot.
  • Wager, major: risk 1 honor, 1 bu, and pick your favorite. You have 1 share in the major pot
  • provoke: forfeit 1 honor and 1 glory, and make a TN=(higher of Vigilance or School Rank) social roll or use a shuji to inflict one+(bonus successes / 2, round down) strife on target.
  • cheer: forfeit 1 honor, and make a TN=(higher of Vigilance or School Rank) social roll to remove 0+ (Bonus successes/2, round up) strife
  • Mark: TN=Targets School Rank Command (stance): if a skirmish results before your next turn, you immediately may strike your foe. You may not change stance next turn.
  • Raise the Odds: TN= 1+ Target's (School Rank/2) Social roll to force the minimum coin to wager on target by 1; Rhetoric points neeeded = their school rank doubled.

At end of duel, all who wagered zeni and picked the winner split the pot by shares from those who wagered zeni against the loser. Repeat for the Major pot Those who wagered against the loser lose their 

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On 11/21/2017 at 11:31 AM, Magnus Grendel said:

[A helpful reference]

Thanks a bunch!

In other news, would anyone here allow charge to be used during duels?
due to : "Characters can also select any other action they possess that would logically function in a duel"
Reasons to included it should be as a way to deal damage regardless of TN to hit. Thus give people an option to deal with center spam.

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35 minutes ago, Chilitoke said:

Thanks a bunch!

In other news, would anyone here allow charge to be used during duels?
due to : "Characters can also select any other action they possess that would logically function in a duel"
Reasons to included it should be as a way to deal damage regardless of TN to hit. Thus give people an option to deal with center spam.

No - for one key reason:

Beta Update, Page 9:

Quote

p. 165, Actions (Skirmishes): Remove the “Charge” action.

There are alternatives with similar effects. Rushing Avalanche Style has a still-hurt-them-if-you-miss opportunity, for example. 

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