# Minimum TN

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A number of abilities reduce the TN of a check, some by potentially large numbers. The book says that there are no TN 0 checks in the game but it's not clear if that is referring to all checks or just Base TN. So can a reduction in TN reduce the value to 0? What about less than 0? This is very relevant for schools like the Shinjo Outrider and the Isawa Elementalist.

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Page 13 has a sidebar about TN0.

Short answer is: TN cannot be reduced to 0. If a roll had a TN of at least 1, it will never be reduced to 0. It something has TN of 0, it's not worth rolling for.

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4 hours ago, WHW said:

Page 13 has a sidebar about TN0.

Short answer is: TN cannot be reduced to 0. If a roll had a TN of at least 1, it will never be reduced to 0. It something has TN of 0, it's not worth rolling for.

Most things agree with that, other then some weirdness in the GM approach difficulty section "the GM should reduce the TN by 1–3 (to a minimum of 0)" which I assume just means if they pick a super relevant approach they don't roll anymore?

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19 minutes ago, rcuhljr said:

Most things agree with that, other then some weirdness in the GM approach difficulty section "the GM should reduce the TN by 1–3 (to a minimum of 0)" which I assume just means if they pick a super relevant approach they don't roll anymore?

I would rule either say there is no need to roll, or let them roll if there are effects that rely on bonus successes or opportunities.

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3 hours ago, jmoschner said:

I would rule either say there is no need to roll, or let them roll if there are effects that rely on bonus successes or opportunities.

As would I. Theoretically, a TN –1 might be, "Add one success"... save for the minimum in the GM chapter.

The player sidebar needs reconciliation with the GM chapter.

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If the character can’t fail, there shouldn’t be a check. It might be better to put a minimum TN in a formal rule regardless, but a TN strictly lower than 1 means the check can’t fail - and thus shouldn’t be made at all.

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3 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

If the character can’t fail, there shouldn’t be a check. It might be better to put a minimum TN in a formal rule regardless, but a TN strictly lower than 1 means the check can’t fail - and thus shouldn’t be made at all.

There are a number of edge cases where the results are still of value... especially in conflicts, where opportunity costs are an issue.

EG, guy has been reduced to TN0 to be hit in a skirmish (and so is auto-hit), but the opportunity is needed to actually hit him at that range and/or to do a crit.

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16 hours ago, WHW said:

Page 13 has a sidebar about TN0.

Short answer is: TN cannot be reduced to 0. If a roll had a TN of at least 1, it will never be reduced to 0. It something has TN of 0, it's not worth rolling for.

11 hours ago, rcuhljr said:

Most things agree with that, other then some weirdness in the GM approach difficulty section "the GM should reduce the TN by 1–3 (to a minimum of 0)" which I assume just means if they pick a super relevant approach they don't roll anymore?

Given that the sidebar on page 13 doesn't mention TN reduction. I'm inclined to believe that the minimum of zero referenced here applies across the board. As Aramis said above I think you'd still want to roll for bonus successes and opportunities.

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3 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

There are a number of edge cases where the results are still of value... especially in conflicts, where opportunity costs are an issue.

EG, guy has been reduced to TN0 to be hit in a skirmish (and so is auto-hit), but the opportunity is needed to actually hit him at that range and/or to do a crit.

If you want to do more than merely hit, like getting a crit, there’s an possibility of failure. In that case a check could be made, yes.

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So the Mirumoto Bushi in the new preview has a TN reduction ability and states to a minimum of 1. This is much more likely to apply to other similar abilities than the gm approach section so that put this discussion to bed.

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2 hours ago, Norgrath said:

So the Mirumoto Bushi in the new preview has a TN reduction ability and states to a minimum of 1. This is much more likely to apply to other similar abilities than the gm approach section so that put this discussion to bed.

Many existing don't include it. It only settles it for the ones that include it.

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Yeah, I’m going to say it’s put to bed when every situation is specifically addressed.

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