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clanofwolves

Ships with arc need to matter again...

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So I’ve been perusing the forums, looking at the major beefs (even pre 2016 nerfing) and it seems there may be a thread running through all the, “help from TLTs”, “help from Bombs”, “help from Jumpmasters”, “help from Miranda”, “help from Nym”....and that is, 80 degree arc-ed ships need to really matter again. T-65s, TIEs, A-Wings, Interceptors, B-Wings. The game we love in our heart is the core of the Star Wars universe, and these are majority of that core. Missing the mechanic in which dials and piloting not only matter, but piloting IS paramount to victory is what I believe is fueling much of our salt that pours out on many different ships that fail at giving us this. Instead, these plastic things give us Space Ship-y things that shoot turrets and plod around, wiping our joyful ships back into the foam. This is madness.

Let’s get piloting back in this game!!

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While I agree with you to an extent, I think part of the problem is players not adjusting their play to face these turret, bomb carrying builds. They're in too much of a hurry to kill something. Patience and positioning are missing from a lot of players game plans. I'm guilty of it too. 

I'm sure most players have heard the Old saying,"Don't just stand there, do something". Against a patient player this will be disastrous. 

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primary arc only outmanuever into base rules of the game plz

course that just gets primary arcs to matter again, problems with the OT ships stem from FFG not knowing what they were doing in the early waves (or knowing even less, depending on your point of view)

simplistic mechanics + mathematical inefficiency = specific fixes needed

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Just now, Stoneface said:

While I agree with you to an extent, I think part of the problem is players not adjusting their play to face these turret, bomb carrying builds. They're in too much of a hurry to kill something. Patience and positioning are missing from a lot of players game plans. I'm guilty of it too. 

I'm sure most players have heard the Old saying,"Don't just stand there, do something". Against a patient player this will be disastrous. 

It wouldn't be an issue if turreted ships were appropriately priced, and they would have the limited movement (to compensate which they need a turret for).

When a ship has mobility, turret, and high PS like Nym, there really isn't much a traditional arc dodger can do. Maneuvering around only works if you have a significant advantage over your opponent in terms of movement. In newer waves, that doesn't seem to be the case.

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My thought was to change a fundamental game rule.  Add a line to the rules reference that says:

"If the defender is not in the attacker's firing arc, the defender rolls one additional defense die."

I really don't think it breaks the game.  Turrets still have the uncanny advantage of always getting to shoot.

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I can't remember the last time I used a turret only list in a game. 

Besides Quad TLT and its clone Quad/Trip Wookies.......what list without any 80 degree arc ships even remotely scares people still?

Edited by Boom Owl

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21 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

My thought was to change a fundamental game rule.  Add a line to the rules reference that says:

"If the defender is not in the attacker's firing arc, the defender rolls one additional defense die."

I really don't think it breaks the game.  Turrets still have the uncanny advantage of always getting to shoot.

 

That seems a bit too extreme to me. I like the idea of PWTs not getting a bonus range 1 die outside of the primary arc.

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6 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I can't remember the last time I used a turret only list in a game. 

Besides Quad TLT and its clone Quad/Trip Wookies.......what list without any 80 degree arc ships even remotely intimates people still?

basically every single competitive list pre-errata, including the last two Worlds winning lists

probably most lists post-errata, with at least every high placing list having a non-80 degree only arc ship.

 

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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5 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

basically every single competitive list pre-errata

probably most lists post-errata, with at least every high placing list having a non-80 degree only arc ship.

 

 

Maybe that will be true for the absolute top tier of the competitive game ( Top 16 etc. at major tournaments ).

Still I am not 100% convinced there are any turret only lists out there that have consistent matchups post-FAQ. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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8 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Maybe that will be true for the absolute top tier of the competitive game ( Top 16 etc. at major tournaments ).

Still I am not 100% convinced there are any turret only lists out there that have consistent matchups post-FAQ. 

Double shadowcaster, Miranda dash. Miranda Nym. DenNym... how these all fare post G4H we’ll find out over Regionals season, but it would be ridiculous to think that these archetypes, some of which have been around for a very long time, will pass into obscurity.

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7 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

Double shadowcaster, Miranda dash. Miranda Nym. DenNym... how these all fare post G4H we’ll find out over Regionals season, but it would be ridiculous to think that these archetypes, some of which have been around for a very long time, will pass into obscurity.

I dont see any of those becoming useless.

But besides the double caster they get almost 100% dumpstered by anything with Kylo Ren. You dont even need RAC. 

The matchups are at least even against an ordinance heavy list.

My general feeling is that we will see a shift to lists that can run BOTH Turrets & Ordinance. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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no, you need RAC

because RAC is a PS 10 turret, and therefore far and away the easiest way to use and abuse Kylo Ren's ability. You will simply never see Kylo crew on any other platform competitively.

run with Quickdraw, there are no 80-arc-only ships in that list and the list itself is more than 50% turret

it is very difficult to properly illustrate just how much easier it is to use a turret than any other kind of ship, but their ease of use has consistently reflected their competitive tip-top-viability for just about every wave since 5

 

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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3 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

no, you need RAC

because RAC is a PS 10 turret, and therefore far and away the easiest way to use and abuse Kylo Ren's ability. You will simply never see Kylo crew on any other platform competitively.

run with Quickdraw, there are no 80-arc-only ships in that list and the list itself is more than 50% turret

 

 

Guess we shall see soon enough. 

Not offering fact based evidence. 

Just a feeling. A hope really.

Maybe the tides have turned. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

“help from TLTs”, “help from Bombs”, “help from Jumpmasters”, “help from Miranda”, “help from Nym”

You’re in luck

Autothrusters 

Genius and Advanced SLAM nerfs

Mega Jumpmaster nerf

Advanced SLAM nerf

Genius nerf

;)

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I find it really silly that people think of or present autothrusters as some kind of general counter to turrets of any kind when they're restricted to very specific ships that not everyone wants to fly

the erratas are valid, at least. Very much looking forward to trajectory simulator, seismic charge Nym

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Just now, ficklegreendice said:

I find it really silly that people think of or present autothrusters as some kind of general counter to turrets of any kind when they're restricted to very specific ships

the erratas are valid, at least

I am a silly person.  Otherwise I wouldn’t be playing with little ships :P

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2 hours ago, RufusDaMan said:

It wouldn't be an issue if turreted ships were appropriately priced, and they would have the limited movement (to compensate which they need a turret for).

When a ship has mobility, turret, and high PS like Nym, there really isn't much a traditional arc dodger can do. Maneuvering around only works if you have a significant advantage over your opponent in terms of movement. In newer waves, that doesn't seem to be the case.

That's been one of my pet peeves since I started playing. A freighter with the agility of a X-wing? Speed I can accept. Barrel rolling a freighter but an X-wing can't? Even a high PS doesn't bother me too much but like you said, when added together with low cost it becomes ridiculous. The fact that you can run 4 naked Jumpmasters in a 100 point game sort of highlights their low cost. I think that's also the greatest number of total health you can get with a 2 agility ship. Four Lambda has a higher total health but with their dial and agility it's not a good comparison.

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I guess at a tournament in Minnesota (heard about it on Radio TCX), Garven, Tarn, Cracken, and Than (or whoever) ARC-170 made it to the top table. Those ships all have forward facing arcs (except the ARC, which has the rear arc as well).

But idk, part of the movies is the falcon taking on 3 or 4 TIE fighters and winning, and it's not even close. Each turret was manned separately, and there were still people to fly it while Han and Luke focused on targeting. That, I think, is the design idea. Hence the Shadow Caster has a mobile arc, because the pilot had to control the turret. Or so I have heard.

So given that overpowered turrets are a part of the Star Wars universe (what is more iconic than the Millennium Falcon?), it is not surprising they dominate the game. Besides, in space, the limitations of turrets are probably not as pronounced as, say, in WWII dog fighting. 

 

However, for the sake of fun game play, I think +1 green die out of arc is the most simple and balanced solution. Also, we will have to see what the new "flight astromech" (the one that is not Chopper) in the Sheathapide can do. It could be the famed "x-wing" fix (or not...R2D2 is still crazy good).

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, HanScottFirst said:

I guess at a tournament in Minnesota (heard about it on Radio TCX), Garven, Tarn, Cracken, and Than (or whoever) ARC-170 made it to the top table. Those ships all have forward facing arcs (except the ARC, which has the rear arc as well).

But idk, part of the movies is the falcon taking on 3 or 4 TIE fighters and winning, and it's not even close. Each turret was manned separately, and there were still people to fly it while Han and Luke focused on targeting. That, I think, is the design idea. Hence the Shadow Caster has a mobile arc, because the pilot had to control the turret. Or so I have heard.

So given that overpowered turrets are a part of the Star Wars universe (what is more iconic than the Millennium Falcon?), it is not surprising they dominate the game. Besides, in space, the limitations of turrets are probably not as pronounced as, say, in WWII dog fighting. 

 

 

True, but ships seem to be much harder to hit. And when they are hit they are usually dead. And people practically never turn around in a small blot of space to chase each other.

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3 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

course that just gets primary arcs to matter again, problems with the OT ships stem from FFG not knowing what they were doing in the early waves (or knowing even less, depending on your point of view)


I'd take the exact opposite view, and say that FFG has lost its way entirely with X-Wing.  While Waves 1-6 were far from perfect (TIE Swarm too good, TIE Phantoms, Fat Han, etc.), the overall enjoyability of gameplay and game balance were much better in the old days.  The efficiency difference between an X-Wing and a B-Wing was pretty close, even if the B-Wing had an edge, whereas comparing a B-Wing to a Scurrg or a Wookie Gunship is a joke nowadays.  While there were still "meta" builds back then, you could make a list using things you thought were cool and had much more of a chance to compete than you do nowadays, where anything off-meta gets wrecked pretty consistently because the lists have been so min-maxxed, leaving much less room for inefficiencies to be compensated through super gameplay.  Triple Scouts was like giving every noob a Rocket Launcher in Halo: sure they didn't know the best ways to use it and might just run around like goons, but they had pretty good chances of nuking a few DMR-pro Inheritors along the way. The skill gap has been substantially lessened in determining games because the raw power and efficiency of top lists is so much higher and straightforward.

Waves 1-6 had a higher average number of ships of the table, so you got to kill more stuff and plan more moves each round.  It actually felt like two squads of star fighters engaging.  Now, with usually 2 ship vs 2 ship matches, it feels more like watching Goku and Vegeta fight Freeza and Cell as four nigh-invincible ships dance around the board for 75 minutes.  Direct-damage and Alpha Strike Spike damage weren't competitive  (and that was a good thing).  Things like Dengaroo and Palp Aces had such degenerative synergy you couldn't even dream of it in your wildest fantasies back in Wave 3. 

Nigh, Waves 1-6 weren't perfect, but they were in my mind a much better overall meta and state of the game.  I think FFG did a much better job curating the new waves and caring for the meta back then.  Now it's just like "HERE'S NYM!" and "HOW 'BOUT SOME HARPOON MADNESS!?" as FFG throws out terribly power-creeped stuff.

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