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One year, one release

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12 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

It seems like when EA does something right, people just move on to the next thing to hate.  FFG doesn't rip us off; they make good products and are pretty fair overall.  It's important to remember that. 

Yes I do agree one hundred percent.  Overall I think ffg is pretty good. It’s just frustrating that we are left in the cold.  I still love armada and would continue playing it even if ffg quit supporting it. Armada is my favorite game of all time.  

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18 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

I am appalled that you consider FFG is as bad as EA. 

I never said I consider them as bad as EA.  I am stating that the only way corporations pay attention to the peasants is to cause them a pr nightmare.  You completely misinterpreted my statement.  

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Alright, I'm gonna pull the trigger - I wanted to wait until Monday, but what the ****:

@ffgjosh - hey man.

I'm pretty sure you're a forum admin, and this isn't really your wheelhouse, but I feel like out of the FFG staff, you're the one that I see referenced most often, so I'm willing to take a chance.

I don't expect you to read this entire thread, and really, I wouldn't want you to - it's gotten a little undignified here and there. But still - I draw your attention here because a fairly vocal group in the community, myself included, have gotten discouraged with what feels like Armada falling by the wayside. There have been a number of threads about it recently, and a few folks on reddit and twitter have also spoken up. We understand that NDAs and company policy definitely probably prohibits you revealing anything upcoming. Fair. I know how it goes.

That being said, I think the community at large would do well to know that Armada is still on FFG's mind and that it hasn't been put on the back burner. Obviously, we're getting a wave soon, but we're not exactly inspired by the way that it's been handled. Don't get me wrong, we're looking forward to the wave itself, but we found out that it was delayed because of a response on twitter. Production flukes happen - we get that. I'd be lying if I said I was completely okay with it, but it happens. But it's not just this wave being delayed. We've been going on a pretty long stretch of waiting for FAQs and there are repeated debates in the rules forum that leave us wondering if FFG will ever address them, and regionals start really soon - folks are just avoiding playing certain upgrades because they can't be certain of how a TO will handle any given ambiguity. There are discussions in the rules forums that have gone in such circles because it's something that only FFG can resolve. Fortunately for thrawn, the guy who made the card stepped in and was able to clarify it - instead of FFG. Additionally, earlier in this thread I referenced that Armada has gotten 7 articles this entire year (excluding rule clarification announcements and championship announcements). I don't think that anyone is expecting a weekly article (hyperbole, there), but we'd like to have some attention, too, you know?

Like I said: You probably can't talk with any kind of certainty, because that'd be an official statement and that's walking onto a bed of nails, but if there's any way you folks can take some time and consider saying something that might assuage some of our concerns beyond "Soon™" I think it would go a long way for us here in the community. We're really looking forward to more Armada, and what I hope is a more engaged FFG here. I swear I'm not tooting my own horn here, but there are some pretty cool ideas to consider in that other thread (https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/263138-stay-on-target-brainstorm-on-how-ffg-can-collaborate-with-the-community/) that I think FFG may want to consider - and honestly, if there's anything we can help with - guest articles, or anything like that, you'll have folks lining up left and right to help out.

I hope my 10:30pm posting hasn't gotten too rambly for you, and I hope you're taking this with the intent that I'm writing it: optimistic concern and worry. We love the game. It's my favorite tabletop game that I've ever played, and I'd hate to see it neglected.

 

 

 

Dangit... The temptation to say "Help me Obi-wan Kenobi" is just too strong.

 

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2 hours ago, FoaS said:

Alright, I'm gonna pull the trigger - I wanted to wait until Monday, but what the ****:

@ffgjosh - hey man.

I'm pretty sure you're a forum admin, and this isn't really your wheelhouse, but I feel like out of the FFG staff, you're the one that I see referenced most often, so I'm willing to take a chance.

I don't expect you to read this entire thread, and really, I wouldn't want you to - it's gotten a little undignified here and there. But still - I draw your attention here because a fairly vocal group in the community, myself included, have gotten discouraged with what feels like Armada falling by the wayside. There have been a number of threads about it recently, and a few folks on reddit and twitter have also spoken up. We understand that NDAs and company policy definitely probably prohibits you revealing anything upcoming. Fair. I know how it goes.

That being said, I think the community at large would do well to know that Armada is still on FFG's mind and that it hasn't been put on the back burner. Obviously, we're getting a wave soon, but we're not exactly inspired by the way that it's been handled. Don't get me wrong, we're looking forward to the wave itself, but we found out that it was delayed because of a response on twitter. Production flukes happen - we get that. I'd be lying if I said I was completely okay with it, but it happens. But it's not just this wave being delayed. We've been going on a pretty long stretch of waiting for FAQs and there are repeated debates in the rules forum that leave us wondering if FFG will ever address them, and regionals start really soon - folks are just avoiding playing certain upgrades because they can't be certain of how a TO will handle any given ambiguity. There are discussions in the rules forums that have gone in such circles because it's something that only FFG can resolve. Fortunately for thrawn, the guy who made the card stepped in and was able to clarify it - instead of FFG. Additionally, earlier in this thread I referenced that Armada has gotten 7 articles this entire year (excluding rule clarification announcements and championship announcements). I don't think that anyone is expecting a weekly article (hyperbole, there), but we'd like to have some attention, too, you know?

Like I said: You probably can't talk with any kind of certainty, because that'd be an official statement and that's walking onto a bed of nails, but if there's any way you folks can take some time and consider saying something that might assuage some of our concerns beyond "Soon™" I think it would go a long way for us here in the community. We're really looking forward to more Armada, and what I hope is a more engaged FFG here. I swear I'm not tooting my own horn here, but there are some pretty cool ideas to consider in that other thread (https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/263138-stay-on-target-brainstorm-on-how-ffg-can-collaborate-with-the-community/) that I think FFG may want to consider - and honestly, if there's anything we can help with - guest articles, or anything like that, you'll have folks lining up left and right to help out.

I hope my 10:30pm posting hasn't gotten too rambly for you, and I hope you're taking this with the intent that I'm writing it: optimistic concern and worry. We love the game. It's my favorite tabletop game that I've ever played, and I'd hate to see it neglected.

 

 

 

Dangit... The temptation to say "Help me Obi-wan Kenobi" is just too strong.

 

That... took chutzpah.  I salute you.  (And it was well written.)

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Bit sad about wave 7, but got Necromunda arriving next week to tide me over. 

GW drew me back in with 1/ great product and 2/ communication on and support of said product (admittedly it's a new release).

It's sales (and especially wargames) 101 - support your product, keep the hype alive (to ultimately sell more stuff!).

Keen to hear why FFG doesn't do this. I'm amazed we don't have a monthly Armada feature keeping it fresh. 

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As a frequent drafter and signatory of NDAs and corporate policies, I can't think of any that I have ever seen or drafted any that would prevent someone from OFFICIALLY saying (because we don't just want some random employee spouting off, we really want to see the appropriate person within FFG officially address our complaints, which have been raised for over a year now)

"Hey we're glad you're excited about the game. We'd love to share the next news release with you guys now but we want to make sure that we have enough content to spread out across the release schedule.  When we get to that point we'll post it straight away. In the mean time, please see the following article written by <insert armada fixture here> on the state of the game."

I mean, I play a ton of FFG games. In other games there are:

- Articles written by community members / champions about the game or about upcoming cards that they've designed, like 2 recent ones for Thrones.

- Spoilers for upcoming product shared with community institutions like podcasts and bloggers to keep the community engaged at all levels for many of their card games.

- Extremely quick turnarounds on errata and FAQs with explicit references to why the changes were made (Destiny. Pretty sure we got one too on our last major errata).

- Special tournaments or contests like the Red Fork Tournament in a Game of Thrones that changed the future release schedule of the game.  I mean we got the wave building contest for Armada but that seems kind of like a one and done at this point.

- STORY and PLOT that is based off of and changes due to player choices and tournament results (L5R). 

 

Really, I don't even specifically want some of these things for Armada, but there has been almost no FFG support for this community which I love other than saying "Hey here's more stuff to buy." 

They gotta do more. They're already losing me to their other products, so I guess they don't mind as long as they get my money, but I'm sure others have fallen off the FFG train completely.

Edited by Eggzavier

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9 minutes ago, Eggzavier said:

As a frequent drafter and signatory of NDAs and corporate policies, I can't think of any that I have ever seen or drafted that would prevent someone from OFFICIALLY saying (because I don't just want some random employee spouting off, I really want to see the appropriate person within FFG officially address our complaints, which have been raised for over a year now):

"Hey we're glad you're excited about the game. We'd love to share the next news release with you guys now but we want to make sure that we have enough content to spread out across the release schedule.  When we get to that point we'll post it straight away. In the mean time, please see the following article written by <insert armada fixture here> on the state of the game."

I was hoping you'd come along and enlighten us as to what the norm was for NDAs.

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6 minutes ago, Megatronrex said:

I was hoping you'd come along and enlighten us as to what the norm was for NDAs.

I mean, NDAs and corporate policies vary widely.

There's always going to be stuff that they're not allowed to share - and lets be clear here, we don't just want a random employee sharing with us info about armada, the release schedule, the future of the game, or any directions the company is planning on taking the game, if any.

But as a matter of corporate policy it doesn't make any sense that the powers that be at FFG can't put together an official statement that addresses our concerns as part of or on behalf of the Armada team or whatever. 

I can't think of anything sensitive that could be implicated by such a statement that they literally cannot make the statement at all.  Such a blanket provision would be far outside the norm in my experience.

And really, the info that is shared by the designers or the people on the twitch service when we watch big tournaments would seem to contradict the idea that there is an NDA that prevents them from sharing any info about the game.  I can't remember who it was buy I think schmitty picked the brain of one of the designers at a major event about their process and the future of the game.

So is there likely an NDA that prevents individual employees from sharing info about the game? Yes.

Does that matter at all for the kind of information we're looking for from FFG? Not really, no.

Edited by Eggzavier

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4 minutes ago, Megatronrex said:

I was hoping you'd come along and enlighten us as to what the norm was for NDAs.

Yet I’ve seen Corporate and Industrial ones that hardcore, as well as military secrets acts.

Just glad my opinion and raised possibilities means nothing to people when it means they don’t get what they want.

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1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

Yet I’ve seen Corporate and Industrial ones that hardcore, as well as military secrets acts.

Just glad my opinion and raised possibilities means nothing to people when it means they don’t get what they want.

We're not exactly dealing with military secrets here. You're opinions (at least in my opinion) and possibilities are always welcome. I'm sorry if you're equating disagreement with them with dismissal of them.

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22 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Yet I’ve seen Corporate and Industrial ones that hardcore, as well as military secrets acts.

Just glad my opinion and raised possibilities means nothing to people when it means they don’t get what they want.

I also know for a fact that there are some very 'hardcore' non disclosure provisions in corporate contracts that are big money. 

And yes, military secrets acts are usually hardcore.

But if your opinion and raised possibility is that there is a NDA or contractual provision between FFG and Disney that literally prevents FFG or a member of the design team from writing an article about the fact that there has been a slight delay in the production schedule or creating a forum post about it, when there clearly isn't one in place preventing their SM team from doing so, or doing any of the other things I mentioned above, that would seem very strange to me and outside the norm of what I would expect for a "small board game company" like FFG.  

As for discounting your opinions and raised possibilities, that seems a bit harsh.  I entertained the possibility, but disagree with it.  Its not that its because I, or we, am not getting what I want.  Its more because, based on my personal experiences, I don't think its a particularly likely reason for why FFG isn't being communicative with the community.

Again, this isn't about a missed release schedule or a lack of new waves. Personally I think the game itself is in a really good design space with content.

This is about respect and passion for the game.

I sent an email to FFG about these issues in January, I was told that it had been forwarded to the appropriate people by a customer service rep. 

No response whatsoever. No change in how they approached Armada or community relations.  And we know that they can, based on what we see content wise from their other IPs or what they have done in the past for Armada, Destiny, and XWing.  I don't think it's a Star Wars IP by Disney wide issue, but rather an FFG issue.

We are frustrated, to say the least.

Edited by Eggzavier

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Here's why I'm feeling dismissed

 

I was mostly talking about two separate processes,.

The first is an NDA policy.  Which, of course, has been covered.  Very well.  But people are only reading that, and assuming because NDA's don't cover that far, we're not covered...  And everything should be hunky-dory.

But we're not, and this is the dismissed part.

The second part is a corporate communications policy or strategy.

 

Especially in regards to personal forums and social networking. 

I mean, I can say right now, that the company I work for, just grocery restocking/packing, states as part of their corporate policy that I cannot make any representations on the efficacy of the company, positive or negative, without prior authorisation from HR or Communications.

And to further that - there is a standing policy that only the Communications department is authorised to make statements, official or not.

Mentioning their name directly is enough to subject me to disciplinary action, including termination (since I have a 5 month probationary period)

 

We have been told that in the past, the corporate communications policy for FFG, was that the Forums were for community chats, they were not for the company to engage officially with the community at large, outside of some specific means.  Engagement with the community was to be leveraged through social networking and the statements of the communications department via the Website Articles.

Furthermore, when you look into FFG's business practices and reputation (via such things as Glassdoor), you can readily see a corporate environment that is very loose on the individual level, but very regimented in hirarchy, and if you step outside of your given bounds, you can be subject to disciplinary action.  

The people who have information may not be allowed to disseminate it.  

The people who are allowed to disseminate information have not been given it.

The people who authorise it aren't "in the loop" to know, because there's no information flow...

 

One could argue its a terrible state to actually be in.  But that is always how FFG has operated in their corporate communications strategy - and thus, I doubt management has any real drive to change their policies.

So, there's no magic response.  And demanding a magic response - which a lot of people ARE demanding - is unfortunate, unneccessary, and negative, because you're setting your own expectations up to fail, and then shouting loudly when they fail.

I mean, look at how many people want Development Blogs and Weekly Updates and that.  Sure, that'd be fantastic, but its also unreasonable.  Given, what I assume, is their Corporate communications strategy and framework.

 

Y'know, maybe it'll update.  Maybe it won't.  Most likely, it won't...  Because updating the framework in general is going to open a lot of floodgates across their entire gaming world, rather than just in Armada...  

 

We are dealing with "Business as Usual" here for FFG.

There is no need for them to change an over-arching policy for a mere month or two delay on their part.

 

 

...  My Article Prediction Thread is over a Year Old, now.

I suggest people go back to August last year and see the circumstances that brought it to fruition in the first place...  We had, effectively, 3 releases that year.  Because the Corellian Conflict was thrown into the mix.

They were basically as disastrous as they were now, only without a month or so delay due to unforseen circumstances.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

But that is always how FFG has operated in their corporate communications strategy - and thus, I doubt management has any real drive to change their policies.

So, there's no magic response.  And demanding a magic response - which a lot of people ARE demanding - is unfortunate, unneccessary, and negative, because you're setting your own expectations up to fail, and then shouting loudly when they fail.

We are dealing with "Business as Usual" here for FFG.

There is no need for them to change an over-arching policy for a mere month or two delay on their part.

I see where the disconnect is now.  We understand what the SOP is for FFG communications, we're simply saying that it is now unacceptable to us as customers.

I want to receive official FFG communications from the official FFG communications department officially informing me, after they have gone through all of the official procedures and approvals, of news and content that interests me about the game. The only official communications we have received from FFG recently would paint the picture that we are going to get "something big" and that Armada Wave 7 is due out in Q4 2017 and we should preorder it now.  We now know from unofficial communications that at least one of those official communications is inaccurate.

 

If whoever 'they' are look and see that the community is frustrated and upset by their "Business as Usual" then they should want to change it. 

We don't want a magic response. We are, in effect, requesting that FFG change their business as usual for the health of the game and the health of this community. 

We want to give management a real drive to change their policies, at least in regards to how they treat armada. 

And really we're not asking for much of a change. I'm not asking for a weekly devlog. You're right, that's a bit much.

What I and others are asking for is:

1) More engagement with the community on the level enjoyed by other FFG titles,

2) Timely official rules errata/interpretations/clarifications that actually resolve the questions being asked,

3) More transparency in regards to the release of product that they want me to preorder. If I pay hundreds of dollers for a wave and expect to and have been told that I'll have it "Q4 2017" I would like to know that I won't actually have it until, at the earliest, Q1 of 2018. And I would like to know that at an appropriate time after FFG knows it, not when an enterprising member of the community decides they've had enough and comes straight out and asks them on twitter what is going on.

 

These are not huge goals. If you don't want these things, or if you're perfectly fine with the way things are, that's fine. Nobody is asking you to sign a petition or anything.

Yet.

Edited by Eggzavier

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Your points are valid, well thought out, and appreciated (at least I appreciate them.)  The main problem I have is that I’m not hearing an alternative approach, just a case that everything is acceptable as it is. We don’t know, and probably never will know, what FFG’s internal policies are.  The only three options I’ve heard here are 1. acceptance 2. walk away from FFG (I’ll never do that) or 3. use your voice and let them figure out what to do.  It might take patience. Maybe nothing happens; I won’t stop loving  and buying FFG products. But if FFG feels our dissatisfaction enough to care, it’s on them to do something about it. And we’re each entitled to decide if we’re satisfied. Also, it’s not really about wave 7. It’s about the overall lack of support and actual product for this game.

Edited by The Jabbawookie
Sniped by Eggzavier

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Perhaps the main problem I have here is too much faith in the system.

 

The difference between:

"We've made our letters and statements, submitted them, and now we have to wait and see what happens".

versus

"We're going to be out there protesting every day until change happens."

 

 

Because I'm a member of that first group.  I reason that, in most cases, a well reasoned, thought out and, ultimately, corporate friendly approach gets the most traction in these sorts of things.  Because ultimately, we're subject to corporate whims and hierarchies.

I've submitted one, as other people have submitted their own communications through the official channels.  

We've also heard through the Twitter that information is coming.  So of course, I'm sitting down and waiting for it.

 

 

What we should be wanting to avoid is the threads that resemble overturned cars and people with placquards making demands before they will disperse.

The Grassroots demonstration approach is only going to work when you take it to the extreme.

Like most things.

 

Edited by Drasnighta

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7 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Perhaps the main problem I have here is too much faith in the system.

 

The difference between:

"We've made our letters and statements, submitted them, and now we have to wait and see what happens".

versus

"We're going to be out there protesting every day until change happens."

Well, I at least did the first one back in January.

And now, nearly a year later with not even a response from FFG other than a CS Rep who forwarded the message on to the appropriate people, I'm about ready to start doing the second.

I am going to wait for the full year to pass before I decide what to do next. I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt, but hey a year is quite a bit of time.

I know I'm not entitled to anything. I just want FFG to know that they have a great game here and a great community and if they want to keep them, here are some suggestions.

Its up to them if they want to implement them.

Edited by Eggzavier

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11 minutes ago, Eggzavier said:

I see where the disconnect is now.  We understand what the SOP is for FFG communications, we're simply saying that it is now unacceptable to us as customers.

I want to receive official FFG communications from the official FFG communications department officially informing me, after they have gone through all of the official procedures and approvals, of news and content that interests me about the game. The only official communications we have received from FFG recently would paint the picture that we are going to get "something big" and that Armada Wave 7 is due out in Q4 2017 and we should preorder it now.  We now know from unofficial communications that at least one of those official communications is inaccurate.

 

If whoever 'they' are look and see that the community is frustrated and upset by their "Business as Usual" then they should want to change it. 

We don't want a magic response. We are, in effect, requesting that FFG change their business as usual for the health of the game and the health of this community. 

We want to give management a real drive to change their policies, at least in regards to how they treat armada. 

And really we're not asking for much of a change. I'm not asking for a weekly devlog. You're right, that's a bit much.

What I and others are asking for is:

1) More engagement with the community on the level enjoyed by other FFG titles,

2) Timely official rules errata/interpretations/clarifications that actually resolve the questions being asked,

3) More transparency in regards to the release of product that they want me to preorder. If I pay hundreds of dollers for a wave and expect to and have been told that I'll have it "Q4 2017" I would like to know that I won't actually have it until, at the earliest, Q1 of 2018. And I would like to know that at an appropriate time after FFG knows it, not when an enterprising member of the community decides they've had enough and comes straight out and asks them on twitter what is going on.

 

These are not huge goals. If you don't want these things, or if you're perfectly fine with the way things are, that's fine. Nobody is asking you to sign a petition or anything.

Yet.

This sums up how I feel exactly, but you articulated it better than I ever could. 

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On 11/17/2017 at 10:38 PM, FoaS said:

Alright, I'm gonna pull the trigger - I wanted to wait until Monday, but what the ****:

@ffgjosh - hey man.

I'm pretty sure you're a forum admin, and this isn't really your wheelhouse, but I feel like out of the FFG staff, you're the one that I see referenced most often, so I'm willing to take a chance.

I don't expect you to read this entire thread, and really, I wouldn't want you to - it's gotten a little undignified here and there. But still - I draw your attention here because a fairly vocal group in the community, myself included, have gotten discouraged with what feels like Armada falling by the wayside. There have been a number of threads about it recently, and a few folks on reddit and twitter have also spoken up. We understand that NDAs and company policy definitely probably prohibits you revealing anything upcoming. Fair. I know how it goes.

That being said, I think the community at large would do well to know that Armada is still on FFG's mind and that it hasn't been put on the back burner. Obviously, we're getting a wave soon, but we're not exactly inspired by the way that it's been handled. Don't get me wrong, we're looking forward to the wave itself, but we found out that it was delayed because of a response on twitter. Production flukes happen - we get that. I'd be lying if I said I was completely okay with it, but it happens. But it's not just this wave being delayed. We've been going on a pretty long stretch of waiting for FAQs and there are repeated debates in the rules forum that leave us wondering if FFG will ever address them, and regionals start really soon - folks are just avoiding playing certain upgrades because they can't be certain of how a TO will handle any given ambiguity. There are discussions in the rules forums that have gone in such circles because it's something that only FFG can resolve. Fortunately for thrawn, the guy who made the card stepped in and was able to clarify it - instead of FFG. Additionally, earlier in this thread I referenced that Armada has gotten 7 articles this entire year (excluding rule clarification announcements and championship announcements). I don't think that anyone is expecting a weekly article (hyperbole, there), but we'd like to have some attention, too, you know?

Like I said: You probably can't talk with any kind of certainty, because that'd be an official statement and that's walking onto a bed of nails, but if there's any way you folks can take some time and consider saying something that might assuage some of our concerns beyond "Soon™" I think it would go a long way for us here in the community. We're really looking forward to more Armada, and what I hope is a more engaged FFG here. I swear I'm not tooting my own horn here, but there are some pretty cool ideas to consider in that other thread (https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/263138-stay-on-target-brainstorm-on-how-ffg-can-collaborate-with-the-community/) that I think FFG may want to consider - and honestly, if there's anything we can help with - guest articles, or anything like that, you'll have folks lining up left and right to help out.

I hope my 10:30pm posting hasn't gotten too rambly for you, and I hope you're taking this with the intent that I'm writing it: optimistic concern and worry. We love the game. It's my favorite tabletop game that I've ever played, and I'd hate to see it neglected.

 

 

 

Dangit... The temptation to say "Help me Obi-wan Kenobi" is just too strong.

 

@FFG Michael Gernes

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I want things to be better too.

But I don't think forum dumpster-fire topics are the answer.

And we've been skirting that edge.

 

At the very least, we're already showing a VERY negative front to people who are coming here for the first time...

 

Why should they bother to join our community, when forefront on our minds is how poor off we are?

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