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InquisitorM

Spoiler: Censure. Worst card so far?

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12 minutes ago, XCoconutMonkey06X said:

You will. It is the nature of competitive card games. If X card doesn't make my life easier or if it makes other people's decks work better, then it's CRAP! lol

 

8 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

Even months before the game came out people were negative towards possible things. The very possibility of Spider being around led to constant threads and posts.

Forums are places where people go to shout so we have to learn to live with it. It happens in other card games, board games, miniature games, and pretty much everything else.

Well, I guess I'm kind of naive with my "it's just a game" attitude. :(

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Just now, Yakamo no Oni said:

 

Well, I guess I'm kind of naive with my "it's just a game" attitude. :(

There are a lot of people that play with that attitude as well :) 

But like others have said, the very nature of a competitive activity will mean that tempers get flared n' stuff. People like to win. This game can exacerbate that specifically because a few things like Clan Loyalty - which kind of makes people want to stick with a clan, no matter what, even if they get dealt a "bad hand" - and the fact that players winning can actually affect things like card options.

I think the passion and discussions and stuff are good for the game, but some people can get carried away. Most popular competitive games suffer from this, unfortunately. I actually know quite a few players that avoid all mainstream competitive games for these reasons. They just don't like confrontation with their gaming.

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1 hour ago, Yakamo no Oni said:

This is my first LCG since LotR and that was cooperative. So I am kind of worried if we'll continue to see similar heated discussions with every cycle and deluxe expansion coming in the next years. It seems to me that many players don't want to adjust to new cards and strategies, but in fact outright fear or hate when that happens. The very first expansion hasn't even hit the shelves yet (unless you live in Australia) and there's already so much negativity just because one upcoming card threatens to change the infantile status quo.

This happens almost constantly in every LCG I've played.  Mostly due to the usually 1 a month release cycle there is just this constant outrage that something is gonna break the game.  Then people learn how to play with the new thing and how to play against it and the discussion disappears.  Then the cycle start again and again and again.  LCG's constantly shake up the status quo by design.  You want that otherwise people will get bored and complacent with the game.  That's primarily why I think the role selection is a really good thing for this game long term.  Keeps playstyles and deck builds a bit more fluid.

ADD:  Even in LOTR this happened.  Just look backwards in time to the outrage people had when the Outlands deck developed or when Dwarves got too much support.  Also most of the vitriol is directed at what people consider unfair encounter cards.  At one point there was a lot of discussion about there being too much serge in the game for example.  In a co op of course people can just say I'm not playing with these few OP cards or I'm not playing this impossibly hard scenario again.

Edited by phillos

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Forgot to mention two things this morning: One, I wouldn't have minded or been surprised if it required you to discard the favor entirely, since it costs 0 otherwise. Second, finally a good use for my Keeper initiates! Might consider running them now. I have some Masahiros I'd like to show the door to XD

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I love this card!  This is exactly what the game needed.  It felt so odd that Scorpion and Crane had event cancels but there was no neutral access.  imo this should have been in core, because sadly it will rotate out at some point...

3 hours ago, Yakamo no Oni said:

This is my first LCG since LotR and that was cooperative. So I am kind of worried if we'll continue to see similar heated discussions with every cycle and deluxe expansion coming in the next years. It seems to me that many players don't want to adjust to new cards and strategies, but in fact outright fear or hate when that happens. The very first expansion hasn't even hit the shelves yet (unless you live in Australia) and there's already so much negativity just because one upcoming card threatens to change the infantile status quo.

Yes and no.  There will surely be reactionary threads but you will see more right now where nearly every revealed card is a massive change for the game, being that the game currently comprises only the core set.  As more cards come out the bickering will lessen, even though it will not go away (and why should it?  Don't we all come here to bicker a bit anyway?)

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5 hours ago, Koriume said:

I am not happy with this card. 

It is open to all clans, right. It allows you to cancel events out of crane or scorpion. Right. But consider the fact that it reinforces the denial on those clans. With this card in the pool, everytime we face those two clans, we will have to expect a cancellation is in their hands.

That is awful. Its mere presence in the pool breaks apart some sinergies that were giving some light to the darkened path of crab and unicorn, like the charge/FGG combo. Anyway, any sinergy that is elaborated and more or less expensive, will be too dangerous due to this card (and the other two). Not only that it will be so hard to play them against Crane or Scorpion. Also, now we have to add Phoenix to the list of clans that will probably disable a sequence in which you have invested a lot. I mean, any current or future sequence.

It also enhances the position of the player in current advantage, favoring somehow, even when slightly, the feared snowball effect.

The good point is, if you are going to include cancellation in the card pool, at least give it to every clan. Not free, not unconditional, but available at least.

1) Cancellation is available for every clan now, so for scorpion / crane things don't change too much since they need other cards as well in the deck to function. Cramming cancellation effects endlessly will bring them nowhere

2) Cancellations effects are at the base of any LCG. Counter-spell in MtG was a cornerstone card that existed since the beginning and defined the meta. This is awful? Your combo does not work anymore? No it stoll does, but now it has a chance to  be countered, it bring back and forth exchanges and a way for people to defend themselves and not feel like they are clubbed to death without any possibility of reaction. You want to secure your combo? Why not use I don;t know, cards like Censure? So you will be able to cancel cancellation effects?

3) It does not make any snowball effect since anyone can include this in a deck, and the imperial favor changes hand. Because of how the game works, you could be in a strong position, see all your characters discarded as no more fate was on them and see your opponent outnumber you on the next turn. The game actually snowballs way less than Old5R

 

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3 minutes ago, Hellvlad said:

You want to secure your combo? Why not use I don;t know, cards like Censure? So you will be able to cancel cancellation effects?

Oh yeah, I remember that from MtG.

- I counter your spell.

- Okay, I counter your counter spell.

- In that case, I powerdrain your counter to counter my counter spell.

:lol:

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heh, permission decks.

people getting bent out of shape over previews. nothing changes. wait until you play the **** game with all these things. you really think too much of yourself if you imagine you know how everything will turn out right now.

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The card is fine. It's just as restrictive as Forged Edict and Voice of Honor, perhaps more restrictive, and gives every faction the ability to cancel effects. This card is needed. If Scorpion and Crane want to take 3 copies of this card, that's fine by me, just means they are taking 3 less of other cards that ruin my day. At least I know if I hold onto the Imperial Favor they can't use this card.

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Nice, even neutrals get better cards than the Unicorn.:lol:

I like that there is a neutral cancel card. As long as cancels don't become too numerous, it's good. Curious that it doesn't require to drop the Imperial Favor to use it, tough. It does help you to use it to cancel something and then be able to play Ride Them Down, I guess.

3 hours ago, Iuchi Toshimo said:

but our 2-costers are very good.

Design mistake that will be fixed in future cycles. :D

 

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Just now, Yakamo no Oni said:

Well, you could always run with 3x Spyglass, 3x Ride them Down and 34 neutral cards. Might be worth a try.

I do love making casual decks for fun (like conflict deck being 28 zero cost + 9 one cost + 3 three cost, 9 Unicorn, 6 Lion) so what you say is not far fetched...^_^

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I'm not a fan of it being neutral, because blanket event cancel feels like something that goes in particular factions (Crane and Scorpion).  I could see other clans getting more limited cancel (e.g. Unicorn canceling an event or ability targeting a cavalry person, or Dragon canceling attachment destruction).  It feels like this card should've required discarding the favor.  I don't think it will break the game, but it's not a good precedent.  I don't want to see tons of counterspells in the game, as most players don't find them fun.

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11 minutes ago, FiddlerJones said:

I don't want to see tons of counterspells in the game, as most players don't find them fun.

Really? I always felt that not being able to do anything while my opponent's cards wreak havoc on me was by far more frustrating than running into some sort of cancellation effect every now and then.

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13 minutes ago, FiddlerJones said:

It feels like this card should've required discarding the favor.  I don't think it will break the game, but it's not a good precedent.  I don't want to see tons of counterspells in the game, as most players don't find them fun.

This.  Discarding the favour would have made it a little easier to deal with and play around.  I don't mind the card, but I think I would have preferred discarding the favour to get the effect, then you could bait it out with a different event.  I like the ability to play around my opponent's cards; Forged Edict is a perfect example, I'm constantly watching how many non-dishonored courtiers a Scorp player has.

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15 minutes ago, FiddlerJones said:

I'm not a fan of it being neutral, because blanket event cancel feels like something that goes in particular factions (Crane and Scorpion).  I could see other clans getting more limited cancel (e.g. Unicorn canceling an event or ability targeting a cavalry person, or Dragon canceling attachment destruction).  It feels like this card should've required discarding the favor.  I don't think it will break the game, but it's not a good precedent.  I don't want to see tons of counterspells in the game, as most players don't find them fun.

I wouldn't worry too much, my understanding is the core set and Imperial cycle were more or less designed as a whole. Censure really feels like it's intended to fill out the "set" of neutral staples, such as Banzai!, Rout, Outwit, etc. Maybe they'll design some extra cancel/protection abilities that are limited in the way you describe (maybe put the abilities on characters/attachments instead of as event cards), but I'd bet we won't see much in the way of blanket cancels beyond the this and the two from the core set. 

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4 minutes ago, Casanunda said:

This.  Discarding the favour would have made it a little easier to deal with and play around.  I don't mind the card, but I think I would have preferred discarding the favour to get the effect, then you could bait it out with a different event.  I like the ability to play around my opponent's cards; Forged Edict is a perfect example, I'm constantly watching how many non-dishonored courtiers a Scorp player has.

You still can bait it out. I mean, what's the probality that your opponent has two copies of Censure in his hand? 1:38 or something like that?

Edited by Yakamo no Oni

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8 minutes ago, Yakamo no Oni said:

You still can bait it out. I mean, what's the probality that your opponent has two copies of Censure in his hand? 1:38 or something like that?

Never tell me the odds.

Not zero, is the point.  The odds would depend upon how late in the game we are.  4th round when the game is coming to an end the odds are getting pretty good.

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I would mention that this IS more restrictive than Forged Edict and Voice of Honor. Forged Edict you just have to have a non dishonored courtier, which scorpion will have plenty of. Voice of Honor needs you to have more honored characters which hey, guess what, Crane has plenty of ways to do.  Also, Crane has Above Question and Guest of Honor, so yeah I think I can stop this argument here.

Imperial Favor can change each round or no one can own throughout the game if you tie each round. So the card could be dead for the whole game. I'm sorry Scorpion and Crane aren't the special snowflakes you thought they were, they are still better canceling effects than anyone else.

Also remember this will be gone at the beginning of year 3. So this too shall pass while Forged Edict and Voice of Honor (and Guest of Honor and Above Question) will always be available.

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As the card pool gets deeper, and we become less reliant on events to do the heavy lifting, it's this narrow type of counter that is fine.  Crane and Scorpion already have counters that are better as they can generally meet the requirements to play them easier than attempting to gain the favor from someone else that is naturally contesting it.

It can't be played on the first turn, unless we see a card that can just take the favor.  In most games aggro decks tend to rely on temporary boost, in this case events.  Censure being flat out unplayable on the first turn does nothing to stop a deck with that kind of strategy so that's a good thing, IMO.  It looks more like a card designed to protect a strong combo in the mid to late game after you've had a chance to win the favor.

I think this should break up the meta game a little bit as clans are no longer forced to try and stretch their decks to meet the requirements of running Crane or Scorpion if they do want to run event counters.  However, the downside is that you could potentially see a 9 counter deck or an increase in the decks that can run up to 6 counters if they are able to meet those requirements of Crane or Scorpion.

Ultimately I think it's going to come down to how relevant events will be as the card pool increases.  Since events are pretty strong out of the core and the card pool isn't getting that deep with just the 6 packs, I can understand some of the concern over Censure, however, I think the design of the card doesn't reward you for running 3 copies, so I'm not expecting this one to have too great an impact.  If anything I think it's more geared at removing NPE because there was nothing worse than working through a sequence to set up a big play with an event and then have it all fall apart with a cancellation effect.  Spending 3 fate with Cavalry Reserves to watch it get cancelled and have the game slip away from you is a real bummer, especially when splashing Crane or Scorpion for counters was not reliable.  Now you can try to control the favor and give yourself some protection to play that big bomb.

I'm a fan.

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