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Bayushi Tsubaki

Dishonor is not inherently NPE - The sour grapes need to stop

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I had issues with dishonor as much as with honor back in the CCG (where money made a difference in which cards you could had). Being Unicorn, didn't help that I was supposed to be weak to Scorpion and Crane. Right? That said, a Crane that only had to sit on his hands while his deck auto-obliterated my Unicorns was not fun at all. Scorpion was ugly back when 'First turn. Breach of Etiquette. You are out of the game unless you happen to get some early Sanetama or Katta. Maybe Lies, Lies, Lies...?' and while things improved over time, the experience was still painful.

I don't mind some unconditional cards here and there. But I do prefer to be more interaction for every victory condition. And certainly, I don't want to have Clans that autowreck others because of style. Not sure how offtopic I have gone but while I don't expect to "like" how some decks achieve their victory condition, I'd love to be able to have some fun while losing (fun had while playing against Faceless Ninja with Unicorn == 0.0000000000000000000000000000%).

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53 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:

How many of those are there? Honored Blade (Lion splashable), Ikoma Prodigy (Lion exclusive), Meddling Mediator (Phoenix exclusive), and the upcoming Way of the Chrysanthemum (neutral). That's... a disappointing list, in my humblest of opinions.

Brash Samurai, Savy Politician plus honor effect, Kakita Asami, Togashi Initiate, Venerable Historian+having more honor, Honored General, Asako Diplomat, Way of the Crane, Blackmail Artist, Court Games, Yurt, Guard Duty and Kitsu Spiritcaller with Honored General are missing. Voice of Honor can also work, if you have more honored characters.

46 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Sorry but #lowbid isn't the catch all solution you're making it out to be as I suspected you would.

In reality when you low bid vs Scorpion they overwhelm you with cards and force your honor down anyways.  Giving them another card to close the gap for those final points of honor just makes it worse.

Maybe next year when there are more cards and playstyles are more varied.  For now I think we dodged a bullet and I'm glad that the friends I've dragged into this game will not have to sit across from a Scorpion armed with BC right out of the gate.

I don't think that #lowbid is the be all end all solution. I played a lot of Scorpion in the past and while giving too much free card advantage to Scorpion is a sure way to lose against them tempo wise, you can counteract the lower bid by either getting card advantage through other means, or overwhelm Scorpion with extremly efficient dynasty cards (Lion). Especially Yoshi seems like being able to outvalue everything that Scorpion can gain through their bidding game.

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8 minutes ago, Ignithas said:

Brash Samurai, Savy Politician plus honor effect, Kakita Asami, Togashi Initiate, Venerable Historian+having more honor, Honored General, Asako Diplomat, Way of the Crane, Blackmail Artist, Court Games, Yurt, Guard Duty and Kitsu Spiritcaller with Honored General are missing. Voice of Honor can also work, if you have more honored characters.

Ah, see, I was only counting cards that expressly give you honor.  compared to Backhand which very specifically is an unconditional honor loss. Honored characters can become dishonored, and vice versa, so I had purposely omitted them. Otherwise, every single character is a... Schrödinger Honor. It might get you one, it might lose you one, don't know 'till it's dead.

Bonus points for Yurt, I missed that one.

Edited by twinstarbmc

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I respect the movement the winning scorpion players have developed, as it was their earned choice. I also like the fact that these things happen in a game, showing the force and the commitment of the community.

 

But I dont share the hate for the card, or the dishonor mechanic. I find that, at the moment, you probably wont be dishonored if you don´t run the risk yourself. That is farther from NPE than is mirumoto fury or court games, not to talk about Shameful display. The problem with dishonor is that it makes you pay for drawing 5 cards and playing 2 assasinations. So what? It makes the assasination a risk and a choice, what is good for the game, imho. At the moment, it is autoinclude in every single deck. 

 

I think of my honor points as if they were cards. 1 point= 1 card. I do this based on the draw mechanic (and the Blackmailed compliment seems to back this assumption, btw). Then, talking about assasination: should I use 1 card and discard 3 cards to kill a 2 cost character? if the answer is yes, I will take assasination inside my deck. If not, then I will search for another card. Assasination has a great effect, but it comes with a high cost.  I personally like the subtle interaction among honor, card draw, and the earth, air and fire rings.  To me it is quite a good feature of the game. Imho dishonor techniques, at the moment, enhance this feature.

 

So I dont think they are NPE, for now.

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12 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:

Ah, see, I was only counting cards that expressly give you honor.  compared to Backhand which very specifically is an unconditional honor loss. Honored characters can become dishonored, and vice versa, so I had purposely omitted them. Otherwise, every single character is a... Schrödinger Honor. It might get you one, it might lose you one, don't know 'till it's dead.

Bonus points for Yurt, I missed that one.

The difference between "unconditional honor loss/gain" and "conditional honor loss/gain" is that there are a lot of situations, where the conditional one is delayed by one turn. So if you play your Way of the Scorpion, Honored General etc. one turn before you lose/win by honor/dishonor, it is pretty much the same (except against Soshi Illusionist).

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1 hour ago, Silverfox13 said:

Way of the Chrysanthemum is going to affect the environment way more than Backhanded Compliment

Way of doesn't double the honor loss for your opponent, and it can be played around by bidding lower or stealing your opponents Fate.

I think most people are complaining about Backhanded Compliment because it can't be played around :S

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1 hour ago, Silverfox13 said:

Way of the Chrysanthemum is going to affect the environment way more than Backhanded Compliment

Not really.  Because someone passing the dynasty phase with two fate open is a clear signal that they could have WotCh.  BC being free......you never know when your opponent has it.

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6 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Not really.  Because someone passing the dynasty phase with two fate open is a clear signal that they could have WotCh.  BC being free......you never know when your opponent has it.

Why wouldn't I have 1-3 fate open after the dynasty  phase round 2, onward?

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2 hours ago, Shu2jack said:

Why wouldn't I have 1-3 fate open after the dynasty  phase round 2, onward?

Nothing stopping you from doing that....just wouldn't expect to get a high bid from your opponent unless they were comfortable with you gaining a bunch of honor.  It's not something that is entirely in your control.  

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On 11/6/2017 at 8:51 AM, Ishi Tonu said:

BC does not do this.  It has no restrictions, no cost, and no opportunity for your opponent to respond.

Most cards have no restrictions, or their restrictions are easily met (Phoenix card wants a shugenja, for instance).
This card does have a cost - it gives your opponent a resource. That's not nothing. "Card draw wins games" is a saying as old as card games, after all.
Most cards offer no immediate opportunity for your opponent to respond, and the cards that do have to be *really* good in order to get included in decks. When I bow you, you're bowed. Maybe you have a way to undo it, but you certainly don't have an "out" during the playing of the Mirumoto's Fury that did it.

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There's plenty of control/interaction which precipitates the situation where BC could have a meaningful impact. You cannot say chrysanthemum has counter play via honor bidding etc. but then say BC does not. 

You can't stop the action of buying a character either, or flipping a holding (with the current cards). Someone should tell the designers those elements are 'npe'.

If a card becomes detrimental to the game it's up to FFG to write some errata or ban it. The choice SHOULD have been for Scorpion to use BC and prove how stupid of a card it is. But instead it's not available so we won't know until eventually Scorpion is Keeper.

Oh but the card pool will be different then so all of this is irrelevant either way... Kind of like it will be by the end of December.

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1 minute ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

Most cards have no restrictions, or their restrictions are easily met (Phoenix card wants a shugenja, for instance).
This card does have a cost - it gives your opponent a resource. That's not nothing. "Card draw wins games" is a saying as old as card games, after all.
Most cards offer no immediate opportunity for your opponent to respond, and the cards that do have to be *really* good in order to get included in decks. When I bow you, you're bowed. Maybe you have a way to undo it, but you certainly don't have an "out" during the playing of the Mirumoto's Fury that did it.

Except bowing a character is not a win condition and you're comparing the back and forth of a conflict where two people are assessing each other's fate total to get a sense of what could come.

BC has no fate cost and can be played in any action window which gives someone no idea it's coming Until it's too late.  The only defense right now, as there is no generic honor gain cards that opperate in any action window for 0 fate the way that BC do, is to overcompensate vs anyone with a Keeper role that you suspect would be running BC and that will likely put you in a bad position too as you end up at a card disadvantage.

A lose / lose proposition is blatant NPE.  Scorpion would likely have been able to maximize BC in a way that other clans cannot at this point in the game as there is little defense against it. 

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1 minute ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Except bowing a character is not a win condition and you're comparing the back and forth of a conflict where two people are assessing each other's fate total to get a sense of what could come.

BC has no fate cost and can be played in any action window which gives someone no idea it's coming Until it's too late.  The only defense right now, as there is no generic honor gain cards that opperate in any action window for 0 fate the way that BC do, is to overcompensate vs anyone with a Keeper role that you suspect would be running BC and that will likely put you in a bad position too as you end up at a card disadvantage.

A lose / lose proposition is blatant NPE.  Scorpion would likely have been able to maximize BC in a way that other clans cannot at this point in the game as there is little defense against it. 

Bowing a character is a step taken towards a conflict victory. Causing an honor loss is a step taken towards a dishonor victory. They're much more comparable than you're letting on.

It's also one of the only ways in the entire game to cause a reliable honor loss (the other being Contingency Plan for a zero bid, which is extreeemely expensive as it costs you your opportunity for a bid draw that turn). Yes, there seems to be a lack of honor gain cards in the pool right now, but I'd be shocked if that doesn't change very quickly with soon-to-come previews.

If a lose/lose proposition is blatant NPE, then a "you just lose, no choice" should be even worse, right? Most cards don't give you a choice, they just do a harmful thing to you - it's called "playing the game." (Also, by that argument, Watch Commander should be the problem, yet no one is making public outcries about how NPE that card is...)
Speaking of Crab cards, why is BC the worst in Scorpion? Crab has the majority of honor loss actions readily available, while Scorpion is better at causing the dishonored status. Clearly BC out of Crab is the thing to worry about, no?

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38 minutes ago, Tebbo said:

The choice SHOULD have been for Scorpion to use BC and prove how stupid of a card it is. But instead it's not available so we won't know until eventually Scorpion is Keeper.

Build a Scorpion Keeper deck, include BC, go to your local store and play a couple of dozen games. Then you'll know. Just because Scorpion can't use BC in official tournaments and events, doesn't mean we can't use casual games to find out whether denying this card for a year was justified or unsubstantiated fear. Actually, I'm pretty sure we'll get reports of casual games with Scorpion Seeker dekcs + BC and whether or not playing against them was truly NPE as soon as the card's been released.

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12 minutes ago, Joe From Cincinnati said:

So Scorpion gets a forced dishonor event and Crab is stuck with Levy?

 

I see how it is...

Quite the opposite, based on the current roles.  Crab can splash Scorpion and use 3 of its 13 Influence to stock three copies of Backhanded Compliment alongside Levy.  Scorpion cannot access BC at all, and has to spend 3 of its 10 Influence for EACH copy of Levy.

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21 minutes ago, Yakamo no Oni said:

Build a Scorpion Keeper deck, include BC, go to your local store and play a couple of dozen games. Then you'll know. Just because Scorpion can't use BC in official tournaments and events, doesn't mean we can't use casual games to find out whether denying this card for a year was justified or unsubstantiated fear. Actually, I'm pretty sure we'll get reports of casual games with Scorpion Seeker dekcs + BC and whether or not playing against them was truly NPE as soon as the card's been released.

That's a pretty bad way to test.

As an individual I don't have a lot of sway over the development of the game. Which was my point when I said it's up to FFG to ban or errata. If someone wanted to discourage this sort of card, then you need to prove it sucks for the game so the developers can see via the recorded and monitored competitive environment that it is hurting the game. I see a missed opportunity to make that case. We could have had a better game sooner if it's such an issue.

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19 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Not really.  Because someone passing the dynasty phase with two fate open is a clear signal that they could have WotCh.  BC being free......you never know when your opponent has it.

You basically just contradicted yourself. You say it won't affect the environment by providing an example of how it affects the environment, and if you think that being forced to choose your bid based off the possibility of one card being in someone's hand isn't meta changing, then I don't what is.

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2 minutes ago, Silverfox13 said:

You basically just contradicted yourself. You say it won't affect the environment by providing an example of how it affects the environment, and if you think that being forced to choose your bid based off the possibility of one card being in someone's hand isn't meta changing, then I don't what is.

Everything has an impact on the environment.  The statement was in response to WotCh being more impactful than BC...........which I do not think it is.

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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On 11/6/2017 at 7:25 PM, agarrett said:

  NPE = Negative Play Experience

  In general, and without taking sides in the current controversy, we tend to call a card/deck an NPE if it relies on shutting down the opponent's ability to play his cards. There's rarely a complete agreement on whether some cards or combos are NPE, for that reason. But I will give an example that's generally accepted, from old5R. In the early days, you couldn't buy a personality if your family honor was less than the personality's honor requirement. There was a card, Breach of Etiquette, that caused the higher honor player to lose 5 honor. Played early in a game, that could shut high honor clans down entirely. It was a bad card (arguably a bad rule to begin with, but a bad card given that rule) with no real counter. The few supporters argued that you could counter it by getting honor gaining cards out there, but...

  Anyway, that's what people mean by NPE.

If we stick to that basically any deck that does something different from " i'm placing charters in play and I'll attack you" is NPE.

Killing/ bowing/ sending home characters is NPE, discading cards from oponent's hand is NPE, milling is NPE, even breaking provinces is NPE.

I can undestand that some bad combos can make the game degenerate and should be taken care of, but the whole interest of L5R to my opinion was the whole uncertainty of the outcome of a conflict due to the varied ways both defender and attacker had to influence the conflict and change everything, flip the tables with sometimes only 1 card. Clans like Scorpion or Phenix have not the raw power to deal with conflicts and are designed to work on other ways. Getting pushed to dishonnor by a Scorpion deck is not the nicest experience, but I don't think it's more NPE than a Lion or Crane deck making a final assault on your stronghold with a total strength of 20+

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