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Bayushi Tsubaki

Dishonor is not inherently NPE - The sour grapes need to stop

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People hate my Phoenix deck because it's designed not to interact with my opponent. That limits a lot of their tech. I also fight for rings rather than provinces with it. It reliably dishonors an opponent by turn 3 or 4 and part of that is conflict card control.

I really don't see scorpion being that much worse if at all. Our local scorpions hate my deck because it removes their ability to play theirs.

NPEs will happen, as they are different things to different people. Backhand wasn't going to be horrible in scorpion, but neither was it going to be particularly good.

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19 minutes ago, Krashwire said:

But there is also no BC in the game right now. We don't know that there wont be any counters to it in the upcoming cycle.

Unless you splash it into another clan's deck that has the right role.

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25 minutes ago, Krashwire said:

Ishi, I agree, there are no cards that gain honor reliably right now. But there is also no BC in the game right now. We don't know that there wont be any counters to it in the upcoming cycle.

As for countering the loss, counter the card. There is such a way in both Scorpion and Crane. You can splash them so any clan does have reliable access to these should they choose to do so. There is also the fact that you must be a particular situation for BC to actually be a game ending threat. If it is not used to close out the game then you have chances to recover, and now with more cards in hand. You also can make play choices to try and prevent your honor from getting to that low a point, particularly if you are playing against a player who you suspect has such a card in their deck. There may be more ways coming in future cards as well.

Some other potential options that come to mind, Levy, sacrifice of an honored character, and the Scorpion stronghold action. Is it a narrow list? Yes. But again we don't have the whole picture of what is coming.

Overall, my point is, we don't have enough information to declare that BC will be the apocalyptic, game-destroying, bogey-man many are making it out to be. Will it be strong? Most likely yes. Will it be 'broken'. We don't know for sure but I am inclines to say no until we have evidence to the contrary.

Will it be an NPE? That's 1 - subjective and 2 - not as relevant as people seem to think it is. Let me explain why I believe in 2 here. First off if you are talking about a non-competitive environment, such as casual  play, it doesn't matter. You simply let your opponent know you are not interested in playing against that card. If you lost to it by surprise once, so what, losing in a casual game didn't cost you anything but time (and let's face it, playing games casually is meant to kill time, not earn you something special). If one is in a competitive environment and they have a problem with this card they probably shouldn't be playing competitively. A cooperative game is probably better for such a player.

Either way the NPE thing is moot. The card isn't being banned. It WILL be played in some Crab and Phoenix decks. Maybe in others as well.

Then what is the point of working out a hypothetical scenario to demonstrate that someone gets 2 opportunities to act between 3 BC of you don't know there will be a card that stops BC?

People's apprehensions are not unfounded and should not be taken so lightly.  You disagree that it creates a NPE, got it.  But calling it moot or dismissing someone's concerns because you don't see it that way seems pretty offensive to me.  

As I have no clan to support I have taken what I feel is a very objective view when considering what cards are strong and what their impact is on the game.  What we do know is that BC works in a way that no other form of dishonor card or mechanic that we've seen so far.  That alone is enough to get me to raise my eyebrow.  Looking at the other cards we do know that are tied to the keeper role it's not difficult to imagine a scenarios where there is one or two clear decks that are dominant above the rest and could cause the game to degenrate to the point where people have very few real options......when the whole appeal of the game to begin with is the amount of options a player has.

When you"have to" play a certain card or style to be competitive that increases the chance of a NPE.  While there will still be choices, lose one way or lose another is not a choice as the end result is the same. That is what BC does.  So unless there is some sort of magic bullet to counter BC then the game is likely better off without Scorpion having it.  The other clans with keeper roles can still plan it, but, not to the same degree of effectiveness as Scorpion. And if they are able to do that it would only further demonstrate how busted the card is, without something to counter it.

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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15 minutes ago, SideshowLucifer said:

The problem with splashing BC is that it limits you to scorpion splash. Not a great choice for a lot of clans currently.

Orly? Phoenix and Crab are Keepers. I can see them splashing Scorp fairly easily, and if they do, this will be in those decks.

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4 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:

Orly? Phoenix and Crab are Keepers. I can see them splashing Scorp fairly easily, and if they do, this will be in those decks.

I can maybe see Phoenix, but no way crab gives up so much for so little return. Those are the 2 clans I'm playing currently.

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10 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Then what is the point of working out a hypothetical scenario to demonstrate that someone gets 2 opportunities to act between 3 BC of you don't know there will be a card that stops BC?

The point was to illustrate that even in the perfect storm of an ideal draw and the player being at 3 honor, they still cant just drop 3 cards on the table and say I win. There are cases, that even in that ideal situation that the opponent might still have options for counter play (slim as they may be) they are there. Typically this perfect storm probably wont happen and it wont be nearly as dire as some seem to think it is.

16 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

People's apprehensions are not unfounded and should not be taken so lightly.  You disagree that it creates a NPE, got it.  But calling it moot or dismissing someone's concerns because you don't see it that way seems pretty offensive to me.  

Allow me to expand and rephrase. The idea that the card may be an NPE is not moot. The idea that the card being removed from the Scorpion pool prevents this potential NPE is patently false. This card will be played. It will be played in Crab and Phoenix. I am certain of that. I'm not saying everyone who plays those clans will run it, but I doubt it will be a rare occurrence by any means.

As far as being "offensive" goes, I gotta say, So what? What does that mean? What does being offended actually do? People need a thicker skin. It's not like I'm throwing around hate speech here or calling people mean names.

Personally I like debate and arguments. As long as people don't get all twisted up with being offended (and its everyone's personal choice to be offended or not) arguing and debating things like this can lead to very new and interesting ideas.

23 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

 What we do know is that BC works in a way that no other form of dishonor card or mechanic that we've seen so far.  That alone is enough to get me to raise my eyebrow.  Looking at the other cards we do know that are tied to the keeper role it's not difficult to imagine a scenarios where there is one or two clear decks that are dominant above the rest and could cause the game to degenrate to the point where people have very few real options......when the whole appeal of the game to begin with is the amount of options a player has.

When you"have to" play a certain card or style to be competitive that increases the chance of a NPE.  While there will still be choices, lose one way or lose another is not a choice as the end result is the same. That is what BC does.  So unless there is some sort of magic bullet to counter BC then the game is likely better off without Scorpion having it.  The other clans with keeper roles can still plan it, but, not to the same degree of effectiveness as Scorpion. And if they are able to do that it would only further demonstrate how busted the card is, without something to counter it.

In general, I agree, and well stated. I do think things like power creep can create some unfortunately situations. We see a course correction for this in Netrunner right now (2.0 starter for any who don't follow the game), and a second edition of Game of Thrones where they felt a full on reboot was needed.

And while I accept your points, I am still personally uncertain that BC is such a card at this point. Time will tell.

Hopefully I have expressed myself well enough here to get across my point and you are not offended, but I have at least given you another point of view to consider even if you do not agree. :)

 

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9 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:

Could you please define NPE for those of us who aren't hip to the lingo?

  NPE = Negative Play Experience

  In general, and without taking sides in the current controversy, we tend to call a card/deck an NPE if it relies on shutting down the opponent's ability to play his cards. There's rarely a complete agreement on whether some cards or combos are NPE, for that reason. But I will give an example that's generally accepted, from old5R. In the early days, you couldn't buy a personality if your family honor was less than the personality's honor requirement. There was a card, Breach of Etiquette, that caused the higher honor player to lose 5 honor. Played early in a game, that could shut high honor clans down entirely. It was a bad card (arguably a bad rule to begin with, but a bad card given that rule) with no real counter. The few supporters argued that you could counter it by getting honor gaining cards out there, but...

  Anyway, that's what people mean by NPE.

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4 minutes ago, Barbacuo said:

You have to spend three cards to make your opponent lose three honor (and draw three cards) while you can win two honor just by winning one fire conflict.

People is eager to spend three honor jus to kill a two-cost character, but if his opponent spends three cards for that result, it's NPE.

Winning a Fire conflict is, or rather could be, a bit more complicated than playing a few cards. I believe that's what people tend to mean when they say "interactive". In the absence of a card that says, unconditionally, "gain an honor" the no, there's really no answer to cards such as Backhanded Compliment... and if there was, it would be just as powerful.

Spending three honor to kill one character is not, in and of itself, game-ending. A couple of these could be.

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1 minute ago, agarrett said:

  NPE = Negative Play Experience

Thank you. Given that, I had to admit that yeah, playing against Scorpion decks are, overall, negative experiences for me. I feel better losing to other decks. It feels like a better game. When I play against scorpion, I'm always on edge, and I feel like they do a lot of things that I can't do anything about, have no answer for, etc. It just... feels bad.

Do I think that means FFG should do something about it? Absolutely not. It's that kind of play that draws Scorpion players to play Scorpion. If they changed that, it wouldn't be the same for them, which would be a very negative experience indeed - not the sour grapes of a single game, but the feeling of a company caving to the complaints of a loud few to change the design of a whole clan.

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The old ccg scorpion had some pretty bad experiences but honor and enlightenment did too. So far I think ffg has done a good job with the game. They pretty much got rid of all the things I disliked in the old ccg, like army building and losing a game in a single conflict, and kept the feel and spirit of the game alive and impactful, especially the ring mechanics.

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3 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:

Thank you. Given that, I had to admit that yeah, playing against Scorpion decks are, overall, negative experiences for me. I feel better losing to other decks. It feels like a better game. When I play against scorpion, I'm always on edge, and I feel like they do a lot of things that I can't do anything about, have no answer for, etc. It just... feels bad.

Do I think that means FFG should do something about it? Absolutely not. It's that kind of play that draws Scorpion players to play Scorpion. If they changed that, it wouldn't be the same for them, which would be a very negative experience indeed - not the sour grapes of a single game, but the feeling of a company caving to the complaints of a loud few to change the design of a whole clan.

As a Scorpion player, I feel that way about Dragon. "Oh, you have a bazillion attachments and are now 1000 strength 'roid monsters who don't care I dishonored them?  GG, bro." I may run dishonor, but I still have to win conflicts somehow sometimes, and Banzai isn't always enough.

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2 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:

Thank you. Given that, I had to admit that yeah, playing against Scorpion decks are, overall, negative experiences for me. I feel better losing to other decks. It feels like a better game. When I play against scorpion, I'm always on edge, and I feel like they do a lot of things that I can't do anything about, have no answer for, etc. It just... feels bad.

Do I think that means FFG should do something about it? Absolutely not. It's that kind of play that draws Scorpion players to play Scorpion. If they changed that, it wouldn't be the same for them, which would be a very negative experience indeed - not the sour grapes of a single game, but the feeling of a company caving to the complaints of a loud few to change the design of a whole clan.

And that's kind of what I wanted to get at. There seems to be a large conflation between Backhanded Compliment being an NPE and dishonour itself being an NPE. The honour mechanics in L5R are fantastic, but I can see how the possibility of those last 2–3 honour being discarded without reply could be more than is good for the game right now.

Also consider that the discussion rose up around the belief that Scorpion running BC would be a net negative to the aim of growing the community. It was not stated that it would be an NPE for existing players, but a possible barrier to new players seeing the game as fun. Next year we may switch to keeper and BC will be fine because the breadth of experience will be there.

Obviously, everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, it doesn't help when a lot of people appear to be arguing something that isn't actually in contention. That just breeds frustration in all parties.

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2 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Tell me exactly how you move your dial a little bit to the right after you've already been dropped to 0?

I know where your are going with this, and I think you're wrong.

Trying to proactively protect against BC by bidding lower is just denying me additional cards that would help me win conflicts before the eventual slow crawl to an honor loss that a good Scorpion player would cause as they would then just pressure me my hand which eventually forces me to high bid or lose to their card advantage.

Bidding less or playing cards that gain honor buys you time to either destroy your oponents stronghold or assamble your op combos with the new Crane and Lion 5 costers.

Edited by Ignithas

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5 minutes ago, Ignithas said:

...playing cards that gain honor...

How many of those are there? Honored Blade (Lion splashable), Ikoma Prodigy (Lion exclusive), Meddling Mediator (Phoenix exclusive), and the upcoming Way of the Chrysanthemum (neutral). That's... a disappointing list, in my humblest of opinions.

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1 minute ago, selderane said:

It's going to be just like old times! When Crane did dishonor better than Scorpion and still everyone hated Scorpion anyway.

I'm having Celestial Edition flashbacks.

I thought all you scorpion loved drinking the tears of everyone and lived to be hated. ?

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17 minutes ago, Ignithas said:

Bidding lower buys you time to destroy your oponents stronghold. 

 

Bidding less or playing cards that gain honor buys you time to either destroy your oponents stronghold or assamble your op combos with the new Crane and Lion 5 costers.

Sorry but #lowbid isn't the catch all solution you're making it out to be as I suspected you would.

In reality when you low bid vs Scorpion they overwhelm you with cards and force your honor down anyways.  Giving them another card to close the gap for those final points of honor just makes it worse.

Maybe next year when there are more cards and playstyles are more varied.  For now I think we dodged a bullet and I'm glad that the friends I've dragged into this game will not have to sit across from a Scorpion armed with BC right out of the gate.

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BC would be great if it was play during a conflict. Max 1 per conflict. You could play all 3 a turn and all the levies you like. But opponent would have chance to refute, try to take an honor saving ring, win in an honoured blade etc. Card would be interactive. Not just wipe 3 honour. 

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