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theaficionado

The Scorpion Tanker and Backhanded Compliment

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26 minutes ago, Yogo Gohei said:

The what now??

Each of the elements are getting a province that says, "air role only" and so on for each element. So another card that is affected by which role and element chosen by the highest player of each clan. 

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22 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

  Let them complain. It's literally all they can do about it.

It doesn't authorize them to insult or to wish them to "go burn in ****" as some have done . And honestly, if a decision like this put somebody in the state of fury we have seen here, he probably should take a break of the game for his own good.

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1 hour ago, SideshowLucifer said:

Are you guys who are complaining about traveling players of the old ccg?

Before this goes out of hand, I have not complained at all about traveling, or the impossibility to come to Worlds. Like most Europeans, I perfectly know that I may never have the chance to be there and I don't even care so much, I'm happy for the best players at the tournament to take decisions about game and lore in my stead. 

On the other hand, trying to put an end to every debate saying "Come to Worlds if you want to have a say" is not a fair or mature stance, in any discussion. If people complain about the role pick, or the story decision, either ignore them or talk about the topic itself. Don't shut'em up just because they could not be in Minnesota in a certain week of the year.

Edited by franzvong

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Not weighing in on this decision made, because I have no desire to play L5R competitively anymore,  but I would like a vote into some things, no matter how small when it comes to this game since I'm willing to purchase all the products that FFG is producing for it.  Even in the CCG days you had the Imperial Assembly, the Clan Councils at different events, the Race for the Throne mega game, and even Koku redemption that gave you access to shape the world of Rokugan regardless of your participation in the competitive environment. I'm not saying I should have the same say as the world champ but I'm paying my dues in my own way. They could put a "put a stamp on this card and send to FFG to vote for this" in the dynasty packs.

Ah well,  it's probably all wishful thinking. I loved this game in the AEG days,  I have enjoyed this new iteration, and continue to "vote" that Rokugan is an awesome place even if it is just by buying product. 

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4 hours ago, Hinomura said:

To be clear: Brad didn't make the pick, I did. I gave Brad props for what he had tried to do, but my intention, since getting the first pick at GenCon, was always to go for Seeker of Void.

Just wanna say thanks for enlightening me to how the pick came about properly, in this post and previous ones.

The situation makes a lot more sense to me now, even if I do disagree about the power level of Backhanded Compliment.

It's a shame that this thread turned into a little bit of a "Well, why didn't YOU go and win for Scorpion?" when many of us just can't afford the travel. I've been to Minnesota twice due to being Aussie champ for various games, but I doubt I'm ever going to fork out 2000 AUD+ in order to go play. 

To be clear, I'm not actually a Scorpion player. I was just curious about the situation overall, and I was actually thinking that Backhanded Compliment would be an interesting, if mildly scary, card to fight against. Oni Mask, on the other hand...

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Making a story choice is one of the prerogatives of tournament success in L5R. If Brad's intention had been to saddle Scorpion with a subpar choice it would have been annoying, but even then the clan could have prevented by having someone else do better than him. However, the intention of preventing an NPE is very different, and mechanically seeker of void is very strong. So the clan has nothing to complain about.

 

Furthermore, interesting storylines and conflicts make the game more enjoyable for everyone. The game as a whole and the storyline in particular is much more entertaining if we don't insist that bad things never happen to our chosen clan. Bad stuff happening to your clan is what drives story and provides heroic characters an opportunity to struggle to fix things. Nothing is bad, really, about someone infiltrating the clan: it is, in my opinion, just a fun cool thing, and people should roll with it.

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So, if this move was to stop a NPE, how was that achieved of 99.9% if the games everyone will play is casual? What's stopping the card from being played in that environment? 

Unless it's banned from Scorpion decks in casual play, this move seems to me to only be intended to deny Scorpion decks a useful tool in tournaments. 

Edited by selderane

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Overall I find the mechanic of the role selection and changes over time to be fascinating and of less impact than I think some people are attributing to them. We do not know all of the cards that will be in play a year from now. Loss of access to one of them (even one that looks to be as interesting an option as Backhanded) is not a death knell for the clan. Is it a weaker choice than could have been made? Sure it could be, but that was the point of the sabotage as appears to be the real motivation. To weaken the clan. That is the nature and part of the intention of the system being set up the way it is. If not there would be more checks in place to minimize an unpopular choice.

One must respect that a Dragon Hatamoto went to such lengths to weaken the clan. He gave up Hatamoto. He took the time and money to travel to worlds. Then the most meritocratic portion of his sacrifice, he played a clan he does like (or at least feared to face with the Keeper role as a Dragon player). You have to admire that. That's sacrifice. You have to respect such a sacrifice to manipulate the meta. It's sad that has been cheapened it by claiming the sabotage was 'for the good of the game'. 

The player who made the choice is also a player who clearly doesn't want to face Keeper Scorpion. And he did what he had to do to make that happen. We can't begrudge him his choice. He ranked well enough to make the choice. He choose what would be good for him rather than what was good for the rest of the clan. Maybe he doesn't want to play Scorpion, or doesn't want to face the mirror match against Keeper Scorpion. It doesn't matter though. He earned the right to make the choice.

Personally I would have had a lot more respect for these sinister moves if they were not trying to play it off as if they did us some sort of favor. One could argue that if a player really wanted to use Keeper Scorpion in official events (and clearly many do) that making an unpopular and inferior choice is a bigger NPE than 3 copies of one card would be. I do not think it is a sound argument, but neither is stating that card is going to be some huge NPE that warrants the choice just to prevent it from being played by it clan.

****, if its such a bad NPE this decision is a failure. Crab is Keeper. They already have good in clan options for dishonor, adding this in can actually be quite similar as it being in Scorpion. Now keep in mind we don't know if that's true. We don't know the rest of the card pool. 

We need to dispense with the pretense and attempts at this 'moral high ground of trying to improve the game'. That's egotistical and based off of ignorance. We also need to dispense with 'the sky is falling for Scorpion'. Adapt. Build a deck with Seeker of Void and play it a few dozen times. Play with all of the options we have coming over the next 2 months. Then make a call on how balanced it is. Then adapt again. Either play another clan you enjoy more, or learn to use what Scorpion has to do better.

And for any non-official event, guess what. You can play any role you want! I know I will try both Keeper of Air and Fire over the next few months as well as working to perfect a Seeker of Void deck. I may also tool around with a Crab/Scorpion deck for the fun of it. In another year or so we will have a much larger card pool and everything should be somewhat different than it is today anyhow. Might as well get ready for more change!

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10 minutes ago, Krashwire said:

It's sad that has been cheapened it by claiming the sabotage was 'for the good of the game'... 

We need to dispense with the pretense and attempts at this 'moral high ground of trying to improve the game'. That's egotistical and based off of ignorance.

This. 100%.

When I heard what had happened I thought it was actually kinda funny. I had zero problem with it. 

Then I read the "justification".

Everything soured. He was trying to save the game? Really? One card was going to break it? You think the game designers are so stupid that it took you to save them from themelves? 

You out Scorpioned the Scorpion. Leave it at that. Simply say you didn't want to see the card used in tournaments. 

But no. You had to save the game. 

Sure. 

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You know: if we got rid of predatory capitalism it would be easier to travel to events...

also, I’m a little miffed that someone has already carpetbagged in order to screw a clan. Very unsporting. 

But what do you expect from predatory capitalists?

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23 minutes ago, SideshowLucifer said:

I hope not. That was the single worst decision in the ccg in my opinion. I'm all for a playable shadowlands faction, but the spider as a great clan was just an abomination. 

That strikes me as a very selfish stance. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean others shouldn't be allowed to play them.

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56 minutes ago, Isawa Syd said:

You know: if we got rid of predatory capitalism it would be easier to travel to events...

also, I’m a little miffed that someone has already carpetbagged in order to screw a clan. Very unsporting. 

But what do you expect from predatory capitalists?

Lol here we go. 

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Personally I do not see loss of three honor in a flash as terrible as some might have. Right now the game is still an infant. Bid 5 actions are still all over the place, and you can lose 4 honor immediately to that. Its the same card draw/honor payment. Backhanded Compliment would not have been NPE in the long run. Already people are talking about bid 5's going out of favor with way of the Chrysanthemum because it could mean an 8 honor gain first turn. Between Honored Characters leaving the battle field, and Ring of Air, its a non-issue.

Dishonor has always been and will always be tough for the person being dishonored. This was an issue in the CCG, and Scorpion came under the same fire and called out for NPE now and then due to combos, and in that game you could easily lose 6-8 honor in a turn and have no control over it. If a Scorpion is having you draw cards and lose honor, then why are you continuing to bid high? Hes giving you card advantage, and if he wants to bid high as well to close the gap...then your getting that honor back, if he wants to keep bidding one, then hes got choices to make. Lose an honor to get an extra card then steal it back with box (and be susceptible to Ring of Air and all the Dishonor they do for cancels). Disdainful Remark+Backhanded would not work for any player with a modicum of strategic thought. 

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25 minutes ago, theGricks said:

Personally I do not see loss of three honor in a flash as terrible as some might have. Right now the game is still an infant. Bid 5 actions are still all over the place, and you can lose 4 honor immediately to that. Its the same card draw/honor payment. Backhanded Compliment would not have been NPE in the long run. Already people are talking about bid 5's going out of favor with way of the Chrysanthemum because it could mean an 8 honor gain first turn. Between Honored Characters leaving the battle field, and Ring of Air, its a non-issue.

Dishonor has always been and will always be tough for the person being dishonored. This was an issue in the CCG, and Scorpion came under the same fire and called out for NPE now and then due to combos, and in that game you could easily lose 6-8 honor in a turn and have no control over it. If a Scorpion is having you draw cards and lose honor, then why are you continuing to bid high? Hes giving you card advantage, and if he wants to bid high as well to close the gap...then your getting that honor back, if he wants to keep bidding one, then hes got choices to make. Lose an honor to get an extra card then steal it back with box (and be susceptible to Ring of Air and all the Dishonor they do for cancels). Disdainful Remark+Backhanded would not work for any player with a modicum of strategic thought. 

Had the Scorpion gotten backhanded compliment - **** I'm worried about Crab splashing it - I'm already thinking of ways to play around it with my Lion deck.

The card that essentially doubles the honor you gain from bidding lower than you opponent, coupled with the character that gives me a card for winning a military conflict. That also can blend in with the Lion character that has +5 mil strength but doesn't break a province. I know I'll be swinging Air. Guard duty will be great to honor my defenders and try to prevent honor loss that way.

And I don't know the full card list. I already see options to avoid dishonor - mostly involving my card selection and play.

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Honor is a resource. I haven't played magic in like 17 years, but I look at it like my "life total". If I know my opponent has a card that can deal X amount of damage, then I better make sure either my life total doesn't get to that point or I have a counter. People are letting their honor get low now because they can. Perhaps now we have to be more careful with that resource. We already seeing clans getting more ways to draw cards outside of bidding.

Edited by Shu2jack

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7 minutes ago, Reins Vengard said:

If only someone had pointed out that screwing over a clan was a possibility from this crappy story prize maybe we could've had some foresight into this ridiculousness.

Well to be fair I think a lot of us saw the possibility of this happening as soon as the first clan cards with role requirements were spoiled. 

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For those that want a say but can't participate due to other obligations, be more involved with the other forms of social media (discord/facebook/other forums) it may not be the most direct line to a result but putting your voice into one of the active chats especially during big events can help shape your clan in some way possibly if your words reach your clan more directly than just the twitch chat when they stream.

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12 minutes ago, Daigotsu Bakunin said:

Scorpion are hardly screwed, we aren't ponies after all. If someone had done this with Unicorn I'd get foul, but Scorpion are fine.

I know, right? I mean, all this outrage is over 1 card. There's plenty of other good cards coming, and they're already one of the strongest clans. Plus if the leaked provinces image is accurate, they'll have access to a completely bonkers void province, AND be able to run it alongside Pilgrimage or Shameful Display. 

Edited by Zesu Shadaban

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1 hour ago, cerealkiller195 said:

For those that want a say but can't participate due to other obligations, be more involved with the other forms of social media (discord/facebook/other forums) it may not be the most direct line to a result but putting your voice into one of the active chats especially during big events can help shape your clan in some way possibly if your words reach your clan more directly than just the twitch chat when they stream.

1. Speaking as someone who did precisely this in the days of the CCG... it often goes nowhere. Particularly if a good player is bandwagoning your clan simply because they can win with it and they aren't exactly invested in the jabber of people who care more about clan loyalty than victory (and yes, we're out there, oh god are we out there...). In addition, for all the chatter back and forth, the winner's choice is theirs. I sincerely doubt the Scorpion rank and file fanbase wanted this role, at least if the wails of anguish are anything to go by. And that's without getting into the less united fanbases *cough*Phoenixplayersagreeonalmostnothing*cough*

2. The old Phoenix Clan forums are gone (The new ones of which I have the dubious distinction of being an admin are tomblike in their silence). The Mantis and Spider/Shadowlands forums are gathering places with no faction to champion as of this writing (and by the way, Shinden Fu Leng rocks when they have anything to talk about...). The Scorpion used to (and still might) have two forums of roughly comparable stature. The hiatus between the IP sale and the launch mauled a lot of the communities pretty savagely.

3. Facebook is awful for archiving discussions.

4. Discord is something not everybody is comfortable with- I certainly have no intention of plunging into a real-time chat when my time zone lines up with almost nobody's.

 

Not saying your impulse is a terrible one, but let's not oversell the effectiveness of that route.

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