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ElSuave

New Clan Roles + Story Decision

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15 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I think he was foolish, prideful, and just wanted to screw over Scorpion.  Scorpion have few cards that directly cause honor loss.  In order to even attempt dishonor Scorpion would need to choose between Levy or Watch Commander using all of their influence for 1 extra card...  This was really the only card for Scorpion to get excited about, and now its off the table for a year before its even released.

Meanwhile Crab have both Watch Commander AND Levy... and BC is just 1 influence...  If he really possessed any amount of foresight he'd have stopped Crab from being able to use it.  They are the closest to a raw dishonor deck with their defensive style and multiple direct honor-loss cards already...

The narrative that this is somehow in flavor of the Scorpion to sabotage themselves is reaching.  This isn't the Scorpion sabotaging themselves, this is an imposer causing problems for no good reason.  NPE is now this entire year seeing this awesome card and not being able to use it without ditching my clan.  !@#$ this guy, he can burn in ****.

If you think Levy and Watch Commander is how you play dishonor Scorpion, you're not playing dishonor scorpion.

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Whoa Sho.  Have a snickers bro.  

I get the outrage.  If Goblin Sneak was a seeker role and I wanted to play keeper I'd be bummed out and that card isn't even that great.  You're loyal to Sorpion and I can understand you wanting to play all the Scorpion cards.  Unfortunately with seeker and keeper roles this will never happen in competitive play and that is were balance is the most important.

My local friends can all colletively decide hey this is no let's let's not play this.  But in tournaments people will play what's best.  In this first cycle they loaded some strong cards to the keeper side and this is the end result. Bummer for some, especially those loyal to your clan like you are.  I feel for ya.......but honestly not more than I want the overall game to be balanced.  I'd want the same thing if my faction were in the same position. 

Hopefully this ends up being a blip on the radar....which I think ultimately it will be.  Scorpion are still really good.  They are just going to have to work a little yards now that other clans will be closing the distance a bit with the new cards and role choices.

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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You talk like you know the guy, you don't. Moreover; it's not like he chose the role anyways. Other high level scorpion players have the same stance as he does and one of those players wanted to be seeker as well. It's not like Brad is a wizard that brainwashed people. He pleaded his case to anyone that would listen, but let's not pretend that it took much convincing for Mark to want to go with a seeker role. Mark wanted the role he chose, he just wasn't as vocal about it. Brad came in day 1 letting people know his intentions.

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I hate to change the topic, but since this threat is called "New Roles + STORY DECISION" I just wanted to say that I REALLY liked how the fiction portrayed the Tsuko making the "Justice" decision. I mean the fiction pretty much states that Tsuko suspected that someone expected her to go for blood and ignore the consequences. I think a stereotype I sometimes see of the Lion is that they're brash and unthinking in their pursuit of honor--I think the fact that a Lion player was the one who decided to take the more nuanced path suggests that actual Lion players want their clan to be better than that. This makes the Lion a hundred times more interesting to me than they were before (and it also makes me less sad that a Dragon didn't win--this story decision REALLY needed to be made by a lion).

Also, will we get to see the decklists that the top players used any time soon? I'm still very much a noob at this game--I don't intend to netdeck, but I really want to see the decklists because I'm still at a point where I don't really know how to judge the relative gameplay value of a card. Seeing what cards people used and didn't use could help me alot there. 

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11 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I refuse snickers.

The Scorpion were given this role specifically to knee-cap them, and they weren't even the strongest clan.  If only Let Go were Keeper Only and a player decided to knee-cap Dragon with a Seeker role, maybe then people would understand.  For now, its just "oh this is so great, scorpion hate, scorpion hate, scorpion hate and a bunch of fear."  I can accept the idea that I have to play with whatever the game has, but the idea that this guy did anything good for the game is delusional.  Other clans who are arguably more equipped for dishonor already will still have access to this card, so if it was oh-so-powerful NPE or whatever other buzzwords people want to use its still going to wreck havoc on the game...

Fair enough.  I'm a Take 5 guy myself.

Again I get it.  If it were my clan I know there would be some initial outrage.  Lucky for me I don't have a clan to be loyal too.  I would like to think it allows me to be more objective about what is good than how I used to be with the old game.

When the cards come out.....get them.  Eventually Scorpion is getting a seeker role.  They are too good not to.  Until then build a deck using the keeper role, play BC and splash Crane for Disdainful Remark.  Then play a bunch of casual games with your friends and see how many people genuinely enjoy that matchup against you.  I'm willing to bet you whatever candy bar you'd like that most of them will come to the same conclusion somre already have.

Again I feel your pain, I just happen to think they did the best thing for the game at this point.  By the end of the year, when the card pool is much deeper it's likely not going to be an issue.  And if I somehow make it to next years worlds and shadowlands is not an option, I'll play Scorpion and try to win whatever role you want.

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2 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Then play a bunch of casual games with your friends and see how many people genuinely enjoy that matchup against you.

Well said. I use to run scorpion dishonour in CCG and people were more pissed off when they lost straight honor than when the loss was a reaction to something they did. After a while friends straight out refused to play this deck because it was frustrating. 

Later on, a friend played a very frustrating pony that I ended up refusing to play too, and people couldn't understand why, despite refusing to play my scorpion because it frustrated them then. 

Direct honor loss creates frustration and many finds it unfair. But it's part of the game as well.

Also I think we are dealing with two kinds of scorpion player complaining. The ones who feels cheated of Backhanded and the ones actually complaining about the ring and role not being as favorable as they hoped.

 

Edited by Nitenman

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2 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Fair enough.  I'm a Take 5 guy myself.

Again I get it.  If it were my clan I know there would be some initial outrage.  Lucky for me I don't have a clan to be loyal too.  I would like to think it allows me to be more objective about what is good than how I used to be with the old game.

When the cards come out.....get them.  Eventually Scorpion is getting a seeker role.  They are too good not to.  Until then build a deck using the keeper role, play BC and splash Crane for Disdainful Remark.  Then play a bunch of casual games with your friends and see how many people genuinely enjoy that matchup against you.  I'm willing to bet you whatever candy bar you'd like that most of them will come to the same conclusion somre already have.

Again I feel your pain, I just happen to think they did the best thing for the game at this point.  By the end of the year, when the card pool is much deeper it's likely not going to be an issue.  And if I somehow make it to next years worlds and shadowlands is not an option, I'll play Scorpion and try to win whatever role you want.

I think Shosuko is more bothered by the presumption of this person than their actual choice.

If they had made their choice and said nothing other than they believe the mask was a better choice, I doubt many would complain.

But this crap about making the game better for everyone etc. Is just that, crap. That's not their task. They are not there to fix the game for everyone. That's up to the developers. Using this opportunity as a chance to do that is really ****.

Edited by Tebbo

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33 minutes ago, Tebbo said:

I think Shosuko is more bothered by the presumption of this person than their actual choice.

If they had made their choice and said nothing other than they believe the mask was a better choice, I doubt many would complain.

But this crap about making the game better for everyone etc. Is just that, crap. That's not their task. They are not there to fix the game for everyone. That's up to the developers. Using this opportunity as a chance to do that is really ****.

They are there to decide on the role of the clan. How they choose to decide is up to them. 

Also, how is making the game better for everyone a bad thing? Of course it is the developers' job, but we as players should also work to make it as best as possible for everyone.

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13 minutes ago, Radix2309 said:

Also, how is making the game better for everyone a bad thing? Of course it is the developers' job, but we as players should also work to make it as best as possible for everyone.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the tournament rules and his reasoning for making this choice.

He didn't remove the possibility that this card will see tournament play, correct? He just removed the possibility that his own clan, as well as the other clans with Seeker roles, cannot use it right?

Also, what is NPE an abbreviation of/for? I'm seeing that term tossed around a lot.

Edited by Kong
Wording

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4 minutes ago, KerenRhys said:

Negative Play Experience

Thank you for the quick answer.

Weird. I thought honor wins/dishonor losses were a core part of L5R, even the old version. I did not realize these options had become NPE. When did that happen?

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28 minutes ago, Radix2309 said:

They are there to decide on the role of the clan. How they choose to decide is up to them. 

Also, how is making the game better for everyone a bad thing? Of course it is the developers' job, but we as players should also work to make it as best as possible for everyone.

Because you don't know at all what they know and they are ultimately the arbiters of the entire game. 

As a player your only 'job' is to not ruin the game for other players. Not via mechanics etc., that's for the developers. By just being a decent human being and not a **** to others.

Edited by Tebbo

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17 minutes ago, Kong said:

Thank you for the quick answer.

Weird. I thought honor wins/dishonor losses were a core part of L5R, even the old version. I did not realize these options had become NPE. When did that happen?

A long time ago. I began old L5R in Gold Edition and for a lot of people, Gardening Honor was already considered a NPE then as were Dishonor Bomb decks a few months/years later.

Since as far as I can remember, there have always been complaints of military players that honor and dishonor decks were NPE and should just disappear. It's something you have to learn to ignore when you play L5R.

There, I'll predict that as soon as we'll see a stable and competitive honor deck in the LCG, you'll see the complaints coming back about it.

Edited by KerenRhys

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5 minutes ago, Kong said:

Thank you for the quick answer.

Weird. I thought honor wins/dishonor losses were a core part of L5R, even the old version. I did not realize these options had become NPE. When did that happen?

When they made a card that straight out made a player lose honor without having to set up the honor loss or giving the opponent an opportunity to prevent the honor loss, like most other cards in the game so far. Even the air ring makes you win a conflict first, and dishonoring a character gives something of a window to get rid of the dishonor token if the opponent can.

Giving the chosen player a card was meant to even out the honor loss, so that even the person playing it might consider using it on themselves, but I feel that dishonoring one of the chosen players characters would have been a better effect rather than just outright making them lose one honor. Plus that would line up better with several cards scorpion has that dishonors one of their characters for an effect already.

I would have liked to see how backhanded compliment played out before someone shut scorpion out of one of the tools given to us, but that is what that player chose for his role. I will play scorpion keeper at my local stores just to see how it plays out and see for myself how bad it may or may not be.

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Going back to the choices made, I'm not a big fan of the seeker titles. The seeker cards haven't really wowed me compared to just using the Keeper Initiate or the Keeper role. I do hope we get more of the individual cards to make the choices worth it.

I'm still a bit surprised by the Justice choice but also happy compared to the problems that would have arose from the Duty one. The upcoming investigation should be 'fun' if it's done correctly in the fluff or as a card.

 

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Some of the new provinces that are coming out are pretty snazzy.  Seeker of Void might not be all that bad considering.  Massing At Twilight seems like it could be pretty crazy. Especially when they can throw Fiery Madness in for a total of -4.  That seems really good.  Also being Seeker means you can run Blood of Onnotangu, and that's a pretty mean option for Fire. Honestly now that we have all these new Province spoilers I'm not sure there is a bad choice.  I can see being salty about not being about to run Backhanded Compliment, but Oni Mask can really shut down alot of stuff for 1 fate.  That seems like a really nice answer to a bunch of problem cards.

I like that it was a Lion player that picked the Story choice.

Edited by phillos

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1 hour ago, KerenRhys said:

A long time ago. I began old L5R in Gold Edition and for a lot of people, Gardening Honor was already considered a NPE then as were Dishonor Bomb decks a few months/years later.

Since as far as I can remember, there have always been complaints of military players that honor and dishonor decks were NPE and should just disappear. It's something you have to learn to ignore when you play L5R.

There, I'll predict that as soon as we'll see a stable and competitive honor deck in the LCG, you'll see the complaints coming back about it.

I think you’re right, but it’s also depends on how interactive that deck is on the extent to which it’s an NPE.

Non-interactive wins are not fun.

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@Kubernes 

I think the Keeper cards are significantly stronger than Seeker cards, but the seeker role is substantially stronger than the keeper role. 2 extra money a game is incredibly valuable and something Phoenix will miss more than they realize. On the flipside I think Dragon is going to be loving the added economy. 

As for the influence provided by the Keeper Role, I personally think being able to play two provinces of the same type is more impactful than 3 extra influence. Conflict cards are already quite powerful and the downgrade from 1-2 cards from your splash vs some in faction cards or neutral cards is negligible. The flexibility to double up on province element types is huge. Equally huge is not being forced to play a certain element. Control decks typically don't want to play water provinces because they are one time use effects. Aggro decks want provinces that have the highest impact. Being able to not choose earth provinces for them is nice.

With all that said, Harmonize and Disdainful Remark are both tier 1 cards in pretty much any deck. Talisman is also kind of nuts. You can build around those cards in a way that I don't think you can with the seeker only cards. Seeker initiate is also trash. 

Edited by kiramode

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7 hours ago, kiramode said:

@Kubernes 

I think the Keeper cards are significantly stronger than Seeker cards, but the seeker role is substantially stronger than the keeper role. 2 extra money a game is incredibly valuable and something Phoenix will miss more than they realize. On the flipside I think Dragon is going to be loving the added economy. 

As for the influence provided by the Keeper Role, I personally think being able to play two provinces of the same type is more impactful than 3 extra influence. Conflict cards are already quite powerful and the downgrade from 1-2 cards from your splash vs some in faction cards or neutral cards is negligible. The flexibility to double up on province element types is huge. Equally huge is not being forced to play a certain element. Control decks typically don't want to play water provinces because they are one time use effects. Aggro decks want provinces that have the highest impact. Being able to not choose earth provinces for them is nice.

With all that said, Harmonize and Disdainful Remark are both tier 1 cards in pretty much any deck. Talisman is also kind of nuts. You can build around those cards in a way that I don't think you can with the seeker only cards. Seeker initiate is also trash. 

This analysis looks pretty spot on. I don't think that there is a single Seeker/Keeper Card that is as strong as Talisman. But I don't think that the Keeper cards are straight up better than the Seeker cards, given that Guard Duty is narrow, Northern Wall Sensei is trash and Crisis Breaker very MU dependant. On the flip side: Pathfinder's Blade is amazing (especially in Dragon), Test of Skill is pretty nutty with Yoshi, The Stone of Sorrows can easily win you the game if not handled and Time of War is a sleeper card.

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