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Nothing Personell Kid: A look into "why can I teleport?" aka "What's the deal with range bands"

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I think the range bands are mostly about distances, not about movement speed. The positions are relative and not absolute, so if one character moves 3 range bands then the opponent might still be 4 range bands away. So, it is basically always about what the character can just do there right in the moment, and it is never about a tactical approach of how long will it take for the character to reach someone. This is not a cosim, thus we don't need to treat it as such. Sure, the rules might need a little more clarification that moving multiple range bands doesn't mean that the relative position to others change then in range bands too, but I tgought that was easy to deduce with a little common sense.

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2 minutes ago, Exarkfr said:

Yeah. But if the devs could make it clear how it is supposed to work and have something consistant for "longer" distances (ie. the gap that range band 4 creates & the "journey in narrative time" about range 6), it would be much better.

Buying a system to change a big part of it is... not very attractive.
Plus, I'd rather change something that I understand, than change something because I don't understand it.

I get that, but it’s hardly a big part of the system especially if you keep the first bands to simulate melee reaches. If you wanted to change or remove strife, sure, better just play something else entirely. Just movement over distances though, that’s pretty minimal.

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3 minutes ago, Drudenfusz said:

I think the range bands are mostly about distances, not about movement speed.

Moving in Range Band per turn makes it a speed

 

5 minutes ago, Drudenfusz said:

The positions are relative and not absolute, so if one character moves 3 range bands then the opponent might still be 4 range bands away.

I see 2 problems, here.

1) How do you track it ?

2) How do you cover the distance if you never reduce the range ?

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2 minutes ago, Exarkfr said:

Moving in Range Band per turn makes it a speed

Yes, but only in the for that character, not in relation to the whole world around. The movement is in that turn, when the GM says that something is 2 range bands away, then the character can reach it, if it is further awy, it doen't change the possition to those objects in range bands, but keeps those as distances.

2 minutes ago, Exarkfr said:

I see 2 problems, here.

1) How do you track it ?

2) How do you cover the distance if you never reduce the range ?

1) I don't. It's not a tactical game, such things do not matter.

2) You do so outside of the conflict simulation, in a narrative manner. That is why the rules say you apply that only when it is relevant.

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1 minute ago, Drudenfusz said:

1) I don't. It's not a tactical game, such things do not matter.

2) You do so outside of the conflict simulation, in a narrative manner. That is why the rules say you apply that only when it is relevant.

1) I don't agree with that.
See some of my previous posts about actions and techniques nearly all having a range, and actions being a limited ressource to manage

2) If I were to not track range during a conflict, I certainly wouldn't track it outside.
Again, if it the system is that narrative, why have ranges slapped everywhere ?

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42 minutes ago, Drudenfusz said:

This is not a cosim, ...

but apparently it is.

rb.jpg.2c2356fe0f93931d03b7e69ca12d8545.

I mean, if that is not a cosim... why would I need this complicated ruler?

The rule I presented a few posts back, where I effectively cut doen the range bands to the engaged and not engaged status actually works without a ruler and without headache and would make movement actually narrative.

A thing which range bands do not... Because we need a weird ruler.

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3 minutes ago, Yandia said:

but apparently it is.

rb.jpg.2c2356fe0f93931d03b7e69ca12d8545.

I mean, if that is not a cosim... why would I need this complicated ruler?

The rule I presented a few posts back, where I effectively cut doen the range bands to the engaged and not engaged status actually works without a ruler and without headache and would make movement actually narrative.

A thing which range bands do not... Because we need a weird ruler.

I don't need a weird ruler, it just shows that individual momenment does not change the range band relations to others. Again, try to look at it as a system of relative positions, not about absolute ones.

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7 minutes ago, Drudenfusz said:

I don't need a weird ruler, it just shows that individual momenment does not change the range band relations to others. Again, try to look at it as a system of relative positions, not about absolute ones.

So you are saying that they could simply remove all movement rules and do not make distinctions between range 0-2, because within these range bands distances are easily overcome and outside of these range bands movement doesn't change anything.

So question: Why did they put in all these rules in the book if the only good solution is to ignore them?

Edited by Yandia

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3 minutes ago, Yandia said:

So you are saying that they could simply remove all movement rules and do not make distinctions between range 0-2, because within these range bands distences are easily overcome and outside of these range bands movement doesn't change anything.

So question: Why did they put in all these rules in the book if the only good solution is to ignore them?

First: it is bad argumentation style to tell the other what they are saying, since that usually leads only to strawman. But I will let that slight today and keep at with this friendly reminder.

Second: higher movement is possible through magic and other ways, so the larger rangebands still have its use. But more inportant like I said multiple time, they also serve for distances of weapon usage or casting range of spells.

Third: Because like they said, they are not there to be used all the time, but only when they become relevant... but I start to repeat myself.

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1 minute ago, Drudenfusz said:

First: it is bad argumentation style to tell the other what they are saying, since that usually leads only to strawman. But I will let that slight today and keep at with this friendly reminder.

An argument style which you like to follow as well... I mean I obviously do not want an L5R cosim, I think nobody in this thread want that, but that is the stawman you are attacking.

So please take your own advice and refute the arguments people are actually making.

Second: higher movement is possible through magic and other ways, so the larger rangebands still have its use. But more inportant like I said multiple time, they also serve for distances of weapon usage or casting range of spells.

Distance and movement in meters would serve the exact same purpose. And other than range bands most people on this planet have an intutive understanding of meters.

Spells which allow you to speed up could increase your movement in meters per round.

I fail to see the advantage of range bands, when the simply question "How many rounds do I need to reach a certain destination?" results in a lot of unnessary math and a weird ruler.

  • I want to move to a point which is 120 m away.
  • I can make 10 m per round, 20 m in water stance. That are 6 rounds... way to slow.
  • The water shugenja helps me by tripling my movement speed to 60 m per round, so I can get there in 2 rounds.

How would this scenario play out in range bands? Would you get these results any faster?

I did even make a more abstract suggestion with "engage" and "not engage", which would allow for a more narrative flow of movement within a scene..

But for some reason, the range band solutions seems to be superiour to both suggestions. And I don't get why.

Third: Because like they said, they are not there to be used all the time, but only when they become relevant... but I start to repeat myself.

Yes, I would not want to use these rules all the time...

I also don't play D&D with minitures.

But this thread is about the explicit use of the rules, so when they come into play the should be fast, easy to understand, and should not interrupt the narrative by much.

To say they are not used often should be no excuse for these rules to be this arcane.

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3 hours ago, Drudenfusz said:

..()

I kind of hope your interpretation is wrong purely because I don't want to think that the dev's believed that a system in which you could move 3 units closer to something 5 units away and still have it be 5 units away when the units did not change was an intuitive system that need not further explanation.

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7 hours ago, Yandia said:

An argument style which you like to follow as well... I mean I obviously do not want an L5R cosim, I think nobody in this thread want that, but that is the stawman you are attacking.

I'm one that wouldn't mind being able to use it as a combat simulator. 

 

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14 hours ago, jmoschner said:

I think they want to make you make a fitness roll to travel any kind of real distance, and the side effect is that with a non-linear distance system it can result in stuff like that. The rules for range bands are garbage that need fixing or heavy clarification.

 

Looking at the diagram below.

Line A: Red and Blue are 4 range bands apart.
Line B: Red moves 3 range bands from its starting position.
Line C: Now when we measure from Red's current position, we see that Blue is still 4 range bands away.rb.thumb.jpg.f1f5c7cea50ff93f53f12975ab33ee65.jpg

 

If red can only move 3 bands from its original position each round, and we have to start over measuring each round, then we can extrapolate from there how many rounds it will take to reach a target.

It doesn't make sense that if Red moves 3 bands it would be within melee of Blue if Blue is near the outer edge of 4, but might if blue is at the inner edge of 4.

  • It depends what [red] is doing. He's either moving towards [blue] or is moving around locally.
  • In the latter case, then yes, the range doesn't change because he doesn't move very far compared to the size of range 4.
  • If [red] is moving towards [blue], then he asks the GM "what range is [blue] and is told "range 4". 
  • If he gets to move a range band (one 'move' comes free with your action), then he moves to range 3, which instantly teleports him 3/4 of the distance to [blue].
15 hours ago, Yandia said:
  • Range 6 becomes "obviously not part of this conflict" or a "late arrival".

"Not-Appearing-In-This-Film-Sama?"

15 hours ago, Exarkfr said:

And here you are, wondering what was my approach on my Courtesy roll... :lol:
Shall we start an Intrigue ?

Sits back to await 'inappropriate remark' outbursts (this is the internet, after all. It definitely counts as Defiled Terrain).

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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32 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:
  •  

Sits back to await 'inappropriate remark' outbursts (this is the internet, after all. It definitely counts as Defiled Terrain).

I'm more Earth than Fire. I might just Shutdown first :P

But yeah, with Internet being worse than Shadowlands, who knows...

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They used a similar system in Ex3 too. Which is why I can heartily recommend zones! It leaves the underlying mechanics intact and when running a more complex encounter your brain won't be leaking out of your ears when you look at some ridiculously complex diagram that tries to track the relative distances 10+ combatants are from each other.

 

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5 hours ago, Doji Namika said:

They used a similar system in Ex3 too. Which is why I can heartily recommend zones! It leaves the underlying mechanics intact and when running a more complex encounter your brain won't be leaking out of your ears when you look at some ridiculously complex diagram that tries to track the relative distances 10+ combatants are from each other.

 

Agreed - Ex3's way of handling movement is better.

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10 hours ago, Doji Namika said:

They used a similar system in Ex3 too. Which is why I can heartily recommend zones! It leaves the underlying mechanics intact and when running a more complex encounter your brain won't be leaking out of your ears when you look at some ridiculously complex diagram that tries to track the relative distances 10+ combatants are from each other.

 

Quote

The stables beside the inn. The roof of the villa. An alley in the city. The throne room. All these places have a distinct identity and form a different kind of backdrop in a fight. Rather than map out every square inch on the battlefield, the rules use the concept of Zones instead. A Zone is such a distinct place that separates itself from others through its own unique qualities.

These kinds of zones? I don't know Ex3.

Edited by BitRunr

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Zones are a concept from Fate actually. Ex3 is more like FFG's beta rules, though a bit better, as you don't get so much movement (unless you invest heavily in Athletics Charms). What makes them better and more dynamic is their system of engaging foes through opposed rush actions. You can actually avoid someone, which makes it feel more dynamic and less chess-like.

Anyway, what it shares is the difficulty of tracking distance between multiple combatants. In the end, you will always have to draw a map, as it's so much easier. You don't need hexes/grid and exact distances, just divvy you map up into zones and map the rangebands onto them. The way we are currently running L5R is as follows:

1 move lets you move into an adjacent zone. Some zones require more to cross, depending on difficulty or size of the terrain. Generally you are considered to be at range 3 for all other characters. You need an extra rangeband move to get into engagement range, which is determined by the reach of your weapon, or your opponent's, whichever is greater. If that is beyond your engagement range, you need to spend another move to close that distance. So, for example, you are in the main street, hearing you companion cry out for help in a nearby alley. The zones are adjacent, so if you move 1 range band you can enter that, but you need to move another to engage the thug attempting to rob your friend. If the thug is wielding a spear, engagement range is 2, so you need to move 3 range bands in one move to be able to strike with your katana or fist.

Seems to work for now.

Edited by Doji Namika

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Oh, forgot to mention that when engaged we have it it take a move to become disengaged, but you're still in the same zone. I believe that is about all. Keeps all the current rules intact, and adheres to the spirit of them, but is much less abstract and way easier to visualize. 

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I'm only starting to read the rules for this game.

I can say it sounds similar to the swrpg rules that ffg puts out.

You have extreme, long, medium, short, engaged.

Charecters could move 1 range band, or suffer strain, to take another move manuever.

Engaged was included in short range, but was the indication of brawl and melee range. 

To move from engaged to unengaged was a movement manuever. It took an another to move out of short range to medium.

This was because to manuever out of combat was more effort than running towards something unimpeded. 

 

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I used the "Range bands move you on the map" interpretation last night. It confused the **** out of the players, as they couldn't visualze the bands, despite my making a ruler.

My saturday trio and I all universally agree even movement bands would be "FAR FAR F*ing FAR better."

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It works fine for me. What follows is my approach.


Player A wants to slap Player B.

GM (me) says, "OK he is on the other side of town, you need to move 4 range bands."

Player A (does things to move) shows up at player B.

Player B says, "I want to pull out my spear step back and stab him in the eye."

GM (me) says "ok, thats one band movement and an attack."

Play C shows up to the edge of town and wants to toss a pile of warm refuse at play A. 
 

GM says "roll to strike!"


Just like much of this game, just think about whats happening BEFORE thinking about the rules. Fit the rules to the narrative. Time and distance don't need to be measured. A round of combat can take a minute or a second, just don't worry about it so much.

 

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14 hours ago, Gandhios said:

 

It works fine for me. What follows is my approach.


Player A wants to slap Player B.

GM (me) says, "OK he is on the other side of town, you need to move 4 range bands."

Player A (does things to move) shows up at player B.

Player B says, "I want to pull out my spear step back and stab him in the eye."

GM (me) says "ok, thats one band movement and an attack."

Play C shows up to the edge of town and wants to toss a pile of warm refuse at play A. 
 

GM says "roll to strike!"


Just like much of this game, just think about whats happening BEFORE thinking about the rules. Fit the rules to the narrative. Time and distance don't need to be measured. A round of combat can take a minute or a second, just don't worry about it so much.

We often have a fairly tactical component to combat. Using terrain features, trying to split up enemies to deal with them more easily, the bushi preventing enemies from reaching the shugenja in the back, all sorts of things. Complex situations potentially, but that doesn’t mean complex rules are needed. We use actual movement over actual distances, with a map. It’s still mostly approximations, we don’t measure everything exactly since that’s not needed. But range bands are absolutely terrible for what we do. It’s great if they work for you, but here’s the thing: I’m pretty sure a non-relativistic system would work just as well for you, and it would also work for us, and it could be used as exacting or as narrative as you’d want. That’s my issue with range bands: what’s the point of using them? What good do they do other systems can’t? Why would I want to use them instead of other, much more straightforward systems?

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On 03/11/2017 at 10:00 AM, Doji Namika said:

They used a similar system in Ex3 too. Which is why I can heartily recommend zones! It leaves the underlying mechanics intact and when running a more complex encounter your brain won't be leaking out of your ears when you look at some ridiculously complex diagram that tries to track the relative distances 10+ combatants are from each other.

 

Is "Ex3" exalted?

If it is, Range in Exalted is irrelevant and not a big deal. you choose spears, bows, guns or whatever for the mottif, not for mechanical benefits.  ****, The most powerfull combat offensively in the game is unarmed (go grapple).

To those who dont know what is Exalted: its a game where you play characters given powers from the gods. People that can literally destroy an army alone. The balance of the game is the fact that the whole world is against you, so you being actually overpowered on your own system is no big deal. Its by design.

Edit: He ll is a censored word.

Edited by Mobiusllls

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