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34 minutes ago, HamHamJ2 said:

Such as? I can't think of anything that can do that consistently.

Immediately For Shame is the biggest block to Kachiko.  Bow her and you paid 5 fate for an Outwit, or dishonor her and you paid 5 fate for 3 POL and a crappy Outwit.  Court Games can be just as effective if she is solo, or your other participating characters are already dishonored.

After that conflict Ring of Fire kills her.

Edited by Soshi Nimue

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Just now, Soshi Nimue said:

Immediately For Shame is the biggest block to Kachiko, but Court Games could be just as effective.  After that conflict Ring of Fire kills her.

I disagree about that. For Shame is mediocre at best for her. She still gets to send someone home and bow them, and doesn't impact her usefulness at all next turn.

Speaking as a Phoenix player, I understand the trouble of playing a 5-coster just to see it dishonored, but you generally just have to fight through it. Scorpion has the illusionist and court games to rehonor her if they really want to. And Fire Ring's not even super effect since she's conflict, and she only pops into play during the relevant conflict, giving her at least one full turn of use. That's better than my Tsukune usually gets, and I still play her.

I really don't get the hate. She has counters, but nothing more than most 5-cost characters also succumb to, and she packs a lot of bang for her buck.

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5 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I'm not going to get into some sort of "size matters" argument that ends up being really awkward, but, I wondering what you mean by "They still only get 1 fight"?

Unless you're bringing her in with some fate or putting additional resources into her, you can use her effect once(which is basically a better Outwit), and you can defend a province or crack a province. Thats true of everyone but most characters in the game aren't nearly as costly as she is.

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47 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

I disagree about that. For Shame is mediocre at best for her. She still gets to send someone home and bow them, and doesn't impact her usefulness at all next turn.

Speaking as a Phoenix player, I understand the trouble of playing a 5-coster just to see it dishonored, but you generally just have to fight through it. Scorpion has the illusionist and court games to rehonor her if they really want to. And Fire Ring's not even super effect since she's conflict, and she only pops into play during the relevant conflict, giving her at least one full turn of use. That's better than my Tsukune usually gets, and I still play her.

I really don't get the hate. She has counters, but nothing more than most 5-cost characters also succumb to, and she packs a lot of bang for her buck.

Its not hate.  I wouldn't say Unicorn players hate their characters, but I sure do believe they want them to be better - and hope future cards will be more promising.

For Shame is not mediocre against her, it is a hard counter.  You either bow her negating 6 POL, or cut her POL in half and turn her ability to crap for 0 fate and 1 card.  Kachiko cost 5+ fate and 1 card...  Even if you count that you rush-passed the Dynasty phase that's still 0 fate and 1 card to cut her down or bow her out. 

You can either argue that she gets extra fate, in which case Ring of Fire is a strong counter - OR you can argue that she's a conflict character and thus only popping in during the relevant conflict, in which case For Shame shuts her down.  Both ends aren't so great.  3 Glory as a Scorpion is not a good thing...  I'm sure as a Phoenix player you know that considering dishonor + SH effect is one of the great Phoenix plays.  That could reduce her to 1 POL when dishonored, which completely negates her ability since it only effects characters with lower POL...

Even Tsukune can sit there at 0/0 and claim 2 ring effects a turn...  Kachiko dishonored won't do much of anything.  While Illusionists can help, that is basically the only card in Scorpion that can.  Most of the time Court Games, Ring of Fire, and other effects are used to dishonor the opponent.  Typically my characters just stay dishonored because the Illusionists is just 1 card, and a focused strategy shutting my opponent down can mean more.

Edited by Soshi Nimue

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42 minutes ago, Soshi Nimue said:

Immediately For Shame is the biggest block to Kachiko.  Bow her and you paid 5 fate for an Outwit, or dishonor her and you paid 5 fate for 3 POL and a crappy Outwit.  Court Games can be just as effective if she is solo, or your other participating characters are already dishonored.

After that conflict Ring of Fire kills her.

Neither of those stop her ability. Bowing her doesn't stop her from most likely winning the conflict.

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Just now, Soshi Nimue said:

Its not hate.  I wouldn't say Unicorn players hate their characters, but I sure do believe they want them to be better - and hope future cards will be more promising.

For Shame is not mediocre against her, it is a hard counter.  You either bow her negating 6 POL, or cut her power in half and turn her ability to crap for 0 fate and 1 card.  Kachiko cost 5+ fate and 1 card...  Even if you count that you rush-passed the Dynasty phase that's still 0 fate and 1 card to cut her down or bow her out.  I don't think she works for that "dropbears" play style...

You can either argue that she gets extra fate, in which case Ring of Fire is a strong counter - OR you can argue that she's a conflict character and thus only popping in during the relevant conflict, in which case For Shame shuts her down.  Both ends aren't so great.  3 Glory as a Scorpion is not a good thing...  I'm sure as a Phoenix player you know that considering dishonor + SH effect is one of the great Phoenix plays.  You could reduce her to 1 POL when dishonored, which completely negates her ability since it only effects characters with lower POL...

Even Tsukune can sit there at 0/0 and claim 2 ring effects a turn...  Kachiko dishonored won't do much of anything.  While Illusionists can help, that is basically the only card in Scorpion that can.  Most of the time Court Games, Ring of Fire, and other effects are used to dishonor the opponent.  Typically my characters just stay dishonored because the Illusionists is just 1 card, and a focused strategy shutting my opponent down can mean more.

Can someone explain how For Shame is a hard counter to her, but not every other single character involved in a challenge? How is it more of a hard counter to her than any other high cost character? Except it's less of a counter because she still gets to remove the opponent's best character they put in to the challenge? And you can potentially try to get your opponent to use For Shame before you put her in to play? I just don't get this logic. 

It's the same with people arguing that the opponent gets to use some form of control before she can use her ability. On attack, there is literally no difference if you had attacked with another character, the opponent is still going to get first go. You can argue it's a weakness on defence, except you can still play her before they initiate the challenge if you really want to be 100% sure to use her ability.  Being able to ambush in characters is essentially NEVER a bad thing, and is often absolutely game winning. If you're sitting on five fate, does the opponent use their control cards on what's on the board, or do they wait in case you play Kachiko? Either way, you're probably getting a good deal on it. 

 

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1 hour ago, Daigotsu Steve said:

Unless you're bringing her in with some fate or putting additional resources into her, you can use her effect once(which is basically a better Outwit), and you can defend a province or crack a province. Thats true of everyone but most characters in the game aren't nearly as costly as she is.

Kachiko doesn't strike me as the character you want to run out there without fate.

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1 hour ago, Abyss said:

Can someone explain how For Shame is a hard counter to her, but not every other single character involved in a challenge? How is it more of a hard counter to her than any other high cost character? Except it's less of a counter because she still gets to remove the opponent's best character they put in to the challenge?

Because using for shame on her either effectively neuters her power(since she needs to target lower Pol people), or it is -6 pol if you choose to bow her instead of dishonor her. For Shame on Shoju for example is still probably a cracked province and/or a dead guy. For Shame on Tsukune means a bowed Tsukune lol but they still get two rings. 

It just is fundamentally more painful to FS her than any other Scorpion I can think of off the top of my head, by some margin.

 

1 hour ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Kachiko doesn't strike me as the character you want to run out there without fate.

I agree. Thus making her more expensive and worse to play.

The more we talk about her the more disappointed I get and the more of a complete coaster she looks like right now. Granted; in future the Scorp beatdown deck she is built for could be good, but I'm actually pretty gutted Kachiko is an expensive conflict character fatty that doesnt really work with dishonor very well.

Edited by Daigotsu Steve

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The worst result is only a 3 point swing. Which is still pretty good and also comes with card advantage as she sticks around and their event doesn't. 

Also Scorpion has tons of ways to counter it in the first place.

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6 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Being a conflict character actually makes her easier to play with more fate on her.  

For clarifications sake, what I meant is that you can know what your flops are and play forward into those. Make a plan to defend a province and use the fate or two that you banked to play out that Hiroue. Her being conflict side is a double edged sword cause your opponent doesnt know when you can play her, but neither can you.

Id love to be proven wrong but I think that IF she gets played she's gonna be most commonly seen as a spicy one of to smash an unsuspecting stronghold.

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1 hour ago, HamHamJ2 said:

Neither of those stop her ability. Bowing her doesn't stop her from most likely winning the conflict.

A bowed Kachiko isn't going to win many conflicts...  She'll probably tie out, bowing to For Shame and then sending the defender home.

1 hour ago, Abyss said:

Can someone explain how For Shame is a hard counter to her, but not every other single character involved in a challenge? How is it more of a hard counter to her than any other high cost character? Except it's less of a counter because she still gets to remove the opponent's best character they put in to the challenge? And you can potentially try to get your opponent to use For Shame before you put her in to play? I just don't get this logic. 

If Kachiko is dishonored her POL is only a 3.  Her ability is to send a character with lower POL home from the conflict, and bow them.  This means she can only target a 2 POL character...  The Crane stronghold can bow a 2 POL character every turn...  OR you bow her losing 6 POL in the current conflict.  Sure you can send home their best guy, but -6 POL is a LOT.

The 3 Glory is a real bad thing for Scorpion characters.  Even 2 Glory makes characters questionable since self-dishonoring is a thing in Scorpion.  This compounds the issue with Kachiko as her ability references her own POL stat, so anything that cuts POL stat cuts her ability...

26 minutes ago, HamHamJ2 said:

The worst result is only a 3 point swing. Which is still pretty good and also comes with card advantage as she sticks around and their event doesn't. 

Also Scorpion has tons of ways to counter it in the first place.

The best case is a 3 point swing in favor of your opponent, which is great for just 1 card 0 fate - and you don't build card advantage because you played her from your hand so the card count is 1 card for 1 card, your opponent's characters were played from provinces.  If you took the 3 point swing that means you dishonored her, so while she sticks around she is still a bad investment.  The bow is probably the better choice if you put fate on her, which makes it a -6 point swing for 1 card 0 fate.  Playing a character from your hand can be great, but it can also be bad - in the case of Kachiko I feel it will be bad.

Focusing on playing conflict characters from hand is specifically BAD for hand advantage, which is one of the biggest advantages in this game.  You don't have to bid any honor to refill your dynasty cards, and you can freely discard to cycle them each turn.  Your hand is a precious commodity, you should focus on spilling as few cards from there as you can each turn to build that advantage over your opponent.

Edited by Soshi Nimue

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Do you know what I like most about Kachiko?

That half of the people here think she’s good and the other half think she’s awful. That means we’re seeing two different trends regarding tactics and deckbuilding, and that’s very, very good for the game. 

One of my biggest fears with this LCG was that, given that everybody has the same access to the same cards, we were gonna see the same decks again and again, the moment one of them is proved better than the rest. 

So discussions like this one makes me happy. The fact that people have so opposed views in the way the game should be played makes me happy. 

And hey, Kachiko’s role, supposedly, is to sow discord amongst people that otherwise could be getting along well, so I guess we could say she’s being successful so far!:P

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11 hours ago, HamHamJ2 said:

Such as? I can't think of anything that can do that consistently.

Off the top of my head there is For shame!, Court Games, Captive Audiance, Admit Defeat, Mirumoto's Fury, Way of the Crab, Cloud the Mind, Rout,and so on. 

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Everything just listed can affect any card, and the 5 cost characters that other people have to play are bought in Dynasty, so they're on the board ready to be targeted the entire turn. One of her biggest strengths about the cards is that she is a conflict character, which allows her to be played after opponents have used cards from their hand or depleted their fate reserve. 
Out of the 5 cost characters released so far, who is in your top 3 and why? Do they escape all the same situations that have been mentioned?

Edited by Silverfox13

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32 minutes ago, Silverfox13 said:

Everything just listed can affect any card, and the 5 cost characters that other people have to play are bought in Dynasty, so they're on the board ready to be targeted the entire turn. One of her biggest strengths about the cards is that she is a conflict character, which allows her to be played after opponents have used cards from their hand or depleted their fate reserve. 
Out of the 5 cost characters released so far, who is in your top 3 and why? Do they escape all the same situations that have been mentioned?

If you're reserving 5+ fate during a conflict you probably aren't baiting out your opponent's strongest cards.  This was the biggest thing I noticed when I tried out the Dropbears deck.  I would pass fast and have a ton of fate! But my opponent didn't have any reason to extend themselves until I played characters anyway, and then I was down hand advantage since I played characters from my hand rather than provinces, and I still had to spend down for characters.

If there was actually an option to do something besides still buy characters then it might go somewhere - but you need to buy characters.  Without characters you can't boost them for defense, and you have to play them down before a conflict to be able to attack anyway...  Its not like a Blue deck in Magic where you're saving mana for a counter spell, or a debuff and might forgo creature cards for the turn.  You need characters in L5R no matter what deck type you are doing - and if you aren't buying them from your Dynasty you're sacrificing hand advantage to play them from Conflict.

There's no way to cheat the cost either.  You're still paying 5 fate for her, and she isn't worth any more than that.  Any argument that she is "effectively cheaper" because you pass quicker in Dynasty is countered by the fact that you also spend a card from your hand, sacrificing hand advantage.

Some Conflict characters are great because they can be a big surprise, and have a big effect.  Unassuming Yojimbo can be a good drop because she has covert.  If you've had 2-3 conflicts already that Covert might let her run in unopposed against your opponent to break a province.  Ishiken Initiate was great for me in the same way - use her after a long turn that had 3 conflicts / ring claims.  Everything is bowed out on both sides, but I've managed to reserve 2 fate by playing shrewdly so that I can drop her down as a 4/4 to walk into almost any province unopposed and breaking!

Kachiko is not that type of card.  She costs 5, and while she can break a province on her own...  saving 5 fate that long is a tall order.  Even Unassuming Yojimbo is expensive at 3 cost...  Ishiken Initiate is the type of character you want for that.  2 cost and province breaking - a nice surprise for your opponent.  You aren't going to surprise them banking 5 fate.

Edited by Soshi Nimue

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Man I think there's a lot of haters inflitrated in scorpions clan... First that many posts complaining about getting seeker role, now is Kachiko.. 

People come and curse the card as a terrible one before playing it.. I can see a lot of advantages of being a conflict char, as many said you can pass first now she costs 4, you can play her after the void conflict was declared, and you have the control when and IF is worth playing her..

Maybe 3 kachiko is too much, run 2..

The only real disavantage I see is she costs one conflict card.. Ok, scorpions stronghold pratically grants you one extra draw per turn..

And she have a powerfull ability, uni will declare war against the empire for a char like her..

 

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50 minutes ago, Soshi Nimue said:

If you're reserving 5+ fate during a conflict you probably aren't baiting out your opponent's strongest cards.  This was the biggest thing I noticed when I tried out the Dropbears deck.  I would pass fast and have a ton of fate! But my opponent didn't have any reason to extend themselves until I played characters anyway, and then I was down hand advantage since I played characters from my hand rather than provinces, and I still had to spend down for characters.

If there was actually an option to do something besides still buy characters then it might go somewhere - but you need to buy characters.  Without characters you can't boost them for defense, and you have to play them down before a conflict to be able to attack anyway...  Its not like a Blue deck in Magic where you're saving mana for a counter spell, or a debuff and might forgo creature cards for the turn.  You need characters in L5R no matter what deck type you are doing - and if you aren't buying them from your Dynasty you're sacrificing hand advantage to play them from Conflict.

There's no way to cheat the cost either.  You're still paying 5 fate for her, and she isn't worth any more than that.  Any argument that she is "effectively cheaper" because you pass quicker in Dynasty is countered by the fact that you also spend a card from your hand, sacrificing hand advantage.

Some Conflict characters are great because they can be a big surprise, and have a big effect.  Unassuming Yojimbo can be a good drop because she has covert.  If you've had 2-3 conflicts already that Covert might let her run in unopposed against your opponent to break a province.  Ishiken Initiate was great for me in the same way - use her after a long turn that had 3 conflicts / ring claims.  Everything is bowed out on both sides, but I've managed to reserve 2 fate by playing shrewdly so that I can drop her down as a 4/4 to walk into almost any province unopposed and breaking!

Kachiko is not that type of card.  She costs 5, and while she can break a province on her own...  saving 5 fate that long is a tall order.  Even Unassuming Yojimbo is expensive at 3 cost...  Ishiken Initiate is the type of character you want for that.  2 cost and province breaking - a nice surprise for your opponent.  You aren't going to surprise them banking 5 fate.

So your argument looks to be "you have to buy characters", I can't argue with that, but everyone is buying characters, so I don't see your point.
You seem to be worried about cost a lot, but you have to buy a character anyways out of Dynasty, so I don't see the logic here. On top of that you can Ambush her and a 1 cost character into play for 3. 
I really wish the arguments about cards didn't revolve around the best and or worst case scenarios. 

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5 minutes ago, L5RBr said:

Man I think there's a lot of haters inflitrated in scorpions clan... First that many posts complaining about getting seeker role, now is Kachiko.. 

People come and curse the card as a terrible one before playing it.. I can see a lot of advantages of being a conflict char, as many said you can pass first now she costs 4, you can play her after the void conflict was declared, and you have the control when and IF is worth playing her..

Maybe 3 kachiko is too much, run 2..

The only real disavantage I see is she costs one conflict card.. Ok, scorpions stronghold pratically grants you one extra draw per turn..

And she have a powerfull ability, uni will declare war against the empire for a char like her..

 

And it's not like they have a Secret Cache they can dig into...

... and Unicorn will declare war against the empire as a matter of course. :P 

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24 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:

... and Unicorn will declare war against the empire as a matter of course. :P 

Unless of course the name of the horse is the famous Mr. Ed!  :P

Seriously, when I heard that Kachiko was a conflict character, I was planning on giving her a noble steed and some fancy glasses and just having her usurp Altsanarai as Champ.  Then I saw there was no influence on her so I suppose I'll just have to dress the Goblin Sneak up in a Magnificent Kimono.

 

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1 hour ago, Silverfox13 said:

So your argument looks to be "you have to buy characters", I can't argue with that, but everyone is buying characters, so I don't see your point.
You seem to be worried about cost a lot, but you have to buy a character anyways out of Dynasty, so I don't see the logic here. On top of that you can Ambush her and a 1 cost character into play for 3. 
I really wish the arguments about cards didn't revolve around the best and or worst case scenarios. 

Yes - you have to buy characters.  Do you want to take them from the 4 completely refreshed provinces each turn?  Or the hand you have to bid honor for?

Yes - cost is important.  If you ambush her in you're saving 2 fate but now costing 2 cards.  You can only do this after the conflict is declared so you're either bringing her into defense, or you had to have a character out first to declare your attack anyway.

I don't think these are worst cases - there is no case in which Kachiko isn't costing you a card that any Dynasty character wouldn't have.  5 fate is a LOT to hold back...  You won't get much pressure ahead of dropping Kachiko since you put yourself that far behind to begin with...

The biggest thing missing is the option select - when you play Blue or Red in magic and forgo creature cards its because you've got a different game plan to deal with creatures.  What is the option that says you don't have to play Kachiko and can still put pressure on the board state?

Edited by Soshi Nimue

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1 minute ago, Soshi Nimue said:

Yes - you have to buy characters.  Do you want to take them from the 4 completely refreshed provinces each turn?  Or the hand you have to bid honor for?

Yes - cost is important.  If you ambush her in you're saving 2 fate but costing 1 more card and requiring both to be in hand.  You can only do this after the conflict is declared so you're either bringing her into defense, or you had to have a character out first to declare your attack anyway.

I don't think these are worst cases - there is no case in which Kachiko isn't costing you a card that any Dynasty character wouldn't have.  5 fate is a LOT to hold back...  You won't get much pressure ahead of dropping Kachiko since you put yourself that far behind to begin with...

The biggest thing missing is the option select - when you play Blue or Red in magic and forgo creature cards its because you've got a different game plan to deal with creatures.  What is the option that says you don't have to play Kachiko and can still put pressure on the board state?

So now, the argument is that I have to play cards from my hand? I was going to do that anyways. I don't find it hard to draw cards as Scorpion (or really any clan) if I want to. So don't see the argument there. I think that she is better than a lot of cards I could draw. 
You still seem to be hung up on her cost, but it's not much difference than flipping a Champion, and I see people buy those all the time. 
Is it perhaps that you have a hard time managing your own fate? Maybe she isn't right for people who can't manage their cards and fate, but that isn't an excuse to say she isn't good.
and I don't play or really like magic, and don't consider trying to match color icons to l5r is a great comparison.

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12 minutes ago, Silverfox13 said:

So now, the argument is that I have to play cards from my hand? I was going to do that anyways. I don't find it hard to draw cards as Scorpion (or really any clan) if I want to. So don't see the argument there. I think that she is better than a lot of cards I could draw. 
You still seem to be hung up on her cost, but it's not much difference than flipping a Champion, and I see people buy those all the time. 
Is it perhaps that you have a hard time managing your own fate? Maybe she isn't right for people who can't manage their cards and fate, but that isn't an excuse to say she isn't good.
and I don't play or really like magic, and don't consider trying to match color icons to l5r is a great comparison.

If you have 4 dynasty cards, and 4 cards in hand, and you want to bid high and dump your hand for actions and characters rather than utilize those dynasty cards, that's your choice...  I doubt it will get you far.  Go ahead and try that style, see how it comes back...

None of that overcomes the fact that 3 Glory is a liability for Scorpion, especially on a courtier.  It doesn't stop her ability from referencing her POL meaning being dishonored kills her ability And her stats.

Shoju doesn't have this problem.  If he's dishonored he's still a powerhouse and province breaker.  His ability doesn't care if he's dishonored.  Neither does Tsukune's, or Altansarnai's.  Kachiko is pretty unique in her ability caring what her stats are making her especially susceptible to being dishonored.

Edited by Soshi Nimue

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