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Stormbourne

force and destiny universal tree

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jal shey

careers: astrogation, mechanics, negotiation, charm

Major upgrades

Force weave x3. 10/15/20

may dedicate force dice equal ranks in force weave to imbue and item with a force power (see rules for more detail)

Force rating x2. 20/25

Master weave x1. 25

when imbuing an item may dedicate additional force dice to increase the wielders force rating while using the imbued power

Smooth talker x2. 10/20

Sense emotions x2. 10/15

Gear head x2. 5/15

Mental tools x1. 15

 

force weave rules

Before the session starts force user must announce that they are attempting to imbue an item. that force user then dedicates force dice equal to the force power rating (the amount of force dice needed to use the power), for the entire session or longer (GM's discretion).

After the designated time has elapsed the force user then makes a daunting (4 purple) astrogation check upgraded by the force power's rating (e.g. protect = 1 purple 3 red, heal = 3 purple 1 red) + 1 blue for the each of the players undedicated force dice

A success means that the base power can be activated, while advantages say what upgrades are available (advantages cannot be spent on upgrades the force user does not have).

Each item may only be imbued with one power at any one time.

Edited by Stormbourne
Added more skills to jal shey tree. Amended force weave rules

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Very likely intentional even if disagreeable. I saw shortly after F&D was released the theory behind this is one of a PC starts in Edge, gets recruited for AoR, and ends in F&D if they pick the force sensitive upgrades from the first two systems. The Exile is pretty useless all things considered, I've never played the Emergent but it seems a decent degree better. Having a universal for F&D doesn't offer any benefit since all the classes are force sensitive.

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4 hours ago, ASCI Blue said:

Having a universal for F&D doesn't offer any benefit since all the classes are force sensitive.

Weird idea: an universal spec that requires you to have Force Rating 1 and takes it away from you. In exchange you get something else cheaply, like extra trained skills , and lots of basic upgrades like grit, etc.

In effect it would allow you to play any F &D spec as not Force sensitive.

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5 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Weird idea: an universal spec that requires you to have Force Rating 1 and takes it away from you. In exchange you get something else cheaply, like extra trained skills , and lots of basic upgrades like grit, etc.

In effect it would allow you to play any F &D spec as not Force sensitive.

No thank you. 

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9 hours ago, Luahk said:

I get having a universal tree in this book also. Seems a strange omission.

This got discussed with Sam Stewart during the O66 podcast episode focusing on F&D's release.  Most of it was focused around the lack of a "Jedi Padawan" type of specialization, but also branched out into the lack of a universal spec in the book.

Sam's rationale was that the universal specs included in EotE and AoR covered something that was generally missing from the core careers, namely PCs able to use the Force, with AoR including the Recruit universal spec so that those PCs who started in careers that aren't combat-focused have an option to snag a specialization that bolsters their combat prowess without having to pay the extra XP for a non-career spec.

At the time that F&D was being written, there wasn't any concept for a Force and Destiny game that demanded a universal spec.  It's very much the design intent that the Lightsaber Form specs aren't universal, so that learning how to best make use of a lightsaber (something that generally should be a rare and almost lost art) isn't something that just "anyone" can do on a whim.

Given there's six universal specializations in the upcoming Dawn of Rebellion sourcebook, it remains to be seen if the F&D crowd will get something that caters to Force user PCs or not.

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4 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

There's already two separate core rulebooks in print for folks that don't want to play Force users in Star Wars.

 

In some ways I'd rather have some of the FnD trees to compliment a nonFS character build from the other 'systems'... investigator, teacher, navigator and sentry off the top of my head so an earlier post of a universal that requires and takes away a FR sounds interesting.

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14 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

This got discussed with Sam Stewart during the O66 podcast episode focusing on F&D's release.  Most of it was focused around the lack of a "Jedi Padawan" type of specialization, but also branched out into the lack of a universal spec in the book.

Sam's rationale was that the universal specs included in EotE and AoR covered something that was generally missing from the core careers, namely PCs able to use the Force, with AoR including the Recruit universal spec so that those PCs who started in careers that aren't combat-focused have an option to snag a specialization that bolsters their combat prowess without having to pay the extra XP for a non-career spec.

At the time that F&D was being written, there wasn't any concept for a Force and Destiny game that demanded a universal spec.  It's very much the design intent that the Lightsaber Form specs aren't universal, so that learning how to best make use of a lightsaber (something that generally should be a rare and almost lost art) isn't something that just "anyone" can do on a whim.

Given there's six universal specializations in the upcoming Dawn of Rebellion sourcebook, it remains to be seen if the F&D crowd will get something that caters to Force user PCs or not.

Do you not agree about shii cho though? 

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I was a bit torn but thinking of it I come to the following conclusion:

At first Shii Cho does sound agreeablbe in matters of a general tree, as it is more of a Fencing tree (for longswords) than an actual lightsaber form and has been the basic level everyone in the order learned first. However... the order is dead for one and for the other, basic is not what the specialisations are about. Infact in the days of the order, everyone learned the basics of all the 6 forms, while (order or not) the F&D specs are about a specialist, someone who goes about mastering one particular form.

Shii Cho is basic, yes, but a Shii Cho master is a completely different thing, same as a learner of Niman infact lacks in sword technique, a master of Niman however is somewhat the opposite of that and likely to be closer to lightsaber mastery than most other specialists.

And not to forget, the forms build upon the other forms in a certain order. So all forms already include some Shii Cho.

So narratively, Shii Cho is general in the way that it is already included in the other forms. Conceptionally this is not what the Shii Cho Knight is about, as it is about mastering the form.

So no... as things stand, it should not be a general tree.

(I am, on a completely different page, thinking that every tree should be general, but that's a different story).

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2 hours ago, [Arkas] said:

(I am, on a completely different page, thinking that every tree should be general, but that's a different story).

Do you mean every lightsaber tree, or all the trees in the game?

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10 hours ago, Luahk said:

Do you not agree about shii cho though? 

Nope, I'm 100% on board with Shii-Cho Knight being a career specialization.

The core problem with trying to force Shii-Cho into being a universal specialization is that no PC can actually select it as a starting specialization, since a PC's initial spec has to be one attached to their career.  And per their very nature, a universal specialization isn't part of a career.

So by trying to shoehorn Shii-Cho into the role of a universal spec, you've just made it impossible for a player who wants to build a PC that focuses on using Shii-Cho unable to do so unless they fork over an extra 20 XP at character creation, something a PC that chooses any other Form spec doesn't have to do.

While the lore of Shii-Cho does suggest that it's the foundation for all the other Lightsaber Forms (at least in Legends), that doesn't mean that there's not advanced Shii-Cho usage.  Shii-Cho fundamentals/basics = simply having ranks in Lightsaber skill, while taking the Shii-Cho Knight specialization equals advanced study of the Form beyond the rudimentary basics that all Padawans were taught.

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59 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Nope, I'm 100% on board with Shii-Cho Knight being a career specialization.

The core problem with trying to force Shii-Cho into being a universal specialization is that no PC can actually select it as a starting specialization, since a PC's initial spec has to be one attached to their career.  And per their very nature, a universal specialization isn't part of a career.

So by trying to shoehorn Shii-Cho into the role of a universal spec, you've just made it impossible for a player who wants to build a PC that focuses on using Shii-Cho unable to do so unless they fork over an extra 20 XP at character creation, something a PC that chooses any other Form spec doesn't have to do.

While the lore of Shii-Cho does suggest that it's the foundation for all the other Lightsaber Forms (at least in Legends), that doesn't mean that there's not advanced Shii-Cho usage.  Shii-Cho fundamentals/basics = simply having ranks in Lightsaber skill, while taking the Shii-Cho Knight specialization equals advanced study of the Form beyond the rudimentary basics that all Padawans were taught.

So for you shii cho knight us a step beyond basic useage? Assuming you complete the tree. 

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5 hours ago, Eoen said:

Do you mean every lightsaber tree, or all the trees in the game?

That would be sidetracking too much. In short, I am, in general, not very fond of classes as they are usually overly restrictive or just unecessary... but let's not derail this thread by delving into this topic.

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While EotE and AoR both have universal force trees both of them are kind of basic just allowing the player to use the few force powers the books allow, this wouldn't really be fitting with F&D, and since F&D allows for the same level of "physical" (for lack of a better word) activity as the others having the reverse wouldn't work either.

Hence why i went with the secertive and advanced force specialization of jal shey, both because players can't start out as one and because their powers of using the force to upgrade things hasn't been explored

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9 hours ago, Stormbourne said:

Hence why i went with the secertive and advanced force specialization of jal shey, both because players can't start out as one and because their powers of using the force to upgrade things hasn't been explored

Not quite true. Artisan has the Imbue Item talent, Armorer has both Imbue Item and Reinforce Item. Granted, these don't offer permanent bonuses, but Mystic is getting the Alchemist, which suggests we may get that in the future.

Based on what I was able to reference about the Jal Shey, I could create a pretty spot-on character with a variety of specializations. Depending on whether I want to focus on the negotiation or the crafting element, I'd start with Sage or Artisan, and splash a mix of Arbiter, Armorer, or Advisor, and maybe a little bit of Teacher depending.

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47 minutes ago, Blackbird888 said:

Not quite true. Artisan has the Imbue Item talent, Armorer has both Imbue Item and Reinforce Item. Granted, these don't offer permanent bonuses, but Mystic is getting the Alchemist, which suggests we may get that in the future.

true i actually forgot about those abilities, but those are more along the lines of "give this item a temporary HP" while force weave is like teaching a item a force power that allows any one to use it (if they meet the force power rating)

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22 hours ago, Luahk said:

So for you shii cho knight us a step beyond basic useage? Assuming you complete the tree. 

Just entering Shii-Cho Knight is going beyond "basic usage" of a lightsaber.

To me, "basic usage" = "I have ranks in the Lightsaber skill" and that's all you've got.

Gaining talents such as Parry (and Reflect if you use an alternate version of Shii-Cho Knight in your games as I do) and Multiple Opponents, that's going beyond "basic usage" and going more into focused training in Shii-Cho, even if there isn't a 'Shii-Cho Technique' talent.

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18 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Just entering Shii-Cho Knight is going beyond "basic usage" of a lightsaber.

To me, "basic usage" = "I have ranks in the Lightsaber skill" and that's all you've got.

Gaining talents such as Parry (and Reflect if you use an alternate version of Shii-Cho Knight in your games as I do) and Multiple Opponents, that's going beyond "basic usage" and going more into focused training in Shii-Cho, even if there isn't a 'Shii-Cho Technique' talent.

I always try to, where possible, equate it to real life personally.
In real life you can have a blackbelt. That more relates to your education than skill. For example you can have children who don't take martial arts stupendously seriously nor are they expert fighters who have junior versions of the belts and you can have seniors who have the knowledge. The tree represents your knowledge..your skill is the yellow dice. Just because you have the tree does not make you a master or a particularly skilled user you just understand it at depth. Not that I don't get what you're saying I just don't view it that way.

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8 minutes ago, Luahk said:

I always try to, where possible, equate it to real life personally.

To quote Yoda, "that is why you fail."

This game is not meant in any way to replicate reality.  Frankly, under your logic, the Martial Artist specialization from the Bounty Hunter career book should itself be a universal specialization simply because as you see it, being a black belt isn't that much different than a simply brawler with no formal training.

Ultimately, it's a division that's caused due to careers and specs being a variation of a class-based system.

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Just now, Donovan Morningfire said:

To quote Yoda, "that is why you fail."

This game is not meant in any way to replicate reality.  Frankly, under your logic, the Martial Artist specialization from the Bounty Hunter career book should itself be a universal specialization simply because as you see it, being a black belt isn't that much different than a simply brawler with no formal training.

Ultimately, it's a division that's caused due to careers and specs being a variation of a class-based system.

 Safe to say you missed the point I was getting at in general...but yes I know it's a division based of that. Same way you can teach boxing in real life to someone that weighs 125 lbs and someone that weighs 280 lbs. It doesn't necessarily suit either one more. However in the universe Shii-cho is a foundation and just because a particularly excellent saber wielder can take it a level beyond that doesn't change that is what it is.

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Lightsaber specializations are as much personal philosophies as they are fighting techniques. A Warrior who favors straightforward and adaptable fighting techniques will likely prefer Shii-Cho to more specialized and complex fighting styles.

In context with the setting, Shii-Cho is as rare and esoteric as any other lightsaber form. It makes sense in this era that the game was designed to play in that Shii-Cho is on the same level as the other forms. A character, without the lifelong training and guidance of the Jedi traditions, may jump headlong into the more complex forms without taking Shii-Cho first.

Besides, Shii-Cho's lore as the foundation of the other forms matches with its the talents it has. It's three signature talents, Natural Blademaster, Sarlacc Sweep and Multiple Opponents, all contribute to a lightsaber wielder and don't conflict with the talents of the other forms.

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1 hour ago, Luahk said:

 Safe to say you missed the point I was getting at in general...but yes I know it's a division based of that. Same way you can teach boxing in real life to someone that weighs 125 lbs and someone that weighs 280 lbs. It doesn't necessarily suit either one more. However in the universe Shii-cho is a foundation and just because a particularly excellent saber wielder can take it a level beyond that doesn't change that is what it is.

Frankly, you're too set in your view to even consider what others have to say, so really not any point in continuing talking to you on the topic, as you're too bent on Shii-Cho in its entirety being "the generic ligthsaber combat style" as opposed to the dedicated combat art the full study of Shii-Cho would be.

You're too wrapped up in the notion that training in Shii-Cho is the same as basic self-defense training course or learning McDojo-style karate (good for exercise, not quite so good in a fight when the other guy knows what they're doing), when full study of Shii-Cho (i.e taking the Shii-Cho Knight specialization) is more akin to years of in-depth training in Muay Thai, Krav Maga, or Wing Chun Kung Fu.

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17 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Frankly, you're too set in your view to even consider what others have to say, so really not any point in continuing talking to you on the topic, as you're too bent on Shii-Cho in its entirety being "the generic ligthsaber combat style" as opposed to the dedicated combat art the full study of Shii-Cho would be.

You're too wrapped up in the notion that training in Shii-Cho is the same as basic self-defense training course or learning McDojo-style karate (good for exercise, not quite so good in a fight when the other guy knows what they're doing), when full study of Shii-Cho (i.e taking the Shii-Cho Knight specialization) is more akin to years of in-depth training in Muay Thai, Krav Maga, or Wing Chun Kung Fu.

Still not what I'm saying. 

 

53 minutes ago, Blackbird888 said:

Lightsaber specializations are as much personal philosophies as they are fighting techniques. A Warrior who favors straightforward and adaptable fighting techniques will likely prefer Shii-Cho to more specialized and complex fighting styles.

In context with the setting, Shii-Cho is as rare and esoteric as any other lightsaber form. It makes sense in this era that the game was designed to play in that Shii-Cho is on the same level as the other forms. A character, without the lifelong training and guidance of the Jedi traditions, may jump headlong into the more complex forms without taking Shii-Cho first.

Besides, Shii-Cho's lore as the foundation of the other forms matches with its the talents it has. It's three signature talents, Natural Blademaster, Sarlacc Sweep and Multiple Opponents, all contribute to a lightsaber wielder and don't conflict with the talents of the other forms.

Which is why I would've thought it would be the universal here. As it's written it suits more the kit fitso level person than something that everyone should learn as a gateway. 

I also don't play in the intended era of the games setting. 

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