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TheUnsullied

Weekly Skirmish Strategy Week 1(Jabba's Palace)

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1 hour ago, TheUnsullied said:

One specific reason I like the red side is when I'm running a melee centric list. I've be mostly been running ePigs x 2 and eJets x 2 and adding Terro in to finish the list off. If you look at the four red safe spots we've been talking about they have a much greater reach on round 2 to attack if you put 4 ePigs there. ...

Edit - for those looking at the new map Tvboy posted the four spots I'm talking about are H9, H10, I9, I10 for stashing melee units. The other safe spots on the blue side are F8, F11 and F12. 

Sorry, but... this doesn't make sense. F8 and F11 (what we've been calling blue's A and B spots) are exactly the same distance across the board as I9 and I10, so have exactly the same opportunity to advance in round 2; but they're (almost) completely safe from being shot at, whereas I9 and I10 can be shot from F12 (blue's D position).

Blue also has the option of G10 if he wants to advance further (as has already been mentioned - we've been calling it blue's C position), which has exactly the same round 2 melee opportunities as H9 and H10... but again it is (almost) completely safe from being shot at, whereas H9 and H10 can be shot by F12 (blue's D position). If you really need four squares for blue's melee figures, sure, take G9 as well - the enemy might get a shot at you, but that's no worse than the equivalent red square, so red still isn't better.

In terms of movement it's a symmetrical map in this area. None of the red squares are better for movement than their blue equivalents. Anything red can do in terms of melee units, blue can do too if they want to, just by picking the "mirror" square. But for LOS it's strongly asymmetrical, and the red side of the board is more vulnerable to being shot at (which affects everyone, including melee units) and has worse fire arcs (which affects ranged units only).

No square on the red side of the board in the middle area offers better movement, LOS, or safety from the enemy's LOS than the blue side equivalent. Some of them are worse - which you might decide you don't care about for whatever reason (e.g. being confident you won't die in one shot, or not having the ability to shoot anyway so LOS doesn't matter, or a response to what your opponent does or what figures they have); but blue still has more and better options for positioning on turn one than red does.

Edited by Bitterman

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58 minutes ago, cnemmick said:

@tvboy any chance you can add the vertical impassable and blocking terrain lines that are in the middle of the map? Thanks!

Oops, I guess they must have gotten covered up by the grid. Here you go.

fDDjbHE.png

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Question: On the New Ownership mission (Stashes), Where is the best place to send Greedo round 1?

Do you send him to control the pit stash?

Send him to the middle stash?

Send him to the top stash? 

 

I like sending him to the pit but I feel like he loses his value when he is such a good threat to keep in on the action especially when my opponent can send a 2 cost alliance smuggler to contest.  If I send him to the top stash, it can bait the opponent to opening their door which could be a positive for me but I could lose him round 1 and potential 4 points controlling the stash. I usually never send him to the middle stash unless I can't afford to open my door round 1.

Just curious about how other people use him on this map, Thoughts? 

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23 minutes ago, reznoob said:

Question: On the New Ownership mission (Stashes), Where is the best place to send Greedo round 1?

Do you send him to control the pit stash?

Send him to the middle stash?

Send him to the top stash? 

 

I like sending him to the pit but I feel like he loses his value when he is such a good threat to keep in on the action especially when my opponent can send a 2 cost alliance smuggler to contest.  If I send him to the top stash, it can bait the opponent to opening their door which could be a positive for me but I could lose him round 1 and potential 4 points controlling the stash. I usually never send him to the middle stash unless I can't afford to open my door round 1.

Just curious about how other people use him on this map, Thoughts? 

I don't know that Greedo works best while controlling any stashes round 1. I think his 5(maybe 6 or 7 with Hera or Gideon)movement puts him in a really good place to get a shot off on a unit that won't have LoS to back to him and avoid the return fire he'd normally take. 

 

My preferred spot would be F12 but it all depends on where your opponent places figures. 

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1 hour ago, Bitterman said:

Sorry, but... this doesn't make sense. F8 and F11 (what we've been calling blue's A and B spots) are exactly the same distance across the board as I9 and I10, so have exactly the same opportunity to advance in round 2; but they're (almost) completely safe from being shot at, whereas I9 and I10 can be shot from F12 (blue's D position).

Blue also has the option of G10 if he wants to advance further (as has already been mentioned - we've been calling it blue's C position), which has exactly the same round 2 melee opportunities as H9 and H10... but again it is (almost) completely safe from being shot at, whereas H9 and H10 can be shot by F12 (blue's D position). If you really need four squares for blue's melee figures, sure, take G9 as well - the enemy might get a shot at you, but that's no worse than the equivalent red square, so red still isn't better.

In terms of movement it's a symmetrical map in this area. None of the red squares are better for movement than their blue equivalents. Anything red can do in terms of melee units, blue can do too if they want to, just by picking the "mirror" square. But for LOS it's strongly asymmetrical, and the red side of the board is more vulnerable to being shot at (which affects everyone, including melee units) and has worse fire arcs (which affects ranged units only).

No square on the red side of the board in the middle area offers better movement, LOS, or safety from the enemy's LOS than the blue side equivalent. Some of them are worse - which you might decide you don't care about for whatever reason (e.g. being confident you won't die in one shot, or not having the ability to shoot anyway so LOS doesn't matter, or a response to what your opponent does or what figures they have); but blue still has more and better options for positioning on turn one than red does.

H9, H10, I9 and I10 can easily get into the opponents hallways above the terminal and take shots on units hiding out there(especially with reach or 5 speed.) When you are playing a melee list on this map your opponent isn't going to necessarily move up very far round 1 because they have the advantage of range. These four spots can get you very deep towards their deployment zone. On the stash map they may be forced to come out towards you but on the crates mission they'll just pick you off one by one.  

 

F11 is the only one of blues safe spots that can take a shot up above the terminal where ranged units would be camping out for you. The other two aren't close enough. If your melee units aren't in striking range round 2 you can just get stalled out by an opponent reusing Gideon and 3PO while you waste important activations. 

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Thanks @TheUnsullied and all for the great discussion. I'm glad to see people using the maps that @ibsh and I built.

BTW, if you want to show a full map you can use the web versions I put up on GitHub: they're 10% of the download size of the printable images generally but largely indistinguishable when shown on a screen.  For example here's Jabba's Palace:

37-halfres.jpg

@Tvboy if you need access to the raw map data to make your gridded previews let me know. Thanks!

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There is a lot of super usefull stuff here. I really like the maps from TV-boy (and of course the team that keeps making the maps; Nick and Ibsh!)

Personally I prefer Excel and Google Drive, I made all the tournament maps (as well as Wave X and some others) in Google Sheets over time. Figured I might as well share it (note that it is view-only but you should be able to copy it to your own Google drive and make adjustments to your own version of the file). This is just so that we have more resources and I actually think the TV-Boy maps are more illustrative for the discussion on the forums (because with the terrain more visible, you can more easily zoom in to sections of the map and have a discussion). But for pre-analysis, I prefer the Excels.
It also includes a probabilities sheet which I have used extensively as well (it is very important to know what to expect for damage from your guys) which is how in the past I have commented on the probabilities of IG or Jedi Luke one-shotting certain figures. It is nowhere near complete, only having figures I was considering for Birmingham this year.
I used the IA attack calculator website to fill the sheet, so you could fill in more if you use that website.

I have also started on the 'sightlines' and positioning a while back on Nal Hutta (sadly didn't have time to do much more).
How that sheet works: on the left are the offensive plots. It shows 2 positions that are close/similar to show what area's you can hit from those positions. The purple position is leading. Area's purple can hit but green can't are slightly purple. Positions green can hit but purple can't are more green than the others.
On the right side are the 'where can I be hit from' plots. These work in tandem with the plots on the left, usually the safe hide-out that a normal 4 speed deployment can get to (so the offensive plots are usually at most 2 spaces from the 'safe' spots). Normal red means both purple and red position can be hit from the spot. purple means only the purple spot can be hit, darker red only the red spot can be hit.
My dream would be that someone would make an app or website that works like that: press a square and it shows what you have line of sight to, and another image with where you can be hit from (preferably with ranges, and to make it a really interesting tool, if you could add blocked squares (like figures) on there as well that would really make it next level).

These plots help most in the first few rounds, to know from where you can reach out and shoot (how much range you would need etc).
For Nal Hutta, to me the bottom deployment zone is vastly superior due to the sightlines. Blue has not a lot of places to hide and needs to move over half of the map to be able to shoot the (plenty) safe spots of red.
There are some more places on the map I'd like to do, but I am really busy with all sorts of stuff. I hope you find it usefull.
Without further ado:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15frXWD6guAuxS74ISK7sYSowij71hFMDEYeqSbk6yOw/edit?usp=sharing

 

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On 10/30/2017 at 0:02 PM, TheUnsullied said:

Good question. I very rarely open the door early when I'm playing Imperials because there is no way I can compete with the range of eRangers or eQuays. I'll just end up getting shredded to pieces. I generally try to open it later in the round with one set of Jets and move one of them towards the maze objective and one towards the pit. I rarely seen opponents in my area contesting or going for the objective at the top of the map(what we've been calling the main room) in the first round because it's such a vulnerable position. If they do contest it then it's normally with a activation towards the end of the round where they aren't as worried about getting blasted. 

Agreed. In fact, I like to bring my jets into the middle in order to make some sneaky moves through the difficult and blocked terrain. I feel like if I don't use this advantage, it's lights out. 

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On 10/30/2017 at 6:53 PM, nickv2002 said:

Thanks @TheUnsullied and all for the great discussion. I'm glad to see people using the maps that @ibsh and I built.

BTW, if you want to show a full map you can use the web versions I put up on GitHub: they're 10% of the download size of the printable images generally but largely indistinguishable when shown on a screen.  For example here's Jabba's Palace:

37-halfres.jpg

@Tvboy if you need access to the raw map data to make your gridded previews let me know. Thanks!

Ya these are great. I use them for all of my batreps. Thanks! 

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To sum up some of the things I've learned about in this thread and that I've learned from playing this map myself:

  • The three middle areas are this map's most important feature
    • Main Room - Open area inbetween both Deployment Zone doors
    • Center Stairwell - Maze-like area with walls, blocking and impassible terrain
    • Rancor Pit - Outside section behind a door, accessible by the trap door in the Main Room.
  • The Spoils of Crime scenario offers very little benefit for players who try to gather crates during the first 2 rounds of the game. It is nearly impossible to pick up 3 crates (and 6VPs) before the end of round 1 without putting those figures carrying the crates into danger.
  • For the New Ownership scenario, contesting the stashes are crucial. Avoid big-unit-versus-big-unit battles at stashes vs. IG-88 and Darth Vader. 
  • The first figure that enters the Rancor Pit first will likely be the target of at least one attack from hostile figures that follow. That first figure needs to be strong enough to survive the attack and prevent the opponent from securing control over all the objective points in the Pit.
  • The Blue Player seemingly has better positions for ranged attacks looking into the Center Stairwell than does the Red Player. This is due to the asymmetrical design of the area. The Red Player can utilize the middle blocking terrain for short range/melee units provided that the Red Player can activate those figures at the start of round 2.
  • The Blue Player has more freedom to decide whether to control the Main Room or the Center Stairwell for the start of round 2. The Red Player must read the Blue Player's plan and assert control of the other area. 
  • While it's important in every game, the player and figure that activates first on Round 2 is especially crucial to this map. Squad Swarm and Strength In Numbers are especially powerful.
  • If you don't make a "wheeee!" noise when a figure is moved from the trap door to the Rancor Pit, that figure suffers an additional STRAIN.

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On 10/30/2017 at 2:22 PM, Tvboy said:

fDDjbHE.png

I have a question due to the previous skirmish game I played. Can J11 take a shot at C10? I believe they drew LOS using J11 bottom right corner to C10 top corners.

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31 minutes ago, reznoob said:

I have a question due to the previous skirmish game I played. Can J11 take a shot at C10? I believe they drew LOS using J11 bottom right corner to C10 top corners.

Yeah, you can actually, as you say from the bottom right corner of J11 to the two top corners for C10. Range 8.

From that bottom right corner of J11, you can go up 1 and left 4 twice to get to the top left corner of c10, so the wall separating F11/G11 is not an issue. You then need a rise of up 2 left 7 to get to the top right corner of c10, and the blocking terrain at g10/h10 would only be an issue if you needed a rise higher than up 1 left 3. So you're all good to make that attack.

Edited by Fightwookies

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2 hours ago, ryanjamal said:

Yes you can. I never noticed these sight lines until this was pointed out. Crazy. 

-ryanjamal 

It's pretty interesting for the Clawdites that can snipe through figures and have a minimum range of 7. They don't do a lot of damage, but it might surprise your opponent that you take out his support in the back with that move! :)

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10 hours ago, ryanjamal said:

Yes you can. I never noticed these sight lines until this was pointed out. Crazy. 

-ryanjamal 

Wow I had no idea. Are there other "secret" sight lines on jabba's map which are also very useful? This spot can make nice long range surprise attacks. But it is also possible to shoot from c10 to j11.

Edited by Cloud 123

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Props to @Tvboy on the grids. That makes discussion much easier.

Jabba's is such a great map. I seem to find something new every time I look at it. It's diverse with the different areas (open main room/maze) which can be good for different play styles. Really need to sit down and play with all the LOS in that maze area. I've never really had a problem getting LOS to a figure that I wanted to attack, but I do love me some Greedo (GIA) and knowing some spots where they can't fire back would be helpful.

A couple other LOS I hadn't noticed before is from I-7 >D-11, and J6 >E9. Both of those would not have return LOS and would not trigger Greedo's (GIA) Slow on the Draw.

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