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20 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

There already are primers. Look under the material for the LCG.

Stories from the setting are not primers if they don't explain the backstory.

Yes you can get a sense of what is going on right now, but not a sense of how they got there or why things are the way they are.

That's what a setting primer is for. 

The Battletech primer I am talking about take you from present day (at the time of publication) and brings you up to 30##. 

That is the point, it gives you a sense of how the setting got to where it is. Not just what's going on right now.

And does so in a small booklet that is ease and quick to read. 

Edited by tenchi2a

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On 3/26/2018 at 2:29 AM, tenchi2a said:

But that if you are going after a group that doesn't have the background with the setting then you need to provide a little more info to get them involved.

Now does it have to be in the Beta book, no.

but a primer PDF like Battletech does in their universe book would help new players to understand Rokugan.

So what you are saying is that FFG should provide a primer .pdf so new groups can start playing already using the beta rules? The unfinished rules they might still be changing now? Let’s just say I can see some drawbacks to that plan too, aside from the benefits.

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4 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

So what you are saying is that FFG should provide a primer .pdf so new groups can start playing already using the beta rules? The unfinished rules they might still be changing now? Let’s just say I can see some drawbacks to that plan too, aside from the benefits.

I not sure what you mean here, telling people the history of Rokugan will not change whether they can play the beta one way or the other. 

I'm not sure you understand what I mean by a primer. 

Why would giving a primer mean they could play the game without the final rule?

If they have the beta they can play the game with or without a primer.

The point is, if you are trying to get new players it helps to give them the background to draw then in.

I would not pick up a RPG if I did not know the background because I would not know if I would like the background.

 

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8 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

Why would giving a primer mean they could play the game without the final rule?

If they have the beta they can play the game with or without a primer.

The point is, if you are trying to get new players it helps to give them the background to draw then in.

I would not pick up a RPG if I did not know the background because I would not know if I would like the background.

So... they can play using the beta rules without setting primer, but if you were them you wouldn’t? This is a semantics thing? If I’d said “FFG should make a primer available so new players would start playing”, that would have been better than “can start playing”?

If they’re interested in playing L5R using the new edition and found their way to the beta rules, they probably managed to find out the setting will be largely 1st edition’s albeit with a number of tweaks. Such people are probably active on this very forum too. And that kind of info is not hard to find on the internet to begin with, and can be asked about here. 

Edited by nameless ronin

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4 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

So... they can play using the beta rules without setting primer, but if you were them you wouldn’t? This is a semantics thing? If I’d said “FFG should make a primer available so new players would start playing”, that would have been better than “can start playing”?

The thing is that I have all the old books. So I to an existent know the background to the setting.

Now I don't know how much of the old setting up to the current date they are going to use, but I still have an idea what lead to this point if they don't go changing the past.

But from what I have seen they are looking to bring in a new group of players with this game, more power to them its their game now.

But if you are going to try to bring in new players its hard to do so when they don't know or understand the setting.

Its like if I was tried to sell you the Shatterzone RPG and said here are the rule minus all the background material, how would you know what type of game it was besides sci-fi.

The rules could be great, but you may not be into dystopian sci-fi with a high mortality rate.

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Things in shatterzone you might want to know but have no background for.

1. why are only three races given citizenship?

2. what is the consortium?

3. what is the Shatterzone and why is it so important to be the name of the game 

4. etc.

 

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12 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

The thing is that I have all the old books. So I to an existent know the background to the setting.

Now I don't know how much of the old setting up to the current date they are going to use, but I still have an idea what lead to this point if they don't go changing the past.

But from what I have seen they are looking to bring in a new group of players with this game, more power to them its their game now.

But if you are going to try to bring in new players its hard to do so when they don't know or understand the setting.

Its like if I was tried to sell you the Shatterzone RPG and said here are the rule minus all the background material, how would you know what type of game it was besides sci-fi.

The rules could be great, but you may not be into dystopian sci-fi with a high mortality rate.

So you think FFG is trying to bring in new players based on the beta rules already? Because right now, nobody’s trying to sell anybody anything. When FFG starts to sell the new L5R, the core book will have a setting primer in it.

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32 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

So you think FFG is trying to bring in new players based on the beta rules already? Because right now, nobody’s trying to sell anybody anything. When FFG starts to sell the new L5R, the core book will have a setting primer in it.

Well they sure are not tying hard to appeal to the old guard of the game.

And again if that is there choice then have at it. They own the IP they can do what they want.

That said if you had never played any of the original games and you saw the L5R 5th edition on the shelf at your local store would you just pick it up and buy it?

Most would not, that is why if they are trying to get new blood then they would have to get those people to go out to the store for that book.

But that's just my thoughts on this if you think that everyone is going to go out to their local store and blind purchase it then more power to you.

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35 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

Well they sure are not tying hard to appeal to the old guard of the game.

And again if that is there choice then have at it. They own the IP they can do what they want.

That said if you had never played any of the original games and you saw the L5R 5th edition on the shelf at your local store would you just pick it up and buy it?

Most would not, that is why if they are trying to get new blood then they would have to get those people to go out to the store for that book.

But that's just my thoughts on this if you think that everyone is going to go out to their local store and blind purchase it then more power to you.

First, I wouldn’t see the 5th edition on the shelf at my local store until it’s released, which currently it isn't. Second, unless you’re arguing releasing a primer .pdf with info that can be found all over the internet by anyone who so far might have stumbled across this beta is indispensible for attracting new players, you’re not really making your point.

You think they’re not trying to appeal to the old guard? I’d say having an open beta serves no other purpose than doing just that.

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Just now, nameless ronin said:

First, I wouldn’t see the 5th edition on the shelf at my local store until it’s released, which currently it isn't. Second, unless you’re arguing releasing a primer .pdf with info that can be found all over the internet by anyone who so far might have stumbled across this beta is indispensible for attracting new players, you’re not really making your point.

So when you see a game you have never seen before and have no idea what the stories behind it you go onto the internets and look up everything about it?

Wow you have way more time then I do.

The primer I was talking about for battletech consisted of

1. a quick overview of the timeline

2. a one page write-up of the Houses

3. a quick rundown on the tech of the game

4. a write-up of the mechs included in the box.

all done in about 30 large print pages with lots of pictures.

Now you don't need that much for L5R, as battletech has a lot of advanced tech to go over as its set over a thousand years past the present.

where L5Rs tech is kind of stagnate 

a 3-4 page timeline and maybe a half page each per clan could handle this. 

Just now, nameless ronin said:

You think they’re not trying to appeal to the old guard? I’d say having an open beta serves no other purpose than doing just that.

Not sure what open beta you played.

They keep a few terms from the other editions. that's about all they did to try to appeal to the old guard.

I'm not going to go over the qualities or lack there of , of 5th.

Some people like it and that's fine. I don't but that's a dead horse and not the point.

IMHO, the beta was not truly a beta.

The fact that the responses allowed where for the most part scripted.

They had an idea for the game they wanted and they are going to run with it.

This leads me to look at it as paying lip-service to a beta.

And as I have said trying to get players from other FFG game to look at it and maybe buy in.

That said I was only bringing up something that I thought might increase the chances of more people buying the game.

If you don't think it will work then fine, but its not like no other company does this was my point.

You could pick up the "Battletech: Inner sphere at a glance" during RPG day at my local game store as one of the freebies.

And from the store owner I found out that it did sell some Battletech box set.

 

 

 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

1) So when you see a game you have never seen before and have no idea what the stories behind it you go onto the internets and look up everything about it?

2) They keep a few terms from the other editions. that's about all they did to try to appeal to the old guard.

1) if this game is L5R 5th and I see it in the store, I will just have to open it up to read all about the story behind it. I don’t think many people will prefer going online in the store to see if there’s a quick rundown available there, when they can actually take a look inside the book itself. FFG might even have set something up for me to look at afterwards too, when the product they actually want to sell is available. They might even have a starter game, like for SW, although that’s doubtful. If it’s the beta I’m seeing, I’m presumably going to be on this forum and all I have to do is ask.

2) if the beta itself was just lip-service, that’s all the more proof it’s an attempt to lure in the old guard. What other purpose is there if FFG didn’t do a beta for the feedback?

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6 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

2) if the beta itself was just lip-service, that’s all the more proof it’s an attempt to lure in the old guard. What other purpose is there if FFG didn’t do a beta for the feedback?

That's like saying the changes from D&D 3.5 to 4th where for the old guard.

If it was a clone of or and update of the previous mechanics I would agree with you.

But since it was an all new system I don't see this. 

No like D&D 4th it was to appeal to a different demographic of gamers. where D&D 4th was trying to bring in MMO players, FFG was trying to snare some of their star wars players with the custom dice mechanics. 

That said FFG will probably be more successful since they are targeting a group that actually plays P&P RPGs.

You asked so, to me it was for nothing more then a proof reading , designed to try and bring in players from star wars and any of there other game.

The change to the custom dice system, and the extreme dumbing down of the system goes against everything that most old guard wanted in the game.

The main complaints about 4th was that is was the dumbing down of the system between 3rd and 4th. so you think dumbing down more is what people wanted?

Again I know there are people out that like the new game and that's fine. most games have the same issues with each change of system.

But everything they did in the design of the game and the way the beta response email where setup shows that they have made a game they wanted not the one the veteran players did, and where not going to to change their minds.

That said, if you like the game fine. I was not trying to convince you otherwise. 

But don't try and tell me they did this for the old guard. 

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7 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

1) if this game is L5R 5th and I see it in the store, I will just have to open it up to read all about the story behind it. I don’t think many people will prefer going online in the store to see if there’s a quick rundown available there, when they can actually take a look inside the book itself. FFG might even have set something up for me to look at afterwards too, when the product they actually want to sell is available. They might even have a starter game, like for SW, although that’s doubtful. If it’s the beta I’m seeing, I’m presumably going to be on this forum and all I have to do is ask.

You are assuming that people will pay it any mined at all. I don't know about you, but when I go to my local store its to buy something I want or to play in a tournament.

I don't go just to browse the store.

Now this was different when I played card and miniatures games, but not by much.

You seem to be forgetting that RPG are normally sold by word of mouth or to fans of a certain game company, getting new customers is not that easy. 

With L5R 5th edition you have the people on this website and the few who downloaded it from Drive-thru. 

Now to give you an example: in my city there are 3 game stores and 2 of them have no clue what L5R is.

The one that does is frequented by old guard players who for the most part did not like 5th. 

And because of this that store is only going to special order it on request.

So at least in my city there will not be a book on the self for you to pick-up and read. 

So they are going to have a hard time selling it here unless they can hook some new players or get the local star wars groups interested in the game.

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7 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

This website, where any info FFG could put in a primer is just a question away?

So you are just set on they don't need to advertise and that final.

That's fine for you since you already now about the game. 

And since you are so die-hard set on the idea that they don't need to do anything then so be it.

I was making a suggestion that I felt could increase their sales, you don't think they needed.

Hope that the case, but I doubt it.

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Just now, tenchi2a said:

So you are just set on they don't need to advertise and that final.

That's fine for you since you already know about the game. 

And since you are so die-hard set on the idea that they don't need to do anything then so be it.

I was making a suggestion that I felt could increase their sales, you don't think they needed.

Hope that the case, but I doubt it.

 

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39 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

So you are just set on they don't need to advertise and that final.

That's fine for you since you already now about the game. 

And since you are so die-hard set on the idea that they don't need to do anything then so be it.

I was making a suggestion that I felt could increase their sales, you don't think they needed.

Hope that the case, but I doubt it.

How is a primer .pdf about a product on a website that’s already advertising that same product going to make such a big difference? The only people who would see this primer would be people who already know about the game too.

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On 3/24/2018 at 5:50 PM, tenchi2a said:

Actually outside of the epic tales there is little to no evidence that these duel ever existed in the form that we know.

While you are right about the blood feuds, most evidence points to them just being everyday sword fights and not these elaborate Iaijutsu duels that are presented in media or this game.

Most of the modern depictions of the Iaijutsu duels come from parables and epic stories told to mystify the past. 

To the best of anyone's knowledge Iaijutsu was a technique use to draw ones sword when surprised by his opponent, and not some ultimate dueling style. 

It was given its legendary status by the media as it made for a great tense one-on-one struggle that watchers/readers love.

The issues is they are obviously trying to appeal to a different customer base then the old schoolers.

So by not explaining things, these new customers are left in the dark about why things are as they are.

And telling people that have never followed or only have a passing knowledge of the game that they need to find the info in another book or wait to see when it come out and they buy it is not a good selling point.

Actually, despite the question of "was it done," or  "was it done that way," it was a legal Japanese Statue. You have a blood feud? Go to your Daimyo or City Governor to seek permission to settle it before you do it." Why do you think the Emperor had to pass a law banning Vengeance Duels after the Shogunate fell? Because there was laws allowing it and defining how to do it legally. Those codes were the basis of creating the L5R dueling system and it's traditions.

 

If it was a completed book, i'd agree with you, but anyone who's been a gamer in either a Tabletop or Video game genres know that BETA means 'it's still in development. This is what we have for you to test of our system. Send us questions, comments, complaints, etc. during a period from XX/XX/XXXX to XX/XX/XXXX. This is not a completed product, but we encourage you to use this, that, etc. to continue to play with it even after the Beta is over.' For example, when I was running Star Trek Adventures Beta in the first round of it, they encouraged us to kitbash older Star Trek Games' adventures for further testing.

Edited by Daigotsu Naraku

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13 hours ago, llamaman88 said:

Just complains to complain, won't ever concede a point no matter it's validity.

I was not complaining about anything in the post this was a response to a historical inaccuracy that the poster had stated .

That said I do know what I am taking about since I do happen to be studying Japanese history.

So your comment "won't ever concede a point no matter it's validity" is incorrect since the point was not valid.

Edited by tenchi2a

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11 hours ago, Daigotsu Naraku said:

Perhaps, but stupidity is like the Plague... let it run rampant and it can/will destroy whatever it touches, so best to check it fast before it spreads... especially when someone's bashing something that's a: still not completed, and b: still able to be yanked from production and leave us wanting to play a finished product high and dry. If nothing else, I hope to prove that Mr. Complains to Complain is a minority, not the Majority so that FFG doesn't pull it's backing and say "Forget it. You're stuck with just the card game until we make back the money we spent on the game and then we're even pulling that."

So the best argument you have is to insult. Congratulations you already lost.

11 hours ago, Daigotsu Naraku said:

If the game was even Remotely close to finished, i'd agree with you. However, it's a Beta Test. Key words being Beta: an incomplete version, and Test: in this case, to hold up to scrutiny to see if it's new systems were ready to use or if an overhauling/scrapping was needed. Think of L5R as a next-gen speedboat being built. Right now, they're putting the engines' propeller in the water (before mounting them) and seeing if it will push a boat while putting the empty outer shell into a tank of water to see if there are any holes for water to get in and dragging it around by rope to see if it can turn. Like I keep saying, let them finish the product THEN make a decision. Did you see a price on the Beta Test book or did you get to download it for free? Wait until they're putting out a finished edition, then make up your mind.

I have already made up my mind about the game I'm not buying it.

I 'm here to follow the story and see if I want to use it later in my home games. And I do play some of there board-games. like Twilight Imperium.

My idea was to put out either a PDF which I would have suggested that they put on Drive-thru for free, or to create a booklet to send to stores for RPG day. 

As to the game not being Remotely close to finished, unless the response was that bad and they have to do a major overhaul. I figured that the game would be out by Gen-con this year so its not that far away as you are making it out to be. 

 

11 hours ago, Daigotsu Naraku said:

I swear, there's two things that I hate, and those are A: Stupidity (Not ignorance, which can be corrected with some education, but Stupidity: the refusal to try to learn or try to better yourself), and B: people who can't take a canon change and tries to **** all over it for everyone else before the full scope can even be seen. A Canon reboot is not always bad (Look at the new Wolfensteins or Deus Ex, for example) and can actually be a good thing. Not every Canon Change or Prequel is bad. Not everything is going to be Star Wars Episodes 1-3. Plus, if you feel that strongly about it, there's 4 earlier editions you can still get your hands on and use to build upon your classic Canon. So instead of clutching your old L5R to your chest like a blankie and throwing hissy fits like you messed your diaper because they're not repeating AEG's every choice and ruining things for everyone else to feel like a special snowflake, do like the other old canon-humpers and ignore this is happening!

The comment about dueling was an issues in all versions of the game and its canon, not just the beta.

So the one being stupid , is the one who is automatically assuming that this is an attack on the new canon or the beta.

 

11 hours ago, Daigotsu Naraku said:

Don't like the new LCG, don't play it and get the free Sun and Moon to continue to play the old CCG with the others. Don't like the RPG (especially while it's still in Beta), join Mythweavers, Roll20, etc and GM the editions you did like instead of trying to ruin everything for the rest of us. I played the classic games since 1999/2000 through today. I am as much a fan as it gets, but i'm willing to admit it's flaws instead of trying to suck the final drops of Kool-Aide from the ghost of the AEG Era's ****, wish FFG luck, and hope they don't make the same mistakes. If you can't even do that, then stfu, leave the site, forget AEG and L5R ever existed, and find something new to obsess over instead of trying to make ourselves feel like we're stupid for waiting to see what this new L5R is going to look/be like before we make an informed, non-biased decision.

I don't play any card games, I stopped playing them years ago. This is nothing against the LCG, I don't play them because even with FFG LCG they are money  sinks. And I already have Rocksmith and RPGs for that.

As to L5R I have been playing it since 1995. As for the Canon being some untouchable sacred thing, I just have to laugh.

There are so many wholes in the old canon as to make Swiss cheeses look solid. 

That said my only issues with the new canon right now (besides, not have a background write-up) is that it is not different enough IMHO to validate is existent. 

Not that it is to different. I made this point on the LCG forum since that's where the story is right now.

I don't care that they switched some of the genders or that there is a new emerald champion. I could care less that the created A new threat in the cult (I forget its name).

None of this bothers me on its own. What I was saying is that if they are going to change it then change it. Don't just change someones sex and leave the story the same.

Now Before you say it yes I know that the story is not that far along so it will be awhile before we will see if they fix this. 

So this idea that you have that I am out to get them is way off. 

P.S. you want to watch the Vulgarity using an anagram will get you past the filters, but not past reporting.

Now unless you work for FFG or are a forum supervisor, I don't think you have any right to tell me to leave this site. 

 

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13 hours ago, Daigotsu Naraku said:

Perhaps, but stupidity is like the Plague... let it run rampant and it can/will destroy whatever it touches, so best to check it fast before it spreads... especially when someone's bashing something that's a: still not completed, and b: still able to be yanked from production and leave us wanting to play a finished product high and dry. If nothing else, I hope to prove that Mr. Complains to Complain is a minority, not the Majority so that FFG doesn't pull it's backing and say "Forget it. You're stuck with just the card game until we make back the money we spent on the game and then we're even pulling that."

As to this point.

As far as I can tell from my wonderings around the internet. Most people could care less about L5Rs new RPG or any past L5R RPG.

As for the ones that do from most if not all the sites except this one the response is bad to who cares.

I hate to say this (As I like the L5R RPG), but outside a small group the L5R RPG is a very niche thing.

Most players I know prefer Sengoku or D&D Oriental  Adventures to L5R when playing in a Oriental setting.

It is only the setting/story that brings them in not the mechanics. 

Now that's not saying that the LCG is not a big deal, but the role-playing game has never really had a huge following outside CCG players that also role-play.

When it first came out my college buddies and I where already playing the CCG or we never would have played it.

And to the last part of your post, FFG is not going to care if the RPG does good or bad, they have the LCG which is doing so well most store that carry it are sold out.

The RPG could be a total trash fire and FFG will keep moving on with the LCG.

 

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1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

I hate to say this (As I like the L5R RPG), but outside a small group the L5R RPG is a very niche thing.

Most players I know prefer Sengoku or D&D Oriental  Adventures to L5R when playing in a Oriental setting.

It is only the setting/story that brings them in not the mechanics. 

Now that's not saying that the LCG is not a big deal, but the role-playing game has never really had a huge following outside CCG players that also role-play.

When it first came out my college buddies and I where already playing the CCG or we never would have played it.

I don’t entirely disagree, but there’s definitely some nuance missing here.

First, Sengoku and D&D OA are very niche as well. Arguably more so by now. Sengoku got a revised edition 15 years ago and I’ve heard next to nothing about it since. The first D&D OA was made when Gygax was still in charge, and the second is also already from two editions ago - and it was far from the most popular D&D setting then, and Paizo hasn’t seen fit to recreate anything similar for Pathfinder. 

Second, setting/story vs mechanics to bring players in is complicated, particularly the setting/story part. For every player I convinced to try L5R by explaining the setting and how it affects the roleplaying there’s probably been another who decided it wasn’t for him precisely because of that same setting. It’s not for everyone. In terms of mechanics, personally I think Sengoku’s Fuzion system is better but no D20 system is anywhere near as good as R&K (even if 4th edition is only third best mechanically). 

The simplest metric for me though is whether I see new players willing to try out a system. That happens with L5R, even if it isn’t often. It doesn’t happen with Sengoku or D&D OA. Neither is dead per se, but L5R is definitely more alive - in my experience. And that has a lot to do with the card game. Not because it helps with getting CCG players to try RPGing, since nobody plays the L5R card game here, but because the card game made enough that AEG could put resources into updating the RPG and releasing sourcebooks for it. There are only two real reasons for people to choose to play a game: their buddies already play it and they want to play it with them, or it’s something that’s currently in print so they see it’s supported and is more likely to pick up other new players than something that hasn’t been seen in stores in over a decade. Setting and mechanics being good can help with the longevity of an RPG and of course the better they are the better the odds of groups sticking with it, but when it comes to attracting players in the first place nothing matters more than being in print.

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9 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

I don’t entirely disagree, but there’s definitely some nuance missing here.

Yeah I'll give you that.

9 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

First, Sengoku and D&D OA are very niche as well. Arguably more so by now. Sengoku got a revised edition 15 years ago and I’ve heard next to nothing about it since. The first D&D OA was made when Gygax was still in charge, and the second is also already from two editions ago - and it was far from the most popular D&D setting then, and Paizo hasn’t seen fit to recreate anything similar for Pathfinder. 

Yeah D&D OA is from two editions ago, but 3.5 it is still the most played (or maybe tie with Pathfinder) edition of D&D as 4th was a bomb, and 5th is still trying to shake off the 4th stigma from D&D. 

9 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Second, setting/story vs mechanics to bring players in is complicated, particularly the setting/story part. For every player I convinced to try L5R by explaining the setting and how it affects the roleplaying there’s probably been another who decided it wasn’t for him precisely because of that same setting. It’s not for everyone. In terms of mechanics, personally I think Sengoku’s Fuzion system is better but no D20 system is anywhere near as good as R&K (even if 4th edition is only third best mechanically). 

I agree Sengoku’s Fuzion system is better by leaps and bounds then any version of L5R system.

And it is more appealing to people looking for a historically correct game.

D20 is more that, everyone has it on their self.

9 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

The simplest metric for me though is whether I see new players willing to try out a system. That happens with L5R, even if it isn’t often. It doesn’t happen with Sengoku or D&D OA. Neither is dead per se, but L5R is definitely more alive - in my experience. And that has a lot to do with the card game. Not because it helps with getting CCG players to try RPGing, since nobody plays the L5R card game here, but because the card game made enough that AEG could put resources into updating the RPG and releasing sourcebooks for it. There are only two real reasons for people to choose to play a game: their buddies already play it and they want to play it with them, or it’s something that’s currently in print so they see it’s supported and is more likely to pick up other new players than something that hasn’t been seen in stores in over a decade. Setting and mechanics being good can help with the longevity of an RPG and of course the better they are the better the odds of groups sticking with it, but when it comes to attracting players in the first place nothing matters more than being in print.

You know I have gone back and forth on this .

I've been in the, I'm playing this because my friends are. But you at least need to be able to tolerate the rule of the game or it becomes a chore.

And before anyone says it I'm not attacking the beta, I was referring to Playing D&D d20 (which I hate) with my friends.

As for the still in print one I think ebay an nostalgia can get people into a game as well. Example: one of the players or the GM see a game on ebay that they remember from their younger day and gets it to run for the group. 

I have found if the books are still available, the completeness of a dead RPG line can be a draw just as much as the new book smell. 

as you know what your getting from the start.

 

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