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Reins Vengard

Kill the Seeker and Keeper World prize

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They need to kill this "Winner chooses the roles" thing and quickly.

Players should just be allowed to choose their role and element. Why would you hamstring your player base creatively by allowing 1 person to choose how others have to play the game until its changed or more is added on? This basically guarantees that all mirror matches in the near future will be practically the same deck vs each other with little to no variation. As opposed to the excitement of perhaps jockeying for a different element  or different strategies in general bred from the same clan running seeker or Keeper. Also if you're making clan specific seeker or keeper cards there's a good chance those cards will never see tournament play ever if a certain clan is constantly in 1 role. and a complete waste of space and money for the players in general as we wait patiently for when they can be played.

Adding more roles can alleviate some of the stymied creation factors. But if the goal is to just roll out more and more over time whats the point other than to impede players now?

Also if you won worlds with a sound strategy and there isn't much out there to persuade you otherwise, why even change? when the patriots win the Superbowl the coach doesn't go in the back and say: "Tom, heck of a season. But we're going with a different QB because my gut says it might work out."

We all want to have fun and more options IS FUN. Being saddled with a strategy we're forced to play on the whim of a person we'll never meet is not fun. Seriously Kill this idea before it does harm. This rule will chase away new players in a heart beat as it removes the very creative foundation card games are known for. No other card game does this and with good reason. Why would MAGIC tell its players they can't play a deck type because the guy who won worlds said so? Why would Pokemon say you can't run Pikachu because a guy who won said so? Heck, Old L5R didn't even to do this and they a made A LOT of dumb decisions that were player driven prizes. Kill this rule and give out an actual prize beyond trolling a player base.

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Obligatory Responses:

1) This only matters for official tournaments.  You can play whatever you want in casual (including many local 'casual' tourneys).

2) Assumption is that someone who won for their clan knows what they are doing and have probably talked to other members of their clan, so there is probably some consensus.  Seems unlikely for someone to do well at worlds without having some interaction with the rest of their clan.

3) The restrictions on playing "Keeper" and "Seeker" while they lock you out of certain cards definitely don't make uniform decks, even in the current core-only environment.

Edited by Mirith

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B) At the end of 2018 most clans will get a second role which can be used even in official tournaments with the exception of the World Championship in which the primary role must be used.

At least that's how I understand the Clan Standings stuff in the Organized Play section. Please feel free to correct me.

C) Even now players start using different win strategies for the same clan. For example the Imperial Advisor Scorpion deck which does NOT go for a dishonour win, but aims at broken provinces. With more cards the possibilities of how to achieve victory with your clan will only increase. The role/element decision might not have such an impact as you fear. How about wait and see?

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I'll side with the OP on this one.

 

 

2 hours ago, Mirith said:

Obligatory Responses:

1) This only matters for official tournaments.  You can play whatever you want in casual (including many local 'casual' tourneys).

2) Assumption is that someone who won for their clan knows what they are doing and have probably talked to other members of their clan, so there is probably some consensus.  Seems unlikely for someone to do well at worlds without having some interaction with the rest of their clan.

3) The restrictions on playing "Keeper" and "Seeker" while they lock you out of certain cards definitely don't make uniform decks, even in the current core-only environment.

1) I know but it still rankles.

2) You do not think like a Spider. The one who knows best is me. And me alone. Leave following others to the Lion.

Edited by Robin Graves

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2 hours ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Addendum to Obligatory Messages: 

A) You cannot choose the same role your clan currently holds. For example, Phoenix Clan chose Seeker of Void at Gen Con. They cannot choose Seeker of Void again at Winter Court 2017. 

Can they choose seeker again (say seeker of fire) or do they have to change completly? (say keeper of void or keeper of water)

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1 hour ago, Robin Graves said:

Can they choose seeker again (say seeker of fire) or do they have to change completly? (say keeper of void or keeper of water)

 They can choose any role out of the ten except for the specific role they've just had. 

ADD: And except for roles already claimed by other clans during the current round of choosing. IIRC there's also a limit of max 4 keeper or seeker roles that can be chosen for a specific period, so for example if 4 of the first 5 clans pick keeper roles, the remaining 2 clans have to pick seeker roles.

Edited by Zesu Shadaban

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1 hour ago, Robin Graves said:

2) You do not think like a Spider. The one who knows best is me. And me alone. Leave following others to the Lion.

This is a game about samurai, which the Spider are not. Following orders is what we are supposed to do. Feel free to commit seppuku if you disagree :P

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39 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

...IIRC there's also a limit of max 4 keeper or seeker roles that can be chosen for a specific period, so for example if 4 of the first 5 clans pick keeper roles, the remaining 2 clans have to pick seeker roles.

This was stricken from the Clan Roles page on October 6th. If the first five choices are Keeper roles, then the last two clans must choose Seeker roles.

Edited by hawkeyespf

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4 hours ago, Yakamo no Oni said:

B) At the end of 2018 most clans will get a second role which can be used even in official tournaments with the exception of the World Championship in which the primary role must be used.

At least that's how I understand the Clan Standings stuff in the Organized Play section. Please feel free to correct me.

Almost, but not quite from how I read the article. The bonus role is just for use at Worlds and the currently-unnamed-but-around-that-time-period in-store event. Priority on the bonus role goes to the clan with the least number of points (so basically least attendance), granting them access to whatever one they voted for the most. Working up the list to the next lowest number of points clan and whatever they voted for the most that's still available. 

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people using the excuse that you can use which ever in casual game play or non official events is a poor excuse, who wants to create an awesome deck just to have to change it up because your new role doesn't allow you to play that second element of a province, or all you that extra 3 influence of your secondary clan. I agree i think they should just do away with it and allow players to play their decks with which ever choice they want.  

I also agree that it isnt a deck construction hindrance but it 100% sure does affect deck construction. 

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51 minutes ago, hawkeyespf said:

This was stricken from the Clan Roles page on October 6th. If the first five choices are Keeper roles, then the last two clans must choose Seeker roles.

Good catch, must have missed that update...guess that's why they call you Hawkeyes! ^_^

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*People complaining about a mechanic we havent even seen perform in a game less then a month old*

*People complaining that they are limited from playing only 8 cards out of an incoming 120 cards and that means they want to trash an entire core game system*

*People Actually arguing that limitations arent deck supporting deck diversity without understanding that it actually does* 

*People not realizing that without it the game becomes stale as the best decks rise to the top in an eternal format and this helps solve it*

All I see is incredibly over dramatic speculation and poo-pooing of things they havent even had a chance to really see in action... what a waste of typing lol

 

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25 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Good catch, must have missed that update...guess that's why they call you Hawkeyes! ^_^

Ah, common misunderstanding. The name is "Hawke Yes PF". The PF family has been renowned in gaming circles since the invention of the "you throw stone, I throw stone further so I win!" game in 20,000BC.  His middle name is because his mom is a huge fan of the prog rock band 'Yes'. Hawke...well, hawks are cool, and spelling it with an 'e' is even cooler.

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I am fine with the clans choosing roles at worlds. If every player of a particular clan plays the same exact decklist, so be it, it makes them more predictable for others to take advantage of. But I do not think decklists will look the same by the time the first nor the final pack of the imperial cycle drops. Already I see different choices from decks of the same clans and having 120 more cards in the pool, with probably 12-14 more for each faction, means that decks will vary as each clan will have more options for the themes their clan has.

Though we don't know what will be released in the first cycle, I would not doubt that there will be more provinces and clan-specific provinces by end of year. Seeker decks will have more variety in choosing their extra provinces and which element to exclude. Keeper decks might find Keeper Initiates not as appealing for some builds but used more often in other ones. So I do not believe deckbuilding will become stale just because your role was seleted by someone at worlds. 

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10 hours ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

*People complaining about a mechanic we havent even seen perform in a game less then a month old*

*People complaining that they are limited from playing only 8 cards out of an incoming 120 cards and that means they want to trash an entire core game system*

*People Actually arguing that limitations arent deck supporting deck diversity without understanding that it actually does* 

*People not realizing that without it the game becomes stale as the best decks rise to the top in an eternal format and this helps solve it*

All I see is incredibly over dramatic speculation and poo-pooing of things they havent even had a chance to really see in action... what a waste of typing lol

 

I hate to agree with angry-pants, but he is right. 

It is a false limitation, that the players end up having limited control (instead of no control) over.  FFG could have released an optional card that restricts/changes your deckbuilding, lets call it "Sensei". (Chosen from a hat, I assure you).  You play it with your stronghold and it gives you an extra ability or something to use.  I feel like the grumbling about this would be far less if FFG chose it instead it is chosen by the person who did the best in your clan at the biggest tournament each year.  So instead of FFG choosing it, now a player does it, and it could be you, if you tried hard enough!  

Also the benefits are ENTIRELY positive.  You get extra fate when a thing happens, and you add cards to your available card pool when you choose the role. The Keepers are all functionally equivalent, (I'm sure some decks prefer one sligthly over the other), so that only leaves the 'bad' choice of choosing the wrong seeker.  At this point, I think even with just neutral provinces, I would be disappointed in getting Seeker of Water, and I think Lion or Unicorn could do well with seeker of Water, and Night Raid + Meditations is not really that bad.

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15 hours ago, Spector1331 said:

It actually encourages more deckbuilding variety than it inhibits. Forces clans to change how they build decks and provinces used at times. Otherwise you would just find the best role and always run it. 

This.  This x 1000

I see this "Why can't I pick my role?" to be in the same wheelhouse as "why can't I splash from more than one clan?"

The best role / cards would end up in every single deck and the environment would stagnate.  Forcing people to diversify by not allowing them to play "the best" of everything at all times is a good thing. 

Restrictions breed creativity.

The Original Star Wars Trilogy was great because Lucas had a tight budget, couldn't do everything he wanted, and had people telling him "No!"
The prequel trilogy was awful because he had an unlimited budget, could do absolutely anything he wanted, and no one was willing to tell him "No!"

Edited by Yogo Gohei

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This whole thing is just really funny.

You don't want someone else making decisions for you? I have bad news unless you're a developer.

It's only because it's a peer. Being bothered that a peer made a decision you need to live with instead of some 'authority' says something. I'm not sure what, but it says something.

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On top of that, lets say the worst happened and your Hatamoto at Worlds picked the WORST role for you.

At WORST, you just lose like 10-12 possible cards from the other roll, probably upped to 19-22 by the end of the year, out of 240 cards plus Core set, and either get free fate or influence.

If you want a Seeker, but get keeper, that 3 influence is still great.
If you want Keeper, but get Seeker, that extra gold is really solid.

A great example is Phoenix. I want Keeper of Fire, mainly because I like Harmonize and a few of the keeper cards while also favoring the three influence. However, if the Hatamoto of the Phoenix at Worlds chooses Seeker, I may be disappointed I am missing out on the cards I wanted, but the Seeker money is still REALLY good for Phoenix. I honestly think Seeker right now is better, no matter the element, then Keeper, I just want to play with more influence.

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I think the roles choice on gencon was unnecessary.

Cause with few options to splash and only 2 provinces for each element some roles seems far better than others, like Seeker of Air.

Now we see the spoilers of seeker and keeper only cards, the question is not a problem anymore, there will be good options for any choice, and we will get new provinces soon too..

But unfortunately the gencon choices will certainly affect the worlds..

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If Scorpion winds up with a Seeker role after worlds, I will be sad because I can't play Backhanded Compliment.

That sadness is not enough for me to want to burn the whole system to the ground.  It is a great system, and creates direct player interaction on a level that goes beyond anything AEG ever did in their 20 years with the game.

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