The 2 cores or the expansions debate after a peak

[Omegaclone 111]

On 10/25/2017 at 5:19 PM, Nephlim24 said:

 

Are you going to be collecting botg sides?

Yes I will be collecting both sides. It’d be hard for me to choose. This will most likely be “The Go To” Star Wars game that I want to play for a while. I think this may fill my collector itch, since Hasbro can’t get their act together. 

 

1 hour ago, Tirion said:

The man himself Alex Davies. He stated that the rrg will be online which should eliminate the need for FAQs or awkward rulings as they can just change the actual rules. 

I'm hopeful and worried about this.

I remember hearing that in the Team Covenant podcast but wasn’t sure if it was immediately or eventually that’s the direction he wanted it to go. 

I’d rather have a physical copy but digital “living document” makes sense

[ninclouse2000 1,051]

Do we know if the core set and wave one are going to be released together or will there be a gap between the core set and wave one?

[Mep 2,291]

2 hours ago, ninclouse2000 said:

Do we know if the core set and wave one are going to be released together or will there be a gap between the core set and wave one?

There was a gap with the runewars stuff. I don't think they gave any release dates on Legions though. Safe guess is a gap.

[ninclouse2000 1,051]

4 minutes ago, Mep said:

There was a gap with the runewars stuff. I don't think they gave any release dates on Legions though. Safe guess is a gap.

I hope so, wave one will be very expensive so I’d like a few weeks inbtween.

[Ralgon 1,005]

37 minutes ago, Mep said:

There was a gap with the runewars stuff. I don't think they gave any release dates on Legions though. Safe guess is a gap.

Alex has said the "aim" is to release together so you can fill your 800 pionts from day 1 after lessons learnt from the runewars launch but i'm in the same camp. Short delay expected.

[ninclouse2000 1,051]

I noticed that the wave one expansions aren’t listed in upcoming yet and that the core set is at the printer I believe. If this is accurate I think there will be months between the releases.

[Dr Lucky 1,045]

4 hours ago, Omegaclone said:

I remember hearing that in the Team Covenant podcast but wasn’t sure if it was immediately or eventually that’s the direction he wanted it to go. 

I’d rather have a physical copy but digital “living document” makes sense

This is what they've done with Destiny and it works pretty well. The starter products have all come with a rules sheet with all the rules necessary to play the game and build decks. However, you've got to go online to get the RRG which has all the corner-case situations like a more complete description of the timing rules for competing card interactions. The RRG also has any errata (for the rules and for specific cards) along with the FAQ, all in one document. 

I'm honestly surprised how much I like it. At first it annoyed me that I didn't get a physical copy, but this seems better.  It's always up to date and it is a one stop document for all questions. Plus, since the Learn to Play points players there, even relatively new players and casual players stumble onto the FAQ and errata. This system seems to work. 

[Ralgon 1,005]

5 hours ago, ninclouse2000 said:

I noticed that the wave one expansions aren’t listed in upcoming yet and that the core set is at the printer I believe. If this is accurate I think there will be months between the releases.

Not necessarily.

A few of the xwing waves have been multi part announcements but released together, and Sorastro hinted that the atst and t47 sculpts existed at the same time as the core announcement. The rest being the same models with some extra cards thrown in and different boxes suggest it's more than likely they can put them together.

[Blutsteigen 89]

One core for my friend and I each, to see if we like it a lot and how much we actually play. Then we will expand from there, possibly with another core + unit boxes, but probably just unit categories that we agree on for our larger matches.  He's playing Imperial, i'm playing rebel -- but we are borrowing, not trading, our starter set figures.

[Vertrucio 33]

Two cores, and I'll be printing out my own cards.

But that won't stop me from buying a lot of this product. It's just that I will not put up with the same issues X-Wing and Armada had. Especially so since they're routinely breaking the game and the only route they use to fix it is upgrade cards.

[Krashwire 200]

I'm hoping there is no gap. I don't much want two cores. I want more diversity. For those of us who can afford it we shouldn't be handicapped just because of some selfish nonsense like "wave one will be very expensive so I’d like a few weeks inbtween"

There is no reason you have to buy it all at once. Those who want to shouldn't be punished. The slow roll-out of Runewars hurt the game in many local communities I have looked into.

If you don't want to have to buy everything at once just start a slow grow league, but don't ask for everyone to live on other's budget issues.

[ninclouse2000 1,051]

3 hours ago, Krashwire said:

I'm hoping there is no gap. I don't much want two cores. I want more diversity. For those of us who can afford it we shouldn't be handicapped just because of some selfish nonsense like "wave one will be very expensive so I’d like a few weeks inbtween"

There is no reason you have to buy it all at once. Those who want to shouldn't be punished. The slow roll-out of Runewars hurt the game in many local communities I have looked into.

If you don't want to have to buy everything at once just start a slow grow league, but don't ask for everyone to live on other's budget issues.

Aren’t you basically asking people to live on your budget in your rant? Pot meet kettle.

[Dr Lucky 1,045]

4 hours ago, ninclouse2000 said:

Aren’t you basically asking people to live on your budget in your rant? Pot meet kettle.

I think his point is that nobody has to buy everything. More options is good for the people who want to buy everything, but it's also good for those who want to build slowly. 

[The Black Man 215]

Just going for the one core here.

The expansions will come with extra tokens and new cards which you won't get in another core.

Picking up an extra dice pack and movement tool/range ruler pack will round up everything I will need.

[Ralgon 1,005]

1 hour ago, Dr Lucky said:

I think his point is that nobody has to buy everything. More options is good for the people who want to buy everything, but it's also good for those who want to build slowly. 

No, it's not. What it does is creates an "afford to win" situation which can turn players off.

While i agree it all should be available for people to fill out their armies i also see where new players may get frustrated by not being able to deal well with the rich kid that dumps 2x atst on the table in his 1st battle or have the means to afford good counters for weeks/months

Edited October 31, 2017 by Ralgon

[Sk3tch 571]

2 hours ago, Ralgon said:

No, it's not. What it does is creates an "afford to win" situation which can turn players off.

While i agree it all should be available for people to fill out their armies i also see where new players may get frustrated by not being able to deal well with the rich kid that dumps 2x atst on the table in his 1st battle or have the means to afford good counters for weeks/months

Every game is in the same boat after wave 1 gets released.

The problem is the target audience ( the ones with the money to spend on the game) seem to buy the core then if no wave one find something else to play. 

I'm hoping for wave one to be simultaneous or only weeks away from release, and then have a long break until wave 2. Gives people options to get into the game from day 1 and doesn't get too expensive for all the people that get into it over summer. 

[Ralgon 1,005]

1 hour ago, Sk3tch said:

Every game is in the same boat after wave 1 gets released.

The problem is the target audience ( the ones with the money to spend on the game) seem to buy the core then if no wave one find something else to play. 

I'm hoping for wave one to be simultaneous or only weeks away from release, and then have a long break until wave 2. Gives people options to get into the game from day 1 and doesn't get too expensive for all the people that get into it over summer. 

The twitterverse has confirmed it's aimed to be together.....

 

 

[Sk3tch 571]

25 minutes ago, Ralgon said:

The twitterverse has confirmed it's aimed to be together.....

All is as foreseen. (So far).  

Now just hoping they A) Announce Special forces and another commander for wave 1 and B) give us a good 4 months until release Wave 2.

[Animewarsdude 3,639]

2 hours ago, Sk3tch said:

All is as foreseen. (So far).  

Now just hoping they A) Announce Special forces and another commander for wave 1 and B) give us a good 4 months until release Wave 2.

Sure, so long as we don't get the same drought between wave 1 and 2 that we had with Armada. 

[Sk3tch 571]

18 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

Sure, so long as we don't get the same drought between wave 1 and 2 that we had with Armada. 

If anything it will go the other way. 

[Dr Lucky 1,045]

If they release this like Runewars, there won't really be a distinct "Wave 2" at all - just a constant trickle of one or two models every month or two. I don't think this will be like X-Wing/Armada where a bunch of new content is released and then the meta has six months to crystalize before new content is released again. This will probably be slow, constant evolution. 

[Sk3tch 571]

9 minutes ago, Dr Lucky said:

If they release this like Runewars, there won't really be a distinct "Wave 2" at all - just a constant trickle of one or two models every month or two. I don't think this will be like X-Wing/Armada where a bunch of new content is released and then the meta has six months to crystalize before new content is released again. This will probably be slow, constant evolution. 

That sounds pretty good actually. 

[Krashwire 200]

14 hours ago, ninclouse2000 said:

Aren’t you basically asking people to live on your budget in your rant? Pot meet kettle.

Not at all. In my scenario if there are 3 things you can buy but you can only afford one, you buy one. If you can afford more and you want more of them you can buy them. In other peoples "I can't afford it so you shouldn't have it" scenarios there should only be 1 option and that's all anyone should be allowed to buy.

That second scenario is not only selfish, it is bad for the game. Miniatures game THRIVE on variety at the table top. If there is a very small pool of figures to choose from everyone has the same thing. That really stifles what makes these games great and lasting. If you think for some odd reason that everyone should have exactly the same pool to pull from you are probably better off in another game.

Miniatures is an expensive hobby. Anyone who wants to play this game may as well accept that now. Can you play for relatively cheap? Sure, but don't expect to be competitive. You can always find other like minded players and player lower point games or games with restricted variety.

However if you restrict everyone to that structure you will lose far more players than the one or two petulant whiners who cry  "That's not fair, I can't afford it so you shouldn't have it! I'm not gonna buy it at all if I can't have everything everyone else does." 

Besides if you are going to cater to one group or the other, no sane business caters to those who can't spend money over those who can. This is a game, a luxury, not a need or a right.

Bringing out everything in wave 1 at launch in no way hurts players who must buy things a little at a time. They can always choose not to play against people who have spent more. The reality is points based minis games mean no matter how much you spend you CANNOT be overpowered unless the game's balance is garbage. 

I wont even be able to afford everything I want in the first wave right at launch. That doesn't mean other shouldn't be allowed access. The more variety there is the better retention the game will have. Only a core will result in a lot of lost players in less than a month.

[Krashwire 200]

9 hours ago, Ralgon said:

No, it's not. What it does is creates an "afford to win" situation which can turn players off.

While i agree it all should be available for people to fill out their armies i also see where new players may get frustrated by not being able to deal well with the rich kid that dumps 2x atst on the table in his 1st battle or have the means to afford good counters for weeks/months

"afford to win"? You both play with the same number of points. There is no "afford to win" unless the game's balance is garbage and they sell better figures for more money. This is FFG not GW. I don't expect that will happen.

I highly doubt 2 AT-ST is going to be a strong list. They can't capture objectives. Even if they did you are always free to say, "Nope, I do not want to play against that." Some might want to play against it and see if they can win. Why should one person who can't afford this hobby prevent those who can from playing it fairly and within the rules?

[KrisWall 966]

1 hour ago, Krashwire said:

"afford to win"? You both play with the same number of points. There is no "afford to win" unless the game's balance is garbage and they sell better figures for more money. This is FFG not GW. I don't expect that will happen.

I highly doubt 2 AT-ST is going to be a strong list. They can't capture objectives. Even if they did you are always free to say, "Nope, I do not want to play against that." Some might want to play against it and see if they can win. Why should one person who can't afford this hobby prevent those who can from playing it fairly and within the rules?

Yeah, I also agree that 2x ATSTs will mean that the rest of your list is pretty spotty.  Vader plus 2x AT-STs runs close to 600 points with no upgrades.  You have to include at least 3x Corps choices, so you're looking at 132 points for three bare Stormtrooper units.  You're now at around 732 points of your 800 and you haven't taken any upgrades yet.  I just don't see that winning games easily.  I think 1x AT-ST will be common.  2x will be less useful.

Ignoring the fact that spamming units that can't claim objectives in an objective based game is a bad idea, it's not like the core set lacks options for both factions to deal with Armor.  There are multiple weapons with Impact on both sides.    It's not like you have to go buy half a dozen expansion boxes just to be able to survive an AT-ST.

It's looking like Legion will be a pretty cheap option in the table top wargaming field.  At full retail, $90 for a core set, $50 for an AT-ST and $25 for a unit of Stormtroopers gets you a pretty solid army with some build flexibility.  That's $165 at full retail and it leaves you with a half sized army of a second faction.  With the main market competitor, Warhammer 40k, the starter set is $160 and doesn't come with anywhere close to a full sized army (~2000 points).