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Compatibility of Imperial Assault and Legion

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So many hobby elitists. I would honestly have to consider declining to play against somebody that considers the better painter the winner and not the better gamer.  This game will be about gameplay first and foremost, not who has the prettiest storm trooper. I didn’t even know people like this existed.  I’m thankful I have not run into these types at my game store ever.  

Edited by ninclouse2000

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11 minutes ago, ninclouse2000 said:

So many hobby elitists. I would honestly have to consider declining to play against somebody that considers the better painter the winner and not the better gamer.  This game will be about gameplay first and foremost, not who has the prettiest storm trooper. I didn’t even know people like this existed.  I’m thankful I have not run into these types at my game store ever.  

Every type of elitist exists in every hobby unfortunately, and they are all equally obnoxious.

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6 hours ago, Col. Dash said:

Didn't say they did universally but many do. Plus FFG isn't the one running individual tournaments, the TO is and since these take place typically at local stores, the owner themself may have their input that they have to be painted in order to advertise(seen it before). What you call a weak game is the top selling miniature hobby war game on the market. Bolt Action is right up there as well and is a far from weak game. Painting scores simply allow for people who want to compete in part of the gaming aspect but not reduce themselves to being just another WAAC tournament player. Most tournies I have been in have painting(usually done in  blind voting at a lunch break), sportsman, best general, and overall winner(combined score) as the awards and it works fine. You obviously like the tournament scene, great have fun with your net lists and those style of tournaments. The skill is on the hobby side of things provided you aren't paying someone else to paint it for you.

Local events are going to do whatever they want. They could even allow proxies. But most are will just go with the FFG rules because it's easier to have them be the default then have to advertise your own. But truthfully they can do whatever there's no accounting for it.

Yes GW makes weak games. This isn't a startling revelation, it's something GW even accepts. They go out of their way to tell players that they are a company that makes miniatures not games, that's why there is no effort put into balancing or playtesting that side of the products. Selling alot of product does not mean the game portion of the product is any good, kudos for to them for selling it in spite of that.

But soft scores (sportsmanship, painting, composition, etc) are absolutely used by games that can't stand on their own two feet as games alone. GW is the prime example of that. GW and other similar companies has created a subset of gamers that believe actually sitting down to play a game on the competitive merit of the game itself is a dirty word. It's nutty, but sure as day you're a prime example of it.

Not all hobby miniature games operate like that, and there's little to no reason to expect one from a game first company like FFG to operate like that either.

There's absolutely no grounds for this weird notion that not being into the hobby side of things is means you should steer clear of Legion. Whether Legion is a good game or not is super far off since we haven't even seen the full ruleset.

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5 hours ago, ninclouse2000 said:

So many hobby elitists. I would honestly have to consider declining to play against somebody that considers the better painter the winner and not the better gamer.  This game will be about gameplay first and foremost, not who has the prettiest storm trooper. I didn’t even know people like this existed.  I’m thankful I have not run into these types at my game store ever.  

I am certainly not one of those hobby elitists as you put it. I don't have the time or energy (or 3D printer) to put into this stuff. I will say when all prettied up, those games do look very cool and a lot of fun. Legion will be much the same way. This game will be amazing all prettied up and boring when played with gray models, stock barricades and a couple of books off to one side of the mat. It's the customization of these games that makes them great. If you aren't into that, this isn't the game for you. That has nothing to do with being a hobby elitists. You are going to want the custom terrain to fit the different missions available. You will need the different forms of cover to make the game interesting. If you are not into dressing this game up, then you really need to partner with someone who is because this game naked does not look interesting. If you are looking for a game that is all about the game play, then there are other star wars games that are better suited for that. Legion is a game that begs to be dressed up. X-Wing, Armada, even Imperial Assault don't need any dressing up.

Whatever you do, don't go bashing the "hobby elitists" when you play them because you will quickly not be invited to play with all the cool custom stuff built for this game by being disrespectful. There is a great deal of time, talent and craftsmanship that goes into the hobby side of things and if you aren't in the mindset to be respectful of that, then things aren't going to go well. It is a different culture than the pure gamers. If you are into first person shooter computer games, well these guys are similar to the modders that make custom maps. They may not be the best gamers, but nevertheless they enrich the games they work on and some of them truly make those game great. Prepare for a bit of a cultural shift from purely competitive games.

 

As for the game, well there may be a few details here and there not spoiled but they did show off the game pretty well at gencon. They showed unit composition, movement, combat with dice, start of round card effects, and start of game deployment and mission types. What was left out is probably specific to how to customize the game. So we do know what this game is exactly. I don't see FFG having mandatory painting needed for tournaments or extra points for not being an overly competitive ***.  I am sure most stores will follow FFG tournament rules as well. Even so, that doesn't mean Legion is not a miniatures hobby/game and will be devoid of all paint and custom terrain. This game will be at its best when fully embraced. 

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7 hours ago, ninclouse2000 said:

So many hobby elitists. I would honestly have to consider declining to play against somebody that considers the better painter the winner and not the better gamer.  This game will be about gameplay first and foremost, not who has the prettiest storm trooper. I didn’t even know people like this existed.  I’m thankful I have not run into these types at my game store ever.  

Not every hobbyist is an elitist. I put a lot of time and effort into my models. I've spent thousands of dollars on hobby tools, paints, classes, etc.... I take a lot of pride in the way my models look and that I did all of the work on them.

That said, I'd be happy to play you whether your models are painted or not. The idea is to have fun. I get more enjoyment out of the hobby than the game but I like both a lot.

What I like more than both is getting to meet interesting people and making new friends. I know that sounds 'sappy' but its the truth. 

I hope you find a good community to play with.

J--

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I don't consider myself an elitist, but I don't have time to play every week either. I am lucky to get in 2 Saturdays a month to get a game in. I do spend 15 minutes here and 30 minutes there painting and working on miniatures. The joys of being an adult. Will I play against an unpainted army? Of course. But first thought when I see an unpainted army is this guy is a WAAC tourney player. An unpainted army has a negative vibe due to experiences of the past when I used to play tournaments. The opponents didn't build the army because he likes the army, he built it real fast in order to win because that's what his club says or the internet says is the best list he can build. He will change his list next week when a more efficient combo becomes available or is discovered. There are actual members only clubs out there that keep databases of army lists that are regularly updated that they calculate and feel are the most effective and powerful on the table that their members build and they travel all over the region and the country to play them. I play games for fun and story. My army is my army and I build it with miniatures I like, which aren't the most effective usually. The goal of any game is to have fun for both players not to curb stomp them. Its one of the major issues I have had with Xwing is that it is a total tournament game. There isn't a lot of room for fun players when each expansion makes it required to buy them in order to compete. Yes that's the business plan, at least in 40k and especially Bolt Action I can play the same army I have played for years with minor tweaks as the editions and books come out. Is it optimized? Nope, again, the point is to have fun, not curb stomp people. If I know those people are in the group, I chose not to play them because the game will not be fun for me.

As a hobbyist and gamer, I appreciate other painted armies. In pick up games when people are learning how to play, you expect them to not have fully painted armies. But over time you also expect them to at least try and make them look somewhat the part on the table. A major part of a 3D miniatures game is the models and the spectacle they present on the table. A fully terrained table with two or more fully painted armies is an extremely satisfying thing to play. You tourney people can squawk all you want about not wanting to paint and how the game is the game. You are in a new type of game now. This isn't Xwing, this isn't IA, this isn't Magic, this is a game where the hobby side of things IS 50% of the game. Most likely, veteran gamers arent going to deny you games if you don't paint them, although over time if you chose to continue with your grey legions in the same group expect to start taking snide cracks about them in jest. Even half a** painting is better than no paint at all. White is the hardest color to paint bar none, but even a simple base coat of white with a black wash and heavy white dry brush over it is better than grey(or whatever they do the plastics in), you could do the entire starter set in less than an hour's actual work with two paints. The small number of figures used in this game, right now 800 points is skirmish to me, could be 3 color painted in a week or two of a little here and a little there even without washes with the Imps being the fastest. I am a slow painter and am detail oriented, I will take a lot longer, and like every army I own, it will always be a work in progress but I aside from an initial game or two, I have too much pride to field an army that isn't at least base painted(the initial paint coat after the primer, also the easiest and fastest) because it makes the army more cohesive looking on the table and again the spectacle of the game is a lot of why we play. I view armies as a creative investment  and want the games I play to be as cinematic as possible for both myself and my opponent's enjoyment. Maybe your group is different.

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12 hours ago, Mep said:

This game will be amazing all prettied up and boring when played with gray models, stock barricades and a couple of books off to one side of the mat.

I've played a number of people who had gray armies and they never once thought the game was boring.

Naturally the game is better looking with fully painted models and nice terrain, but those things aren't required to enjoy playing the game.  Anyone who thinks so is either an elitist who is doing more harm then good for the hobby, or simply clueless.

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23 hours ago, Col. Dash said:

There is also nothing that says either officially they wont impose a minimum 3 color rule or that individual TOs wont make painted rules a requirement. This is a hobby game more so than any other ffg SW games have had in the past. I have never been to a bolt action or GW tournament that didn't require minimum paint. I take that back, I have, but the unpainted armies were ineligible to be overall winner with a grey plastic army because of painting scores. Now granted most players will never step foot into a tournament, not wanting to deal with the min maxer power gamers that typically crowd those events, so for the average player painting wont be a must have for casual games or more likely they will spend more time painting than they do playing.

The indication from their Runewars tabletop is pretty strong that there won't be an FFG dictated paint requirement. TOs are free to do what they want outside of the FFG OP circuit, but the most popular tournaments will be FFG OP ones if X-Wing and Armada are anything to go by. There will probably an incentive for painting with side contests going on and those will be great fun, but not part of the main event score.

On 26.11.2017 at 1:02 AM, Mep said:

The "elitists" was into response for someone using the term "hobby elitists", "since we are going to use that term". Before you go criticizing someone you might want to pay attention and understanding what is actually being said first. "Elitist" is a horrible term in my opinion, which I am sure everyone will be happy to disagree with.

BTW, FFG did a wonderful job demoing their game and explaining it. For those that paid attention, they should know exactly what this game is. Also, I didn't say it was going to be a bad game, I said many people will find it boring if things aren't all prettied up. With good paints and terrain, Legion will be awesome. With gray models, a few barricades and some, umm books I guess, yeah, a game like X Wing will be more interesting to play. Also, saying Imperial Assault is a better game because it is more accessible isn't a knock on Legion. X-Wing is a better game than Armada because it is more accessible, hence why more people play X Wing. This does not make Armada a bad game and some prefer a less accessible game.

The point is, there are plenty of Star Wars games now that use miniatures. For those that are going to fully embrace what Legion actually is, they will probably be very happy with it. For those wanting X Wing with stormtroopers and getting exited over the new pretty FFG put out, they will be disappointed.

TBH the game looks about as deep and interesting as X-Wing, and I'd play that if it were just the base cardboards. Your presumption that it will be boring if not prettied up is very likely to be premature, after all so far we have only seen the kind of descisions that can be made (at least most of them), but barely scratched the surface of the factors that will influence them. That part is where the real meat of gameplay lies, though.

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4 hours ago, VanorDM said:

I've played a number of people who had gray armies and they never once thought the game was boring.

Naturally the game is better looking with fully painted models and nice terrain, but those things aren't required to enjoy playing the game.  Anyone who thinks so is either an elitist who is doing more harm then good for the hobby, or simply clueless.

Of course making things pretty doesn't matter. This is why companies like WotC or FFG don't bother with art work for their cards......

When there is bad art work, people notice, a lot. You may not want it to matter but it does. With that said not everyone is good at painting and I doubt too many people will be scornful of those who can't pretty things up with the best of them. They aren't professional artist and don't deserve a hard critique of their work like "Rookie Pilot" from Destiny. The same is true for those who aren't the best at gaming. Hopefully people don't go trashing on someone just because they aren't the best at the game. How a game looks is very important though. The game play matters too but if FFG put this game out with nothing but plastic blobs for figures they know it won't sell. To think otherwise is clueless. I still don't think painting is or ever should be a requirement but you won't get the same enjoyment out of the game with the unpainted stuff.

3 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

TBH the game looks about as deep and interesting as X-Wing, and I'd play that if it were just the base cardboards. Your presumption that it will be boring if not prettied up is very likely to be premature, after all so far we have only seen the kind of descisions that can be made (at least most of them), but barely scratched the surface of the factors that will influence them. That part is where the real meat of gameplay lies, though.

They pretty much spoiled the entire game at GenCon. Everyone seems to be expecting or rather wanting "more". I think they game they showed is the game we are getting. I don't think they were hiding some command deck or anther set of dice. What we didn't get to see are upgrade cards but we are all use to those by now, so still, nothing new or more there. The factors that influence decisions will come from the customization part of the game on the players side. Yes, the meat of the game will be that customization and that is a good thing. BTW, that is what I mean by pretty it up. Good terrain design isn't just the paint job. Think of it in terms of building the game map and how to make that interesting, challenging and hence fun. There is more to design than just paint.

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19 hours ago, Mep said:

They pretty much spoiled the entire game at GenCon. Everyone seems to be expecting or rather wanting "more". I think they game they showed is the game we are getting. I don't think they were hiding some command deck or anther set of dice. What we didn't get to see are upgrade cards but we are all use to those by now, so still, nothing new or more there. The factors that influence decisions will come from the customization part of the game on the players side. Yes, the meat of the game will be that customization and that is a good thing. BTW, that is what I mean by pretty it up. Good terrain design isn't just the paint job. Think of it in terms of building the game map and how to make that interesting, challenging and hence fun. There is more to design than just paint.

I don't think they even came close to spoiling the whole game. They showed what amounts to a sample of the combat mechanics, and a very limited one at that. Did they show the command decks for Luke and Vader? Did they play with objectives? What are the rules for terrain setup? What ways can you interact with terrain? There's much more to this game than modeling and painting. I think you may end up being very disappointed when Legion actually attracts people from X-Wing, Armada, and IA who show up to play an actual game not just set up a diorama and compare paint jobs. Maybe I'm wrong but the focus of Legion seems to me to be a game you play with miniatures not miniatures that can also be used to play a game.

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1 minute ago, Megatronrex said:

I don't think they even came close to spoiling the whole game. They showed what amounts to a sample of the combat mechanics, and a very limited one at that. Did they show the command decks for Luke and Vader? Did they play with objectives? What are the rules for terrain setup? What ways can you interact with terrain? There's much more to this game than modeling and painting. I think you may end up being very disappointed when Legion actually attracts people from X-Wing, Armada, and IA who show up to play an actual game not just set up a diorama and compare paint jobs. Maybe I'm wrong but the focus of Legion seems to me to be a game you play with miniatures not miniatures that can also be used to play a game.

Yes, exactly this.  

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21 hours ago, Mep said:

Of course making things pretty doesn't matter. This is why companies like WotC or FFG don't bother with art work for their cards......

Naturally well painted mini's and terrain make the game better.  But that doesn't mean they are a requirement to have an enjoyable game.  Maybe you're so superficial you can't see the point, but the rest of us can.

21 hours ago, Mep said:

To think otherwise is clueless.

The most clueless thing here are your strawmen.  Because you keep trying to argue points that no one is actually making.

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Obviously you cannot truly enjoy basketball unless you are Michael Jordan.  Obviously you cannot enjoy painting pictures unless you are Leonardo DaVinci.  Obviously you cannot enjoy writing unless you are Stephen King.  Obviously you cannot enjoy cooking unless you are Jamie Oliver...  Come on.  This discussion is dumb and useless.  Hundreds of thousands of people have been enjoying miniature games for well over 100 years.  I am 100% sure that some kid in the 1890s playing H.G. Wells' Little Wars did not paint his tin soldiers and still loved playing the game.  People have been playing 40k, Infinity, Warmachine, Dropzone Commander, Krosmaster, Imperial Assault and every other ****ing mini game out there without painting or building terrain and those games are all doing ****ing fine.  Stop acting like this the first miniature game ever to be released.  This is an established market.  Star Wars is a hugely popular IP.  FFG is an incredibly successful company.  This is literally the best recipe for success I have seen since Imperial Assault.  FFG has made 5 incredibly successful Star Wars games now.  I expect Legion to be no different.  

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See. that is the thing. FFG has other SW games that use miniatures. Yes one can enjoy Legion without paint or terrain and in a vacuum that is fine. However there are the other SW games that are more complete if you aren't going to paint and make terrain. So if you aren't going to embrace the game fully, why bother when you have other choices you can embrace fully, other than Legion is the new pretty everyone is excited about? Why would anyone play with a unpainted tin soldier when they can buy a painted X-wing? Yes, at the beginning a lot of people will show up, play this game and once the newness has worn off they will go back to X-Wing or Armada or Destiny.  You guys seriously think people are going to play with books and unpainted minis when they turn their noses up at a game like Imperial Assault because the minis aren't painted? I am sure Legion will be as big of a success as Imperial Assault, and that is to say not many people will be playing it, but it will do much better than Runewars, which is to say some people will actually be playing it. Thinking a bunch of people will abandon X-Wing and show up with unpainted minis and books at league night 4 months after release is just silly. I will agree a few people may stick with it that have no interest in the hobby side, but I am sure they will be borrowing terrain whenever they can.

BTW, everyone is superficial to some extent and the general populace is rather superficial which is a point I am making here others just want to dismiss. The whole reason people are excited about this game is because of SW, which is a pretty superficial reason right there. It is also the same reason this game will sizzle and never get hot.

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18 minutes ago, Mep said:

However there are the other SW games that are more complete if you aren't going to paint and make terrain.

You mean X-Wing and Armada, as those are the only two games that come from FFG that are painted and don't really require any terrain.

If you can't understand why someone may prefer a game like Legion even unpainted and with fairly simple terrain over those two games... Then there's no point in discussing it with you, because the answer is so painfully self obvious no one can really fail to see it.  Which mean you'd have to be intentionally obtuse, and people like that aren't worth bothering with.

Edited by VanorDM

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1 minute ago, VanorDM said:

You mean X-Wing and Armada, as those are the only two games that come from FFG that are painted and don't really require any terrain.

If you can't understand why someone may prefer a game like Legion even unpainted and with fairly simple terrain over those two games... Then there's no point in discussing it with you, because the answer is so painfully self obvious no one can really fail to see it.  Which mean you'd have to be intentionally obtuse, and people like that aren't worth bothering with.

Except people do prefer X-Wing and Armada over Imperial Assault for those very reasons. You think it is all about me, it is not. Take some time off being a snowflake and attacking me the horrible villain so you'll have time to take a real assessment of the gaming community. Maybe then you'll understand the points I am making, or not.

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Well, except that unpainted wargames are a fair larger market than pre-painted, including X-Wing. People DO like them, and they have been massively successful for decades.

And please, nobody bring up that cursed ICv2 chart with x-wing at the top. That doesn't show what people always say it does, and it doesn't show that x-wing is the biggest game around. It's been explained dozens of times and I'm not interested in doing so again.

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16 minutes ago, Mep said:

Except people do prefer X-Wing and Armada over Imperial Assault for those very reasons. You think it is all about me, it is not. Take some time off being a snowflake and attacking me the horrible villain so you'll have time to take a real assessment of the gaming community. Maybe then you'll understand the points I am making, or not.

You are seriously calling people snowflakes?  Come on man...  This is a forum full of people excited about this game.  You coming along and telling everyone its a piece of **** and that we should not be excited and then calling people snowflakes?  That's just dumb.  The point you seem to be making is "be sad about Legion" and I am not going to do that.  It is a game that fits my interests.  If you really want to just keep trash talking this game then do it somewhere else.  You are not offering any solutions to these perceived problems with the game.  I just don't understand what you are trying to accomplish here.  The game is what it is and at a certain point you just have to accept that and move on.  If you do not like it there are 5 other star wars game to choose from.  IA, Armada, X-wing, Rebellion or the Star Wars LCG may be what you are looking for.  Not everyone has to agree on everything.  This whole thread is silly.  If you want to talk about how great X-Wing is then go to the X-Wing forum and start a thread about how you think Legion is going to fail.  If you truly want to play Legion and DONT want it to fail then stop discouraging people and maybe actually teach somebody to paint or build terrain!  I have never built terrain before and in the last week I have built a house, a hill and some barrels!  

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Mep.... Here is the thing, Miniature games depend on multiple things to be successful and being grey plastic will not stop it from being successful, **** even bad rules won't stop a game from being successful just look at the ups and down Warhammer 40K has had with bad rules. I've played everything from Wahammer Fantasy to Flames of War to Infinity and what kills a game is not the fact you have to paint it, its really comes down to the community and how your local store supports it. If there is no support it becomes a niche game that a few play but if you do support it the game will flourish I just watched a 40k community go from about 20 regulars to over 80 people that mostly had never played a miniature game or picked up a brush and that happened because the store supported the game and help players learn the game and even had painting demos so people could have fully painted armies. We are currently in talks with our store to do a big Legion push when it is released so we can have a large community with it as well. The Star Wars IP can hold this game alone but with Store and Community backing it can get to huge heights and FFG has learned many lessons from X-Wing, Armada and Rune Wars to make this successful but if people like you keep trying to drag it down with these negative things how can you expect the community to grow and succeed?

Now can we stop beating this dead horse and let this Thread Die like it should have 6 pages ago....   

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Why would someone play with an unpainted soldier vs a painted X-wing?

Does that seriously need to be explained? They are different games. How did that need to be spelled out for anyone?

The scale of the games are different, the scope of the games are different, the subject matter is different, the mechanics are different.

Armada and X-wing aren't the same game just because they are painted miniature games. While there is overlap between the two playerbases, there are absolutely players of one that have no interest in or outright don't enjoy the other.

A game that tries to simulate dog fighting with a fairly small amount of models and a prescribed movement system is going to be a completely different experience then a ground combat game centered around combined arms objective combat is going to be leagues apart from the other.

This isn't rocket science. Those two vastly different games are going to appeal to different people, painting irrelevant.

People play games with unpainted miniatures, because the games themselves appeal to them. This isn't a new thing.

Oh all the absolutely malarkey in this thread posing that question takes the cake. Jesus H Christ.

Edited by ScottieATF

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3 hours ago, Mep said:

See. that is the thing. FFG has other SW games that use miniatures. Yes one can enjoy Legion without paint or terrain and in a vacuum that is fine. However there are the other SW games that are more complete if you aren't going to paint and make terrain. So if you aren't going to embrace the game fully, why bother when you have other choices you can embrace fully, other than Legion is the new pretty everyone is excited about? Why would anyone play with a unpainted tin soldier when they can buy a painted X-wing? Yes, at the beginning a lot of people will show up, play this game and once the newness has worn off they will go back to X-Wing or Armada or Destiny.  You guys seriously think people are going to play with books and unpainted minis when they turn their noses up at a game like Imperial Assault because the minis aren't painted? I am sure Legion will be as big of a success as Imperial Assault, and that is to say not many people will be playing it, but it will do much better than Runewars, which is to say some people will actually be playing it. Thinking a bunch of people will abandon X-Wing and show up with unpainted minis and books at league night 4 months after release is just silly. I will agree a few people may stick with it that have no interest in the hobby side, but I am sure they will be borrowing terrain whenever they can.

BTW, everyone is superficial to some extent and the general populace is rather superficial which is a point I am making here others just want to dismiss. The whole reason people are excited about this game is because of SW, which is a pretty superficial reason right there. It is also the same reason this game will sizzle and never get hot.

I played imperial assault for a few years and it never bothered me that the figures were not painted. I painted a few but was fine using unpainted stuff.   This is a game and the most important part will be the mechanics and gameplay, not how awesome the terrain looks.  Give me an official ffg playmat and a few pieces of cover and I will enjoy the game just fine.

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